glayvin34 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but grey hunters get a CC weapon, a bolt pistol and a bolter as standard wargear. Does this mean that if they fire their bolters, then are assaulted, they get the +1 attack for having two CC weapons? If so, that's fine, but it gives the unit the benefits of a standard tactical squad and a standard assault squad for less points. I guess they're no options for heavy weapons or jump packs, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 That is the case yes. They don't have a sergeant though and are Ld8. If you wanna give them a Pack Leader then they won't fit in a Rhino if you want that 2nd special weapon so there are draw backs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2248192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yes, just like Chaos Marines- they get all three weapons, and can use whatever is appropriate for the situation. Note the Wolf Gaurd and Bloodclaws do not get all three weapons, bloodclaws only getting BP+CCW, and WG getting their choice of two weapons. So only GHs get this flexability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2248199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glayvin34 Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 Hm. Sometimes I wonder if they make each codex able to kick the previous codex's butt in order to get people to buy their models... I hope Blood Angels get as much lovin as the Wolves did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2248203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Hm. Sometimes I wonder if they make each codex able to kick the previous codex's butt in order to get people to buy their models...I hope Blood Angels get as much lovin as the Wolves did. *Sighs* Sometimes I wonder if players would say these things if they actually played both armies. Yeah, sure... Space Wolves get triple weapons... and in return they lose combat squads, heavy weapons, only get one free special if they dont take a seargent that takes up an elite slot in wich case they get none and only have leadership 8, wich means their less likely to be able to use their fixed chapter tactic of counter-attack. Id say its a close trade, and in a close game against most xenos the codex boys come ahead with their free firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2248245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Hm. Sometimes I wonder if they make each codex able to kick the previous codex's butt in order to get people to buy their models...I hope Blood Angels get as much lovin as the Wolves did. *Sighs* Sometimes I wonder if players would say these things if they actually played both armies. Yeah, sure... Space Wolves get triple weapons... and in return they lose combat squads, heavy weapons, only get one free special if they dont take a seargent that takes up an elite slot in wich case they get none and only have leadership 8, wich means their less likely to be able to use their fixed chapter tactic of counter-attack. Id say its a close trade, and in a close game against most xenos the codex boys come ahead with their free firepower. Not when you count it by point value, but thats an argument for another section and another time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2248409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yeah, sure... Space Wolves get triple weapons... and in return they lose combat squads, heavy weapons, only get one free special if they dont take a seargent that takes up an elite slot in wich case they get none and only have leadership 8, wich means their less likely to be able to use their fixed chapter tactic of counter-attack. Id say its a close trade, and in a close game against most xenos the codex boys come ahead with their free firepower. That sounds a bit like Grey Hunters cannot get the first special weapon regardless of size (the flamer for free), or one plasma pistol on top of that. And then there is the option for one special CCW, which I dare say replaces the heavy weapon (it least it does for Templars), so the second free special weapon is really more of an extra, if you should ever decide to field 10 Grey Hunters. You get all those other options for a minimum squad as well though. I would also go ahead ans say that the heavy weapon of a tactical squad is rarely game deciding, where having 30 attacks instead of 10 when being attacked by a mob of Orks, a brood of Genestealers or a squad of Whiches will probably be a big difference. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2248437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yeah, sure... Space Wolves get triple weapons... and in return they lose combat squads, heavy weapons, only get one free special if they dont take a seargent that takes up an elite slot in wich case they get none and only have leadership 8, wich means their less likely to be able to use their fixed chapter tactic of counter-attack. Id say its a close trade, and in a close game against most xenos the codex boys come ahead with their free firepower. That sounds a bit like Grey Hunters cannot get the first special weapon regardless of size (the flamer for free), or one plasma pistol on top of that. And then there is the option for one special CCW, which I dare say replaces the heavy weapon (it least it does for Templars), so the second free special weapon is really more of an extra, if you should ever decide to field 10 Grey Hunters. You get all those other options for a minimum squad as well though. I would also go ahead ans say that the heavy weapon of a tactical squad is rarely game deciding, where having 30 attacks instead of 10 when being attacked by a mob of Orks, a brood of Genestealers or a squad of Whiches will probably be a big difference. No, the PP and SCCW are equivilant to what C:SM sargents can get, and for the same price, with fewer attacks on the SCCW. Its no replacement for a heavy weapon. The second special weapon is more like the heavy weapon, but with less flexability. And I agree... the extra attacks are wonderful, but so is LD 9, fleet, and Outflanking... or the ability to run away if you want to. *shrugs*. As for heavy weapons- its not my fault if most codex players seem incapable of using them in an intellegent fashion, they are simply amazing to me when I use them. But to clarify- a fully equiped Tactial Squad in a Rhino costs about 240pts, a Similarly Equiped *including WG to sub in for the sarge* GH unit will cost you about 250pts. SWs will have the edge in CC, Tacs will have the edge in shooting. All Im really saying is they are roughly equivilant in ability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yeah, sure... Space Wolves get triple weapons... and in return they lose combat squads, heavy weapons, only get one free special if they dont take a seargent that takes up an elite slot in wich case they get none and only have leadership 8, wich means their less likely to be able to use their fixed chapter tactic of counter-attack. Id say its a close trade, and in a close game against most xenos the codex boys come ahead with their free firepower. That sounds a bit like Grey Hunters cannot get the first special weapon regardless of size (the flamer for free), or one plasma pistol on top of that. And then there is the option for one special CCW, which I dare say replaces the heavy weapon (it least it does for Templars), so the second free special weapon is really more of an extra, if you should ever decide to field 10 Grey Hunters. You get all those other options for a minimum squad as well though. I would also go ahead ans say that the heavy weapon of a tactical squad is rarely game deciding, where having 30 attacks instead of 10 when being attacked by a mob of Orks, a brood of Genestealers or a squad of Whiches will probably be a big difference. ;) No, the PP and SCCW are equivilant to what C:SM sargents can get, and for the same price, with fewer attacks on the SCCW. Its no replacement for a heavy weapon. The second special weapon is more like the heavy weapon, but with less flexability. And I agree... the extra attacks are wonderful, but so is LD 9, fleet, and Outflanking... or the ability to run away if you want to. *shrugs*. As for heavy weapons- its not my fault if most codex players seem incapable of using them in an intellegent fashion, they are simply amazing to me when I use them. But to clarify- a fully equiped Tactial Squad in a Rhino costs about 240pts, a Similarly Equiped *including WG to sub in for the sarge* GH unit will cost you about 250pts. SWs will have the edge in CC, Tacs will have the edge in shooting. All Im really saying is they are roughly equivilant in ability. I am not sure how you are getting those numbers. 10hunters =150+2 plasmaguns=10+wolfgard=18+fist for wolfguard=20+rhino=35. Thats 233 total. Codex is 10 marines =170+plasmagun and missle launcher=10+fist=25+rhino=35=240. wolves have 11 infantry and transport, codex has 10 dudes and a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 The SW have a transport they can't get in. And you can't just buy a single Wolf Guard. So if you have 2 troop choices then you're buying a guy you don't need. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 No, the PP and SCCW are equivilant to what C:SM sargents can get And then they get a second (cheaper) sergeant on top of that one. Its no replacement for a heavy weapon. It is for Templars, so I would see that as analogue. And I agree... the extra attacks are wonderful, but so is LD 9, fleet, and Outflanking... or the ability to run away if you want to. And again you are talking as if Grey Hunter squads did not have access to a LD9 squad leader. Instead of fleet and outflanking Soace Wolves get the ability to re-roll who picks deployment zones. Neither of these abilities will I likely ever witness in action, as I do not use special characters. As for heavy weapons- its not my fault if most codex players seem incapable of using them in an intellegent fashion, they are simply amazing to me when I use them. Oh, heavy weapons can do wonderous things. The question is whether you are condemning a 200 points 10 men tactical squad to remain stationary for one movement phase and assault phase so that you can shoot the heavy weapon at a heavier target, or whether you are firing the heavy weapon from a dedicated devastator squad, tank, Terminator or other unit whose purpose it is to fire these type of weapon or who are not otherwise incapacitated for the whole turn. Actually, Grey Hunters can get a Wolf Guard leader with Cyclone missile launcher. You couldn't ride in a Rhino anymore, but if you were planning to make good use of the squad's heavy weapon you were probably not planning on that anyway, were you? But to clarify- a fully equiped Tactial Squad in a Rhino costs about 240pts, a Similarly Equiped *including WG to sub in for the sarge* GH unit will cost you about 250pts. SWs will have the edge in CC, Tacs will have the edge in shooting. All Im really saying is they are roughly equivilant in ability. I don't feel that a single heavy weapon in a 10 men squad quite compares to roughly 30 attacks when being assaulted instead of the 10 a tactical squad gets. Edit: I am not sure how you are getting those numbers. 10hunters =150+2 plasmaguns=10+wolfgard=18+fist for wolfguard=20+rhino=35. Thats 233 total. Codex is 10 marines =170+plasmagun and missle launcher=10+fist=25+rhino=35=240. wolves have 11 infantry and transport, codex has 10 dudes and a transport. I assume he is going with 9 Grey Hunters and an additional powerfist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachocuban Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 If both units stood still to fire their bolters to full effect in the previous turns, chances are the SM will have whittled down more of the enemy squad than the SW's with their heavy and will need less attacks, or have forced the enemy unit to fall back and not get assaulted at all. Also a sergeant can get 3 attacks himself IIRC, at least 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 I don't think the heavy weapon of the tactical squad will kill 100-200% more enemy models than the Grey Hunters will only via their boltguns. For example, 10 tacticals with a missile launcher will kill about 5 Orks at long range (8 at short range), while 10 Grey Hunters with boltguns will kill about 3 Orks at long range (6 at short range). But if the Orks were to assault the Marines, the 10 tacticals would kill about 2 of them before they got to strike, while the Space Wolves with a successful leadership test (72% without a WG) would kill about 6. And this can mean the difference between losing and winning the combat, as now the Orks in turn would have fewer attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Fair and Balanced Bayybee, Fair and Balanced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 That claim is allways true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Since 2nd ed. Space Wolf TROOPS have always been superior, it is just the way it is. Tacticals just are not a punchy TROOP choice. When you consider that cc is more game-winning than shooting (a broad statement I know) Tacticals are not heroic enough in cc. Ork boyz roll them ~ their pathetic 1a just won't kill enough of them. They don't actually kill that many Tau Fire Warriors in cc and lose to them in a shoot out. Tacticals are just lame. Sorry ;) BA, SW and BT were my final three for deciding which chapter to play because they can have TROOPS that are melee focused. Much more like what a Marine army should be like ~ I need cc, then let me choose it. I want shooting, then let me choose it. Considering that Guilliman is supposed to have a good brain and yet Chaos and 3 Chapters have better TROOPS means he never played a game of 40K. :) GW says he has a great military brain, well sorry GW, you haven't made that transition from fluff to the tabletop for him. I think that actually contributes to Ultra-bashing. GW has really hamstrung Codex Marines with a lame TROOP choice which are very rigid. Not really fluffy considering who the Astartes are supposed to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 I think combat squads and combat tactics already make them more interesting. It is just that additional CCWs top that by the sheer increase in power. Add counter assault and you have one powerful unit. The difference between 1 attack when being charged or 3 attacks when charged ist just huge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2249321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Remember, to get that one Wolf Guard into our Grey Hunter pack, I need to pay for two additional Wolf Guard as well as use up one of my elite slots. So 54 extra points and a FOC slot to get a "sergeant" into my Grey Hunter pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2271282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Well, if your Space Wolves army includes only one single squad of infantry, then that's probably a bummer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2271342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Well, if your Space Wolves army includes only one single squad of infantry, then that's probably a bummer. But the point is instead of having three slots available for scouts (which rock) or Dreadnoughts pretty much one is given away boosting another pack. I don't remember as many people having issues when a Grey Hunter cost 21 points compared to a 16 point similarly equipped model. It works both ways. Tactical Marines rock, Grey Hunters rock, they rock in different ways but they're fairly comparable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2271352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I gotta try the game where Tactical Marines rock. Well, I guess when you are used to Guardsmen and start your first Marine army they will appear pretty awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2271357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hmmm.... this has long expired the original Official Rules issues. Also, careful with the models and wargear points shopping list. In an army list that would be editied out, for discussion purposes here (despite being well off-topic) it can stay, But that's it, topic closed. Send me a PM if you have a burning need to add anything of relevance to the original rules query. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/189793-do-grey-hunters-get-an-extra-attack-and-get-to-use-a-bolter/#findComment-2271363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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