Help me kill Eldar (they always kick my butt)

[ShinyRhino]

Umm... shiny rhino, a vehicle can turn as often as it likes during its move... BRB pg. 57.

 

Though yeah... Id say to watch anyone for where they measure for their models in the move... it gets damn frustrating.

 

Oops! Better not try to enforce that one then! :D

[Voltaire]

Just out of curiosity aren't auto-cannons great for killing elves? I've heard that said before.

 

 

Assault cannons are definitely worthwhile against elves... Well really anything.

[ShinyRhino]

I'd say autocannons are indeed good for killing Space Elves infantry. They'll insta-kill most (all?) of their special characters on a failed save, so you won't see them soaking many of those wounds there. Each hit should drop a model, unless they're in cover, or you roll 1s to wound.

Now, against their tanks, they're a different story. Predator-mounted autocannons are subject to the Lance hits, effectively losing 1AV to return lance fire. A RifleDread is probably a better choice, as it can move, fire, and doesn't lose anything to a Lance hit (AV12 anyways). Venerable Dreads damn near guarantee four hits per turn with their dual-autocannons (BS5, twin-linked). Plus, they have the luxury of forcing a reroll of the dice on return hits.

 

However, autcannons need to get 5+ on your AP rolls to affect Eldar tanks on a successful hit. With only two shots out of a Predator a turn, youmight be better off firing that into something else, like their jetbikes, warwalkers, or Vypers.

Venerable RifleDreads have a much better chance of getting through the AV12, though I still wouldn't rely on it for tank-hunting, since Eldar will shuffle their tanks around for a 4+ cover save, and boost them with Fortune.

 

Autocannons DO outrange Eldar return fire, though. Assault cannons do not.

 

I love me some assault cannons, though. Four shots that will carve up Eldar armor saves, and auto-pen Eldar tanks on a successful AP hit. No glances, ever!

 

 

In my very limited experience (4-5 games against Space Elves, ever), the trick against Eldar is cracking the Wave Serpents. No Eldar player in his/her right mind is going to just park their infantry in the open. Eldar builds always seem to be full-mech in Serpents/Falcons with various support units, or a Skimmer Shuffle force (jetbikes, Vypers, etc). You need somethng that will bust open the transports either after the infantry has hopped out to fire, or when they're on the move. Missile launchers feel like the best choice, because they have the 48" range, don't suffer a reduction in S against Void Shields or whatever those things are, and have a secondary mode of fire (frag burst) that can put the hurt on the disembarked infantry.

Meltas are too short-ranged, and don't get their 2d6 AP rolls. Lascannons lose 1S against the shields. Plasmacannons are only S7, and scatter. Heavy bolters can't dent the AV12. Assault cannons have short range, but DO get an auto-pen if they manage to affect the tank. Autocannons have range, but a low ROF, thoughthey are often twin-linked.

[Koremu]

Actually, the only Eldar special character who is T3 is Yriel.

 

Eldrad is T4, and the Phoenix Lords are both T4 and Eternal Warrior.

 

Conventional Farseers, yes, are only T3.

[Voltaire]

So why not simply sit with Devestator squads armed with missiles? Then have Dreadnought's with Dual-autocannon's support them alongside your tacticals.

 

For mobility use unupgraded razorback en-masse, tacticals included.

[ShinyRhino]

So why not simply sit with Devestator squads armed with missiles? Then have Dreadnought's with Dual-autocannon's support them alongside your tacticals.

 

For mobility use unupgraded razorback en-masse, tacticals included.

 

I found that squads in the open (not in a tank) are Bladestorm bait. I was seeing Guide placed on a Dire Avenger squad, and Doom on my Devvies. Added up to a whole lot of armor saves on my part. However, I didn't have the Dreads as a bodyguard. That may deter your enemy from landing his Wave Serpent right in front of your Devvies, and instead landing at 18" or so to avoid the Dreads' assault.

I like that idea. Hmmm.

[Frizzle]

As I said earlier in the thread:

Fortune does not give re-rollable invuls, just rerolls on saves.

 

I suggest you re-read page 28 of the Eldar Codex. The reading of fortune doesn't leave room for debate, all saves can be re-rolled

 

One thing to remember with Eldar powers, Fortune Guide and Doom, have to be cast at the start of the turn.

 

As for tactics, I suggest you turtle up your army and shoot anything that gets out of wave serpents. These kind of Eldar armies are hard to beat, but equally hard to win with. Until he disembarks he is not able to put out to much hurt, and when he does disembark he is extremely vulnerable. Keeping your troops mounted is always a good tactic. Effective weapons are Autocannons and Assault cannons. Also heavy flamers can clear all of their troops and most of their aspect warriors in one go and seer council require a massive amount of bolter fire, but their t3 does make them vulnerable.

 

Don't take heavy armour or dreadnought. THey will blow it up and give a target for fire dragons. Fire Dragons can easily be killed in assault even by like 2 marines and a sargeant with a close combat weapon(powerfist/weapon). The real problem is brining down their tanks. Krak missles are the most effective weapon but if you are able to get it melta from the rear is golden. Assault terminators with storm shields are also hard for them to deal with so if you park them on the objective they'll have a hard time clearing them off(even howling banshee's lose).

 

Just keep the objective in mind and your units close together, if he wants to kill something, be sure you are able to retaliate and he will be hesitant to disembark. Shoot aspect warriors when you see them ;-)

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

As I said earlier in the thread:

Fortune does not give re-rollable invuls, just rerolls on saves.

 

I suggest you re-read page 28 of the Eldar Codex. The reading of fortune doesn't leave room for debate, all saves can be re-rolled

Invuls are a form of save...Fortune doesn't "give" you an invul if you don't have one :huh:

[Frizzle]

They way you wrote it implies that you are under the impression you can only re-roll normal armour saves from fortune not invulnurable ones.

 

I guess I misunderstood you ;-)

[averykess]

"The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him." - Sun Tzu.

 

In general, exploit the specialized nature of the eldar units. Engage the ranged specialists in close combat, shoot the assault specialists.

 

There are some pretty good suggestions above. I'd add the following:

 

Assault Cannon equipped Landspeeders are mobile enough to plug holes in your lines and will make the eldar troops keep their heads down. If your opponent fears/hates Assault Cannons (as one of my former regular opponents did) you can also use them as bait and force them out of position.

[terminatorAM]

so as a general tactic if im using a primarily mounted force should it do which of the following on the first turn:

1) stay put and shoot at vehicles out of the roofs; or

2) rush forward full speed to make disembarking even scarier for them deploying in rapid fire range

[Grey Mage]

You have Range on 90% of Eldar Units, take advantage of that fact to try and counteract their speed.

 

In other words- disembarking is scary... but not if the eldar player isnt around to be shot at. Shoot him when you have the chance, the first time.

[thade]

So I played said opponent again and fielded admittedly a not-so-solid list (I had zero time to think about it and decided to try and field something he wasn't expecting...didn't avail me).

 

The things that worked:

 

Whirlwind: omg this thing was gold. I sat it behind a building corner of the map and forced at least eight leadership checks with it alone. He made EVERY leadership check he had to, which was annoying, but I did force a lot of them with long range fire.

 

Long range fire: Even 24" bolter shots worked well, killing a few Eldar a turn. I had a pretty stable firebase which worked wonders.

 

The things that didn't work:

 

I failed to pop a single vehicle. The most stupid thing I did is I rushed in my airborne vanguard (first mistake, i shouldn't have made them airborne...I just wanted them to fly with my airborne chaplain) in and FORGOT THAT THE CHAPLAIN ALLOWS YOU TO REROLL MISSED HITS. >_< Well, they didn't manage to pop the wave serpent, but likely would have if I'd have rerolled all of those misses (there were many).

 

I rolled my land raider in with a five-man sternguard. My first time with sternguard, it was a pretty devestating drive by. The flamestorms on the raider fried half of a unit of Dire Avengers, and the sternguard (with the plasma-like shots, and two real plasma guns) fried half again, leaving them with five soldiers and a farseer. Sadly, they bladestormed immediately after and wiped my sternguard off the table. The landraider followed in a blaze of firedragon fury (they were riding in the previously mentioned serpent that my assault squad failed to pop.

 

That was easily 600 points I could have played far closer to my chest and just porcupined (which has worked okay against Eldar in the past), but I can't help thinking that some cheaper models launched into the midst kept them at a distance for my ranged fire base to do it's damage. If I were to change the list, I would buy another whirlwind (or two), stick another tac squad in the fire base, maybe an anti-infantry devestator squad, and just hosed them on their way in.

 

I have a predator in a box I want to build as a Dakka. I also have a built and painted vindicator that I could field, but I did not this time around.

 

This game was Weds and I've been painting dwarves for the past two days...so my memory of the game is a bit dodgy...but his list was much what I described...

 

Farseer with a full team of dire avengers, mounted in something.

Autarch on a bike with 3 bike Eldar.

Wraithlord, all ranged. (bright lance I think)

Guardian Squad (came in on turn 4, foot-slogging; they got the warm end of my whirlwind but didn't break)

Eldar Snipers/Rangers

3 Dark Reapers...and holy damn that exarch is annoying...the two AP3 templates are stupid as hell. I killed him with Telion.

Striking Scorpions, 12 I think...my ranged fire base chewed them down to three models over three turns, and they passed every single one of their morale checks.

 

I had:

- tac squad with plasma cannon, melta gun, power fist...combat squaded with 4 bolter marines and a PC in the top of a building, and the other five on the bottom.

- tac squad with plasma cannon, melta gun, power fist, in a rhino..rolled in on turn 4 and did a drive by on the disembarked fire dragons...a very poorly rolled drive by, only killed 3 of them. Made me think I should've forgone on the heavy weapon and given them a plasma gun

- whirlwind

- ven dread with MM/SB; he held the line on my fire base very well. In retrospect, I would've liked another dread.

- land speeder with MM/HB...hid until turn 2, blazed outside at full speed, hoping the 4+ cover would keep him alive to pop the fire dragon transport. It did not.

- five sniper scouts, Telion and a ML. Lost the three snipers on the first turn to Eldar sniper shooting. Survived the rest of the game killing 2-3 models a turn.

- flying vanguard, lit claw, powerfist, storm shield...7 marines strong if I recall. Flying Chaplain. These guys died in an embarrassing way.

- land raider redeemer with 5 man sternguard in it. The stupidest set up ever. I should've put the sternguard in the firebase and either put the vanguard in the raider, or just gone without the raider/vanguard.

[Grey Mage]

Striking Scorpions are units of 5-10, like almost all aspect warriors- so I hope he didnt have 12 :lol:.

 

Dont forget your whirlwind is ordnance barrage- wich means its pinning at -1 Ld!

 

I would not have taken the landraider to be honest- you could get 10 sterngaurd for its price, and theyd kill alot more IMHO.

 

DakkaPred would probly not hurt in the least either.

[thade]

Striking Scorpions are units of 5-10, like almost all aspect warriors- so I hope he didnt have 12 :).

 

I could've sworn he had 12; I wonder if he made a mistake. Does the Exarch count against that limit of 10?

 

 

Dont forget your whirlwind is ordnance barrage- wich means its pinning at -1 Ld!

 

I *ALWAYS* forget Pinning checks!!! Let alone that Ordnance is -1 Ld for that purpose. :) Oye. SO. MANY. RULES.

 

I would not have taken the landraider to be honest- you could get 10 sterngaurd for its price, and theyd kill alot more IMHO.

 

DakkaPred would probly not hurt in the least either.

 

Yeah, I kicked myself for it almost immediately after we started the game, even with it deploying in Turn 3. I think 10 Stern Guard would've been a very nice addition to my ranged fire base.

 

I'm gonna write PINNING on my hand or something. I guarantee I forgot to force Pinning checks for Telion's kills at least once or twice. Maybe the insides of my eye lids.

[Grey Mage]

Exarch is an Upgrade to one of the models, like making a command squad veteran the company champion. So, no.. its 9+ Exarch, or 10 total.

 

Just right a note next to the WW on your army list *pinning, -1 and youll remember alot more often. That second leadership test could really change the game around for you... adding insult to injury on pathfinders is always beautiful.

[Commander Proteus]

I agree with Grey Mage on the Dakka Pred. Volume is one of your best friends against Eldar! Range is like the girl who tags along with said best friend. Eldar is like the envious yet prickly one who gets royally pissed at the two of them.

 

Devastators with either heavy bolters, plasma, or missile launchers will work wonders on infantry, and the few tanks they use can be brought down with a lascannon or two.

 

Rely on their low Ld for guardian units and small aspects. Eldar actually run in a lot of instances.

 

-Proteus

[Koremu]

The Trick to killing Aspect Warriors is simple. Engage them with a Tactical Squad, and do whatever it is that the Aspect Warrior isn't cripplingly overspecialised at.

 

Getting the Tactical Squad there is the issue.

[thade]

The Trick to killing Aspect Warriors is simple. Engage them with a Tactical Squad, and do whatever it is that the Aspect Warrior isn't cripplingly overspecialised at.

 

Getting the Tactical Squad there is the issue.

 

Oye, he is *so* remarkably good at putting his squads precisely where they are most viable; what probably hurts me the most is that, while I understand their strengths very well, I have little comprehension of their exploitable weaknesses. I suppose if an Eldar unit is not a melee unit (banshees, scorps, maybe dire avengers) I should charge it with tacticals or anything as I'll prob win the assault? My next list will have two Whirlwinds in it (with said note next to the models themselves), probably a cheap techmarine for Bolster and repairs, the snipers again, probably a sternguard I play at range, tacticals I play at range, and terminators I play at range. Hole up in building(s) and shell like crazy.

 

It's a plan, if not a very crafty one.

[Koremu]

Aspect Warriors are weak at everything except the thing they are cripplingly overspecialised at. That's the point of crippling overspecialisation.

 

Dire Avengers, btw, are NOT good in CC. At least, not compared to Marines. We have them beat in S, T and Sv. They do have some nasty tricks - Defensive Grenades and some high Init Power Weapons, mostly. Your best bet is to do unto them as they would do unto you - shoot first, charge second and never ask questions.

 

The CC Aspects are Scorpions, Banshees and Spears.

[minigun762]

How important is long range firepower to beating Eldar? Time and time again I hear that relying on Rhino mounted squads is setting yourself up for failure no matter how many Meltaguns you have.

[terminatorAM]

from my experiances long rang firepower is critical in the first 2 or 3 turns. u need it to take out transports and at least stun falcons. meltas are great but you need to get really close which usually require some fancy footwork, and seriously you cant out manuver eldar so dont try.

at range you're likely out of his effective killing zone for awhile so to answer your question directly: yes long range weapons are VERY important, but just keep in mind they will only be useful for a few turns until they engage u up close so try to have a balance of long rang, mid range, and counter-assault elements in your army

[Grey Mage]

Aspect Warriors are weak at everything except the thing they are cripplingly overspecialised at. That's the point of crippling overspecialisation.

 

Dire Avengers, btw, are NOT good in CC. At least, not compared to Marines. We have them beat in S, T and Sv. They do have some nasty tricks - Defensive Grenades and some high Init Power Weapons, mostly. Your best bet is to do unto them as they would do unto you - shoot first, charge second and never ask questions.

 

The CC Aspects are Scorpions, Banshees and Spears.

Dire Avengers dont have defensive grenades- they do have a power that subtracts 1 attack from all enemies in BtB though, as long as the exarch is alive.

 

How important is long range firepower to beating Eldar? Time and time again I hear that relying on Rhino mounted squads is setting yourself up for failure no matter how many Meltaguns you have.

Very important- Autocannons and Missile Launchers will make your break you against mounted Eldar. Rhion Squads might as well hand over their transports KPs at the start unless the eldar player is a moron.

 

Whats the first thing you do as a fast army against a slower opponent? Take away whatever speed he does have, so you can then beat the heck out of what you want where you want.

[Koremu]

Dire Avengers dont have defensive grenades- they do have a power that subtracts 1 attack from all enemies in BtB though, as long as the exarch is alive.

 

Whats the first thing you do as a fast army against a slower opponent? Take away whatever speed he does have, so you can then beat the heck out of what you want where you want.

Meh. DAs only ever see one round of combat, so Defensive Grenades and Distract (or w/e it is called) are effectively the same.

 

And the second is the reason that Bikes are so useful against Eldar.

[spartan249]

I play an eldar player quite often, and he's a Harlequin fan... mechanized up quite a bit, and quite annoying.

 

Eldrad with some warlocks

2 squads of Dire avengers in a wave serpent

1 squad of fire dragons in a Falcon

2 squads of Harlequins in wave serpents

2 fire prisms

 

Against this, I field the following:

 

2000 pts "Dread Spam"

HQ

Master of the Forge: Conversion Beamer, Bike - 155 pts

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Mgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 225 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Mgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 225 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 marines, Mgun, Lascannon, Razorback - 225 pts

Elites

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons - 125 pts

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons - 125 pts

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons - 125 pts

Heavy Support

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons - 125 pts

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons - 125 pts

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons - 125 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron: 2x MM/HF - 140 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2x MM/HF - 140 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2x MM/HF - 140 pts

 

Butchers his mech eldar list every time, and he's never happy when his harlequins are sweeping advanced by a random dreadnought. (happened twice... >.>)