Bug Hunting

[The Black Watch]

Having said that, there is some compelling evidence on page 21 and 22 of the BRB that indicates cover saves are only from shooting attacks. I'm on the fence again now....

[Giga]

The way I see it, the standard tyrant is good... But swarmlord is just so much better for the cost, it just doesn't justify taking the standard tyrant. It's basically like Vulkan vs Standard Captain. Captain with same gear (minus the heavy flamer and master crafted wep) costs 170 pts, while Vulkan costs 20 points more. From a purely competitive point of view, there's just no reason to ever take the captain (unless yer running him on a bike, but that's a different story).

 

 

 

Anyway, a buddy sent a mail to the GW support concerning the Doom question. Here's what they replied;

Hi Petar

 

I will try and answer these questions as best I can. Having read the rules for the Soul Leech we have come to the conclusion that the power cannot effect embarked units as it cannot effect vehicles and as they are within the vehicle and not actually on the table they will not be effected. However as the rule does not specifiy that it only effects unengaged models so all enemy models engaged in close combat will be effected by Soul Leech.

 

I imagine there will be an official FAQ at some point but please use the above as guidelines.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Rich Taylor

Games Workshop

I know their support isn't exactly reliable, but it's nice to have something like this. :rolleyes:

[The Black Watch]

The way I see it, the standard tyrant is good... But swarmlord is just so much better for the cost, it just doesn't justify taking the standard tyrant. It's basically like Vulkan vs Standard Captain. Captain with same gear (minus the heavy flamer and master crafted wep) costs 170 pts, while Vulkan costs 20 points more. From a purely competitive point of view, there's just no reason to ever take the captain (unless yer running him on a bike, but that's a different story).

I see your point. Maybe its just me then. I've never been in a tournament either so can't say I pick my lists to be super-awesome.

 

Anyway, a buddy sent a mail to the GW support concerning the Doom question. Here's what they replied;

Hi Petar

 

I will try and answer these questions as best I can. Having read the rules for the Soul Leech we have come to the conclusion that the power cannot effect embarked units as it cannot effect vehicles and as they are within the vehicle and not actually on the table they will not be effected. However as the rule does not specifiy that it only effects unengaged models so all enemy models engaged in close combat will be effected by Soul Leech.

 

I imagine there will be an official FAQ at some point but please use the above as guidelines.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Rich Taylor

Games Workshop

I know their support isn't exactly reliable, but it's nice to have something like this. ^_^

Ha now ask them 3 more times and I bet you get 3 completely different answers. Those guys are clueless and if they can't even tell the difference between 'effect' and 'affect' what hope have we got that they can interprete a rulebook? I appreciate your friends' efforts but I put no faith in that answer at all until something official is released. The easiest way to deal with all these disputed issues is to roll a D6 at the start of the battle to decide whether it will or it won't. I don't think it's going to have that big an impact.

[Captain Idaho]

Tyrannofex is scary when shooting at your Landraider and other armoured vehicles but I don't think it is too much of a priority for us really. It is still going to require a 5 to penetrate a Landraider and is being fired on a BS3 platform so we should be ok for a while. I haven't faced one of course but I would rather kill a Hive Tyrant and reap the benefits. I reserve judgement on it for now.

 

Standard Tyrant is golden but the Swarm Lord is a diamond! Apart from a comparison in stats , the Swarm Lord has other perks such as being better at killing models with Invulnerable saves, causing instant death in assault, greater synapse, ability to use 2 powers a turn, an invulnerable save, benefits to reserves and lastly (but not least) the ability to add some skills (including prefered enemy) to a single unit within 18". This Tyrant is worth the points big time!

 

Question is, how should we kill the thing!

 

Mark my words, there are some power builds in this Codex we haven't seen yet, because they haven't been polished and implemented by people who know what they're doing. When we do start running into them, however, I predict it's going to be very tricky. I'm concerned with an army that leaves me very few options as an opponent, except to shoot whatever he chooses to present to me. The synergy in the 'Dex already rivals Eldar, and even the humble hormagaunt is frightening when he's being given preferred enemy, and sent after a squad of Marines who've just been nailed with Paroxysm.

 

Any 120 point squad which can inflict 22 wounds on the charge at I-5 is something to be leery of

 

Not sure I 100% agree with you. Yes those Hormagaunts are nasty and all, but they are T3 and have poor saves. They die easy and rely on synapse or they flee even easier.

 

I think the biggest problem for Marine players comes from a belief they have to work a certain way to win. Assault Tyranids will actually throw them off more than sitting there and relying on shooting. Target priorty becomes easier if you can ignore those Hormagaunts because you are inside a Rhino and those Carnifex because you have a unit of Terminators who are going to beat up on them in a counter attack.

 

Marine Players just need to change their "doctrinal" army lists more readily.

[Captain Idaho]

Double post badness, sorry.

[DemetriiTZ]

As I said, Tyranids rely on unit synergy to a degree similar (perhaps even more so) than Eldar. A squad of Hormagaunts by themselves will do damage to a squad of Marines -- but a unit of hormagaunts charging in with a Hive Tyrant who's using Lash Whips to reduce enemies to I1 (even in cover), Paroxysm to lower their WS to 1, and an aura of Preferred Enemy? Hormagaunts are almost like extensions of the Tyrant himself -- a long, fleeting arm of I5 to reach out and touch someone, alongside him.

 

'Nids rely on combined assaults and unit synergy -- if you start breaking their synergy, you win.

 

As for poor saves.. Do Harlequins care that they're only T3 and 5++? No, because they hit like a ton of bricks. Hormagaunts don't care if they pounce on a 200+ point Tactical Marine squad and demolish them with an average of 7-8 marines killed on the charge, only to be mowed down afterwards. They've already accomplished their goal, and they've slaughtered something worth more than double their points.

 

Hormagaunts versus the Nightbringer is another funny example. The list goes on.

[Captain Idaho]

As a priority then I would charge a Dread into them and hold them up or kill them. Shoot the Tyrant and even counter charge it. I can easily rake a couple of heavy bolters over the unit of Hormagaunts to weaken them. I'm hiding in a Rhino anyway so how can they get me?

 

I'm not saying a Tyranid army lacks for fiendish options and can't be a pain to face but it's not all doom and gloom. I have a competetive list I'm working on that I reckon will be absolutely murder to a Tyranid list when used correctly as it has speed (Landspeeders and transports for all), durability (transports, power armour, 2+ saves and a Landraider), firepower (2 Tornados and a Typhoon, a Landraider and Space Marines all round) and close combat capacity (again Space Marines all round and Honour Guard too). That list should give it a go against anything they can throw at me but it will be hard fought I'm sure.

[DemetriiTZ]

Oh, they're not unbeatable, of course, but nothing is, right? :) That being said, 'Nids dominate certain aspects and phases of 5th which other armies do not -- at least, not in the same manner. They have more deployment options than any other army, stronger synergy between certain units, and reliable anti-tank in both hand-to-hand and ranged (even if you move 12'' or more, Trygons still effectively have 14 attempts to nail your speedy transport on a 6, and after that, they're nibbling back armor).

 

I also wouldn't discount standard Hive Tyrants -- a pair of Devil Tyrants with wings will pump out 24 TL'ed S6 shots, and can deepstrike. An alpha strike of 36 S5 shots and 24 TL'd S6, all showing up on Turn 2, is kind of painful, especially to light vehicles and squads with no transport options, like Jetbikes or Jump Infantry.

[Brother Facestab]

Are there any suggestions for fighting 'nids in lower points values? I play a lot of 1k, and at 1k I tend to face 3 monstrous creatures and the doom (with the most generous rules interpretation). I'm having a hard time getting enough firepower to do anything against that, since it's really hard to cram in TH/SS or sternguard, especially since I run a bike captain.

[minigun762]

Are there any suggestions for fighting 'nids in lower points values? I play a lot of 1k, and at 1k I tend to face 3 monstrous creatures and the doom (with the most generous rules interpretation). I'm having a hard time getting enough firepower to do anything against that, since it's really hard to cram in TH/SS or sternguard, especially since I run a bike captain.

 

You really need to get some long range firepower in there.

Speeder Typhoons are perfect. You can toss 3 into a list for 27% of your army total and they should be knocking an MC down every other turn with luck.

 

Other then that, some Plasma Cannons/Missile Launchers/Plasmaguns in Tac squads won't hurt. If need be, hide in the Rhino and shoot out the firepoint. It forces them to assault the Rhino first, then you can hop out and rapid fire into their face. Powerfists are a must.

 

Keep your HQ cheap, a Biker Captain might be too much. Of course if you use Biker squads, try fitting in a MM attack bike.

[DevianID]

In my opinion tyranids are at their strongest at 1k points, as they can run multiple MCs that opponents have very little chance of dealing with quickly thanks to fewer strong shooting/cc attacks.

 

A command squad with 4 plasma guns would be unplesant for nids at 1k points, as well as las/plas razorbacks.

 

As for the 'nids overall power level (according to my old army tiers article I did a while back) I rate them as just making tier 2 overall. While I havent played enough games to discover their strongest army lists, their weakness is very apparent... aka once the elite choices are filled they have terrible anti-vehicle options (in terms of points efficiency). The heavy venom cannon and rupture cannon, supposed to be the 'nid heavy shooting attacks, are terribly inefficient for the point cost. And monstrous creatures trying to get into melee with vehicles is something that can only be attempted at turn 3 minimum--smart opponents with tier 1/1.5 lists will never let nid mc's get close to their vehicles unless they let it happen (like a raider driving up to unload THSS termies).

 

As an aside, even though I say 'nids rate at the bottom of the competitive armies, the new 'nid book is overpowered versus opponents with bad armies or new players. What I mean is that poorly designed armies, with very few vehicles and very inefficient shooting/close combat units, get spanked by the glass hammer nature of the tyranids. Its this reason 'nids are so good at 1k point games--at 1k points 4+MCs with tons of gaunts over run most armies ability to deal damage.

 

Thoughts?

[Koremu]

I also wouldn't discount standard Hive Tyrants -- a pair of Devil Tyrants with wings will pump out 24 TL'ed S6 shots, and can deepstrike. An alpha strike of 36 S5 shots and 24 TL'd S6, all showing up on Turn 2, is kind of painful, especially to light vehicles and squads with no transport options, like Jetbikes or Jump Infantry.

Winged Tyrants cannot Deep Strike.

[DevianID]

The debate for winged tyrants deep striking is that wings allow you to move as jump infantry. One of the many rules in the jump infantry movement section is that they can deepstrike. Saying that winged tyrants cant deepstrike is like saying they wouldnt fall back 3d6 inches instead of 2d6 inches, or like saying they cant go over intervening models.

[Koremu]

"Move as if they were Jump Infantry" is not the same as actually being Jump Infantry.

 

It only gets to Deep Strike if it says "Jump Infantry" on the Profile. Having Wings doesn't change the Unit type at all. Flyrants are still MCs.

[Giga]

Why would anyone want to deep strike a flying tyrant anyway?

 

It's the same as deep striking an assault squad, or a squad of assault terminators, or a winged daemon prince - if they don't get owned by deep strike mishap, they're still going to get owned by the fact they just have to stand there for a turn and get shot up, since they can't assault or move on the turn they arrive.

[Koremu]

*shrug* I Deep Strike Assault Marines all the time. You just have to do so intelligently, and with guidance from a beacon.

 

AMs are pretty good for Deep Strike, as you can land them on one side of terrain and hop right over next turn.

[Giga]

*shrug* I Deep Strike Assault Marines all the time. You just have to do so intelligently, and with guidance from a beacon.

 

AMs are pretty good for Deep Strike, as you can land them on one side of terrain and hop right over next turn.

From my own experience, doing that results in two things;

 

- the unit you want to assault just moving away and out of range

- the assault marines getting badly shot up or counter-assaulted

- both things happening

 

But ofc, if it works for you, then that's good and you should do it.

[chapter master 454]

Well so far in my metagame, the nid lists there are nasty, one player said his list is nice but in all facts he barely gets his reserves on before anyone surrenders.

 

My thoughts on nids are so far VERY negative. Synergy? yes. Breakable? good luck. Why? you try nailing that tervigon in one turn without expending your entire army on it without specilising. The only way I can see marines giving nids a real kicking is to do what they do: GET STUCK IN! to hell with shooting, anything shooty is going to get munched by genestealers or spore mines (the latter being more detraction than anything which can be FATAL). I would say some TH/SS terminators and plenty of assault marines along with back bone of tacticals foot slogging while lysander, shrike or khan lead (depends on what you want but both have near same effect. one holds your men in place to grind and while we don't excel at it, I can garentee that if the nids have to waste more than one assault phase for a unit you can easily break them up. one gives you something the nids love to have and hate to face. the last gives you the ability to do what nids like but we can do better). Don't mess around with shooting, bring them down in CC. I know it sounds funny but it's like some boss's, the one thing you might believe to be the worst option is sometimes the best (eg MGS3 end boss, easily defeated if hit in close combat to be knocked down then blast ten shades of hell out of her. In the game 3 times or more she is shown in cutscenes to kick your rear in CC). We are the jack of all trades however it's when we do what the enemy do more with a little pinch of the other do we show how much we could hurt.

 

(thats my theory anyway because so far I've used 2 extremely heavy shooting armies and so far, it was the worst possibly idea ever)

[Giga]

@ Chapter Master

 

I'm not catching you. Are you saying that marines should play assaulty against nids?

 

That might make sense if you're playing against old-school nidzilla army with all those shooty carnifexes, but against the new nids? No way. They're better at assault now then they ever were.

 

What one needs to do to beat them is a balanced approach, shooting what needs to be shot, assaulting what needs to be assaulted, and ignoring/avoiding the stuff you can't deal with at the moment. Since we're a jack of all trades army, we can do all this.

 

It's up to the general to set up the situation in such a way that nids are assaulting/shooting you at your own terms, rather then by theirs. If you know those genestealers are going to come from outflank on 3+, make sure you move your rhinos over 6" to make it exceedingly hard for the stealers to damage them, or deploy them away from the edges. If you're gonna take a charge from those hormagaunts, then make sure you keep your unit in area terrain so the hormagaunts strike at I1. If you got orbital bombardment, and your opponent has a big unit of warriors in cover, then don't just waste it on some gaunts, keep it for later, so the possibility of orbital bombardment can terrorize the nid player into keeping his warriors in area terrain, etc.

 

Likewise, with shooting, if you shoot something shoot it so it dies in one turn. It doesn't matter if you just used your entire army to shoot one tervigon to death - what matters is whether killing that tervigon is what most optimizes your chances to win given that particular situation.

 

More then anything, the new tyranids emphasize the need for a strong counter-assault unit.

[Helmet]

here's a thing i noticed.

 

 

doom of mala'tai is NOT a zoanthrope (it does not say it is a zoanthrope anywhere in the codex)... but when refering to warpfield on pg 44 it say:

 

"-a warp field grants a zoanthope a 3+ inv save"

 

now, notice how it does NOT say; "a warp field grants it's user a 3+ inv save"

 

 

so, even if the doom has the power, not being a zoanthrope. it has no effect on him

 

(unless of course if we space marine players will allow or tyranid players that in exchange of the doom not being able to hit models in a transport)

 

 

because that's RAW in the new codex! now enjoy killing doom of with a few bolters hehehe

[The Black Watch]

here's a thing i noticed.

 

 

doom of mala'tai is NOT a zoanthrope (it does not say it is a zoanthrope anywhere in the codex)... but when refering to warpfield on pg 44 it say:

 

"-a warp field grants a zoanthope a 3+ inv save"

 

now, notice how it does NOT say; "a warp field grants it's user a 3+ inv save"

 

 

so, even if the doom has the power, not being a zoanthrope. it has no effect on him

 

(unless of course if we space marine players will allow or tyranid players that in exchange of the doom not being able to hit models in a transport)

 

 

because that's RAW in the new codex! now enjoy killing doom of with a few bolters hehehe

Wow that's pretty much the most shameful post I've ever seen. I hope I never meet you in real life.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Aye, that is almost as bad as Daemons in the C:Daemons not counting as daemons for C:Daemonhunters.

[BlackSpike]

here's a thing i noticed.

 

 

doom of mala'tai is NOT a zoanthrope (it does not say it is a zoanthrope anywhere in the codex)... but when refering to warpfield on pg 44 it say:

 

"-a warp field grants a zoanthope a 3+ inv save"

 

now, notice how it does NOT say; "a warp field grants it's user a 3+ inv save"

 

 

so, even if the doom has the power, not being a zoanthrope. it has no effect on him

 

(unless of course if we space marine players will allow or tyranid players that in exchange of the doom not being able to hit models in a transport)

 

 

because that's RAW in the new codex! now enjoy killing doom of with a few bolters hehehe

 

Yeah, I noticed that, but I realised that if I tried it aginast any opponent, they would roll their eyes and start packing up their toy soldiers/monsters.

RAI is quite obvious, even to those that don't want to see it.

[Giga]

I don't think Helmet was seriously intending to use that. What he meant was that it could be a nice RaW issue to throw at annoying nid players who would want spirit leech to hit models in transports, just to annoy them. :)

[stuckinbermuda]

I played a quick 1000pt campaign game against a new nid player today.

I only won because I managed to meet my objectives, we were both playing a rescue mission.

 

He dropped two pods on me (right in the middle of my tightly grouped force in the middle of my deployment zone, I was trying to keep my objective secure) on turn three with doom in one that killed my techmarine and picked out two marines out of a tactical squad. I had all my troops out at the time to try and reach an objective in difficult terrain. The second pod had two Zoanthropes in it that took out my two heavy bolter speeders. I had spent the first two turns just shooting at his massive swarm of gargoyles. The game ended on turn 4 and I had lost a five man tactical squad to his hive tyrant (they were used as a speed bump) and I spent all my armies shooting on turn 4 at the Doom and couldn't drop it. I had a flamer/lascannon and a melta/lascannon tactical, a missile/twin lascannon dread, a rhino with HK, razor with twin plasma and lascannon, techmarine, chappy and two speeders. I could not have taken down his army in a stand up fight, I was on the back foot retreating from the start. I really don't like the new nids. I'm looking for a good solution to the "Doom drop" and "Farseer in a can+3 warwalkers+two dire avengers with exarches". I need to have one list that can take on everything but the new nids are just so nasty I can't think of anything to beat them with, anyone have a nerf bat handy? I'm sure it will come eventually but as they are there are some overpowered units imho.