Bug Hunting

[Frosty the Pyro]

"Move as if they were Jump Infantry" is not the same as actually being Jump Infantry.

 

It only gets to Deep Strike if it says "Jump Infantry" on the Profile. Having Wings doesn't change the Unit type at all. Flyrants are still MCs.

If you open the BRB to page 52, under the headint of movement, it says they may deap strike, thus deapstriking is part of moving as if they were jump infantry, because that is in the movement section of the jump infantry rules.

[Caleth]

"Move as if they were Jump Infantry" is not the same as actually being Jump Infantry.

 

It only gets to Deep Strike if it says "Jump Infantry" on the Profile. Having Wings doesn't change the Unit type at all. Flyrants are still MCs.

If you open the BRB to page 52, under the headint of movement, it says they may deap strike, thus deapstriking is part of moving as if they were jump infantry, because that is in the movement section of the jump infantry rules.

 

Deep strike is not a movement type it is a deployment type. The Tyrant may move as Jump Infantry ie move 12 inches, it says nothing about becoming jump infantry and thus being able to deploy as such. It's an easy mistake to make but they aren't the same thing.

[DemetriiTZ]

I'd agree, but the fact is that the rulebook refers to Deep Strike as a "move", claiming models are unable to "move further", having been disrupted by their "Deepstrike Move". Also, there are rules in the game which allow models to Deepstrike during the game itself -- and even the act of Deepstriking itself occurs during the movement phase, not during the deployment phase. Finally, Deep Strike is included under the "movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules, and thus, it is implied that it is a form of movement, rather than deployment.

 

Not to mention that every model with wings in every other Codex in existence is able to Deepstrike.

 

Seems pretty clear to me. Of course, some people like to grasp at straws until a FAQ comes out, so I guess work it out with your opponent. Where I'm from (and when I run tournaments), anything that "moves as Jump Infantry" can deepstrike like Jump Infantry. Of course, I also feel Doom of Malantai can nail squads in vehicles, too, which is also an unpopular notion amongst folks who are comfortable with the idea of near-invulnerability while being transported in an iron coffin, so..

 

Basically, if Deep Strike is not a form of movement, it should not be listed under the movement section, and should only be listed in the Deployment/Reserves section. Until it's clarified one way or the other, Hive Tyrants with wings (in my opinion) use absolutely everything (no exceptions) under the Jump Infantry Movement section.

 

But we're getting off-topic here: the question is, how do you kill the new bugs, not whether or not Robin Cruddace can write a Codex well. The answer to the latter is pretty obvious. :nuke:

[spu00sed]

"Move as if they were Jump Infantry" is not the same as actually being Jump Infantry.

 

It only gets to Deep Strike if it says "Jump Infantry" on the Profile. Having Wings doesn't change the Unit type at all. Flyrants are still MCs.

If you open the BRB to page 52, under the headint of movement, it says they may deap strike, thus deapstriking is part of moving as if they were jump infantry, because that is in the movement section of the jump infantry rules.

 

 

If a tyrant became jump infantry if it is given wings then the follwing will happen:

 

It will be able to hide behind a gaunt screen, or even a ripper screen

It will only roll 1D6 armour pen

It would not ignore armour saves in combat

It would lose move trhough cover

It could only fire one weapon a turn.

 

All this would happen because it is now jump infantry not monstrous crerature

 

As to the doom taken on infantry in a vehicle. I think it can.

 

If a unit of IG plasma vets sitting next to the doom, in a chimera, can shoot the doom then they are within 6" of the doom and are within its area of effect.

 

However they are obscured and should get a 4+ or even a 3+ cover save.

[Xeonic]

It's not changed into the jump infantry unit type, it moves as if it were jump infantry. Deep strike is in the rulebook under movement in the jump infantry section, thus as the winged tyrant "moves-as" Jump Infantry, while being a Monstrous Creature, he should be able to deep strike as if he were actually Jump Infantry.

 

I would let an opponent deep strike a tyrant without argument, mainly because it's not -that big- of a threat. Sure it's a big scary thing deep striking next to you but you can deal with it, it's not like he can charge you right away. Deep Strike -IS- under the movement section in jump infantry, and wings -DO- make him move as if he were Jump Infantry, that's not debatable, it's very clear. If or not he should be allowed to deep strike as it can be argued that it's a deployment option... Like I said, it's hardly game breaking and I see no reason to say no to that. Deep Striking is handled in the movement phase and is treated as movement so why not?

 

EDIT: Clarity.

[LardO'Blood]

Played my Nid friend today in planetstrike, at the last turn it was my lone captain and immobilized LR vs the majority of his army. Didn't help at all he bombarded one of my two tactical squads to death before the game started. We started a second game which went considerably better for me, even though we had to pack up.

Lesson learned (A lot of it is basic but its stuff I learned):

 

Bring terminators in later, even if it means you lose the deepstrike.

Get Carnifexes/Hive tyrants stuck in assault away from your vehicles.

Less concentrated force.

When something big comes at you, shoot it with everything you have that can kill it.

Be prepared for the worst.

Yes, that genestealer squad will fleet you.

Keep squads mobile to avoid assaults while backing them up with something small but dangerous (EX: 5 scouts, 4 with sniper rifles, one with ML)

Your AV 14 bastion/LR is NOT SAFE.

Don't use initiative 5 against genestealers, use it against gaunts or tyrants

Concentrate fire on Carnifexes/Hive tyrants

**Use tanks or transports**

The land raider doesn't only have to carry terminators

Know your units worth - Killy wise and points wise

Keep your options open, drop the missile launcher from your squad, you will probably just be running

Get behind cover at 12 inches, you risk being assaulted

You have 3+ armor and 5+ cover, restrict his LoS if you can

Review your options, yes dreadnoughts are vehicles but they can get stuck in assault

Be prepared for a drastic change

Don't purposely fail your morale check against initiative 6+

Your land raider may be an uber heavy mobile bastion but thats not saying much.

Use your land raider to provide support fire and transport endangered units or protect them from units that can slaughter marines but cant pierce AV 14

[Koremu]

It's not changed into the jump infantry unit type, it moves as if it were jump infantry. Deep strike is in the rulebook under movement in the jump infantry section, thus as the winged tyrant "moves-as" Jump Infantry, while being a Monstrous Creature, he should be able to deep strike as if he were actually Jump Infantry.

 

I would let an opponent deep strike a tyrant without argument, mainly because it's not -that big- of a threat. Sure it's a big scary thing deep striking next to you but you can deal with it, it's not like he can charge you right away. Deep Strike -IS- under the movement section in jump infantry, and wings -DO- make him move as if he were Jump Infantry, that's not debatable, it's very clear. If or not he should be allowed to deep strike as it can be argued that it's a deployment option... Like I said, it's hardly game breaking and I see no reason to say no to that. Deep Striking is handled in the movement phase and is treated as movement so why not?

 

EDIT: Clarity.

Deep Striking is not handled in the Movement Rules - It's in the Reserve Rules. You cannot Deep Strike unless you are actually Jump Infantry - merely moving as one does not count.

[Frosty the Pyro]

you can say that as many times as you want Koremu, you're still wrong. Moveing like jump infantry meens you follow the rules for jump infantry movement. The rules for jump infantry movement say "may enter enter the battle by deep strike." one and two make three

[Koremu]

No, sorry. I've been through this in the opposite direction with Chaos Lords and Wings. Merely moving as Jump Infantry doesn't actually make you Jump Infantry.

[DemetriiTZ]

The previous Codex claimed Wings made a Tyrant count as Jump Infantry -- I don't remember anyone arguing whether or not it retained 2d6 armor penetration. Why do some people insist on having the obvious spelled out for them? Always baffles me.

[Caleth]

Seeing that this discussion won't go any where productive, I think getting back on topic is an excellent idea. What will you bring to take on the immediate and obvious choice of 4-5 MC spam which will be backed up by masses of termagants. In theory 30 basic gants in two squads is 60 plus another about 50 spawned by tervigons (which imo will be the new IT unit for 6-9 months.) So based off the list I helped one of my friends build we'll be seeing 3 of those perhaps a trygon or tyrant, and he was planning to use 2 tyranofexes to pop LR's or other assets of opportunity.

 

My tentative solution is Dev squad with 1 las and 3ML. A suicide min sized sternguard with either combi plas or Melta. Then about 2-3 tac squads with Flamers and MLs. In the past I've favored the drop podded Iron Clad with the Heavy flamer as a simple way to handle a majority of opponents. But now I'm not really sure, maybe a standard one with a assault cannon and heavy flamer trucking along the field would be better it has options to handle most load outs of nids.

 

Beyond that a LR with 5man TH/ss and call it a day. I despise that a few zoanthropes will require me to take a 100pt waste of an HQ to guard against them, but it's is a necessary evil. Which means a captain with relic blade and combi melta or plas is still a great go to, but I might leave the artificer off him. Especially since it seems mandatory to have PF's on all sargs now.

 

 

Thoughts comments?

[Frosty the Pyro]

No, sorry. I've been through this in the opposite direction with Chaos Lords and Wings. Merely moving as Jump Infantry doesn't actually make you Jump Infantry.

Being jump infantry is not a requirement to deep strike. You simply must have the deep strike rules, which are in the MOVEMENT part of the jump infantry rules, thus moving like jump infantry allows deep striking, weather or not you are jump infantry. Now if the movement section of jump infantry rules did not include deepstriking and instead the deep strike rules said jump infantry could deap strike, THEN you would be correct. Moving like jump infantry includes deep strikeing BECAUSE the rules for jump infantry movement includes deep strikeing, arguing against it is the same as arguing against the 12" movement, as they are in the same place (jump infantry movement).

 

The reason chaos lords with wings can embark is because the what prevents jump infantry from embarking is not in their movement rules, but instead in the rules for transports, and the only part of jump infantry that apply to the chaos lord is the part under "MOVEMENT." Nowhere in that part is a restriction against riding in transports. However there is an allowance to deep strike under that section.

[minigun762]

I despise that a few zoanthropes will require me to take a 100pt waste of an HQ to guard against them, but it's is a necessary evil.

 

I don't think its just Zoas. Librarians are almost a must have for competitive lists now. Trust me, as a Chaos player I wish I had anything that was anti-Psyker. Mixed with Null Zone and you have the perfect compliment to TH/SS Terminators.

[Giga]

I despise that a few zoanthropes will require me to take a 100pt waste of an HQ to guard against them, but it's is a necessary evil.

Librarians are great support HQs for all-comers lists. With avenger and nullzone, they can be extremely useful vs tyranids (and most other armies). Nullzone, for example, enables you to kill zoanthropes easily by simply rapid firing them. Avenger works great against any infantry (tyranid or otherwise).

[Caleth]

I despise that a few zoanthropes will require me to take a 100pt waste of an HQ to guard against them, but it's is a necessary evil.

Librarians are great support HQs for all-comers lists. With avenger and nullzone, they can be extremely useful vs tyranids (and most other armies). Nullzone, for example, enables you to kill zoanthropes easily by simply rapid firing them. Avenger works great against any infantry (tyranid or otherwise).

 

 

Except that all synapse requires you to roll on 3d6 which means that about half the time... or if your me more like 75 percent you can't use your powers which means hey look a 100 point hood and some gimped fighting ability. I will take him if i take a LR but i dont like being forced to spend 100 pts to puppy guard a unit and only getting to use half the abilties I paid for.

 

As for rapid firing that kills Zoanthropes pretty readily even without the rerolls. They are effectily about the same as shooting at a marine and so I only have to kill four marines to kill two thropes. Not a difficult task by any measure what makes zoanthropes lethal is that combined with Drop Pods show up kill more than their weight in vehicles and then like a DDM or suicide sternguard who cares if they die?

[DemetriiTZ]

I think Zoanthropes suck in pods -- way too situational. To be honest, I dislike Zoanthropes in general. Good on Land Raider spam, horrible on Rhino spam, and they need Line of Sight and a Psychic Test to work their magic. Hive Guard, on the other hand, hide behind stuff and blow away light vehicles very easily. The occasional Land Raider which sneaks by can be mopped up by Trygons and Tyrants, really. Raider Rush is not going to be the major issue for Tyranids, I don't think. Loads of light vehicles filled with plasma will be, and I can safely say that Lash is going to be one of the worst matchups for 'Nids. Worse than Orks, even.

[Giga]

Except that all synapse requires you to roll on 3d6 which means that about half the time...

I don't have my codex here, but as far as I know only hive tyrants and another synapse or two have Shadow in the Warp. Definitely not ALL synapse.

 

Even so, it's only 12" range. It's easy to move out of that, especially if your libby is in a vehicle, and most good libby powers are used in shooting phase, anyway.

 

The psychic hood on its own is great. Null zone is absolutely awesome (allows you to pwn those zoanthropes from 24" away with impunity), and the avenger is an AP3 heavy flamer (always useful against nids).

 

As I said before, librarians are great for all-comers lists. They're a support HQ, meaning they won't be extremely useful every time, but then having one at the right place and the right time, and knowing how to use him can really turn the battle in your favor. That's quite worth it for 100 pts, I think.

I think Zoanthropes suck in pods -- way too situational.

Even so, I think they're gonna be essential to many competitive nid lists.

 

They got great synergy with lictors, swarmlord, etc. since that can enable them not to scatter on deep strike, or to arrive on 3+ in turn 2 and 2+ on turn 3, meaning you can rely on them to be there when you need them.

 

They're cheap, easy to use, and they can slaughter both infantry and vehicles. Their weakness is instant death, short range, and protection from psychic powers (I can see them being quite useless against eldar with farseer, for example, and extremely weak against SW with Njal), but that's fine - that's why they have a str10 ap1 lance weapon to compensate.

Raider Rush is not going to be the major issue for Tyranids, I don't think. Loads of light vehicles filled with plasma will be

I can't see plasma becoming more popular because of the new nids.

 

If anything, with new nids dying from instant death and having virtually no access to 2+ saves, missile launchers, multimeltas, meltaguns, and lascannons are going to rise in popularity, while plasma is going to be further forgotten simply because it's more expensive then the other options while also being riskier and wounding on 3+ rather then 2+.

 

I would expect rifleman dreadnoughts to also fall in popularity due to the new nid codex, while I would expect vindicators and combipreds to get more popular. Typhoons against new nids would be just nasty, too.

[DemetriiTZ]

Against MCs, Plasma will always be better than Melta, with no real exceptions. Missile launchers will be fine too, but missile launchers have always been good all-purpose heavy weapons. Assault cannons are perfectly fine -- they have an easy time wounding at range, and they're effective against 90% of the other armies out there. I think it comes down to what kinds of lists your local meta fields. I can tell you that the lists here are predominantly Nidzilla with a heavy swarm component, so rushing up to fire meltas into a 6 W MC is going to fail miserably, unless you devote numerous (read as: 2-3) squads of firepower on one monster. Plasma reduces the amount of squads you need to commit, and synergizes more readily with long-range firepower. Getting too close to the bugs is a bad idea -- You can stonewall a Boyz charge with Plague Marines, but a 15 man Hormagaunt squad with Toxin Sacs charging into the same Plague Marines, coupled with Paroxysm and/or Preferred Enemy will inflict massive casualties, even against Nurgle's finest.

 

I don't see anyone besides berserkers beating 'Nids in assault without softening them up a LOT with firepower... and as far as Zoans go, I dislike them for the same reason I dislike Termicide. They're even worse because they give you less shots, cost more points, and give up a pair of killpoints if you take 'em in Pods. Hive Guard just hide the entire game, and mow down Rhinos.

[minigun762]

I can't see plasma becoming more popular because of the new nids.

 

If anything, with new nids dying from instant death and having virtually no access to 2+ saves, missile launchers, multimeltas, meltaguns, and lascannons are going to rise in popularity, while plasma is going to be further forgotten simply because it's more expensive then the other options while also being riskier and wounding on 3+ rather then 2+.

 

I can easily see it in more lists. The reason is simple, it has 2x the range and 2x the shots which means you'll typically have 3x the amount of potential wounds on it compared to Melta.

 

Now against Warriors, you should be using Missiles/Melta/Power Fist to insta-kill them, but what about all the Tervigons/Tyrons/Tyrants that you can't insta-kill, this is where plasma comes in.

 

A Plasmagun should get 1 shot @ 24" and 2 shots @ 12" most of the time. This is 3 shots that wound on 3's with no save.

A Meltagun should get 1 shot @ 12", this is 1 shot that wounds on 2's.

I think we can all agree that the Plasma has alot more oppurtunity to put wounds on those MCs.

 

My Chaos Marines have been geared up as 2x Melta and 2x Plasma for awhile and I think thats still the best way to balance it.

[The Black Watch]

I don't have my codex here, but as far as I know only hive tyrants and another synapse or two have Shadow in the Warp. Definitely not ALL synapse.

Sorry to disappoint you but ALL synapse creatures DO have SotW. Also, even the Doom has it and it isn't a synapse creature. I don't think you'll see many armies with anything less than 3 synapse creatures and that can cover a decent amount of the board.

 

As for me, I'm building my army around a swarm of Hormagaunts with toxin sacs. I'm aiming to have 60+ at 1500pts. My warriors will hide behind them and enjoy a cover save and when they do get into assault they will be able to avoid base contact for at least the first turn meaning they are untouchable. I hate termagants therefore I won't have ANY and no Tervigons either.

[Koremu]

SotW is hardly that nasty, as Perils only hits on double 6s or double 1s - it's not like you're dealing with Eldar Runes.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't see anyone besides berserkers beating 'Nids in assault without softening them up a LOT with firepower... and as far as Zoans go, I dislike them for the same reason I dislike Termicide. They're even worse because they give you less shots, cost more points, and give up a pair of killpoints if you take 'em in Pods. Hive Guard just hide the entire game, and mow down Rhinos.

 

I agree. Hive Guard will help against those pecky Falcons/Wave Serpents so as a Marine player I would worry about my Rhinos protecting my game winning Tactical squads rather than my Landraider getting shot on turn 2 on a 4+, turn 3 on 3+ etc. Too random.

 

Besides, in 1/3 of games Kill Points are in play. This means those 2 Zoanthropes dropping in and killing that Landraider nets them a single KP and I retaliate with the unit inside assault the Zoanthrope and (if in range that turn) the Mycetic spore too. That is 2 KPs for 1 in the Marine player's favour! I seriously doubt the assault unit from that destroyed Landraider will be starved of targets as the Tyranids will likely be closing with me anyway!

 

As for synapse, we have to bare in mind this is a serious problem for Tyranid players in 5th edition in comparison to 4th edition, purely because of the win conditions of 2/3 of all missions. To take and keep an objective in their own deployment area with anything other than Genestealers (who should be fighting in assault) or Tyranid Warriors (that are expensive), the Tyranid player has to commit a synapse creature as babysitter. In games with more than 2 obejectives we can expect the Tyranid player to have to put a synapse creature between 2 objectives and not be able to move, just to protect 2 scoring units from running.

 

So if we play clever we can use the synapse to our advantage. It is a misconception that we need to kill every synapse creature to neutralise a Tyranid army's ability to beat play effectively, rather we need to pick a single area/situation where the removal of the Synapse wins us the game. Likely us Marines will be too tough for a single synapse creature to accompany their attack to take down our defening units, which means there will be less synapse units "at home". If we have fast moving/far ranging firepower or outflanking/deep striking units we can make things really difficult on their home objectives.

[SpecialIssue]

If we have fast moving/far ranging firepower or outflanking/deep striking units we can make things really difficult on their home objectives.

 

Read as: "If we have landspeeder typhoons..." ;)

[waaanial00]

@Captain Idaho - I am not so sure about the scoring of nids in 5th ed. True in 4th if they were outside of synapse they couldnt score however I am not too sure that in the new codex that holds true (havent read the damn thing yet).

 

From my understanding speaking to a guy who plays nids (read recent battle report <here> for more details of the game) and from reading about, creatures outside of synapse default to two modes.

 

Shooting ones dive into the nearest cover and shoot

Fighting ones get Rage and therefore run towards us and attack

 

As far as I was aware it doesnt make any mention of scoring. So a shooting one in cover next to an objective could concievably just stay put and continue to shoot at nothing whilst still being scoring.

 

Wan

[Giga]

but what about all the Tervigons/Tyrons/Tyrants that you can't insta-kill

That's where assault termies/dual daemon princes with warptime come in. :lol:

 

But yeah, chaos doesn't have the advantage of quick-moving multimeltas, and hence has to make do with plasma much more then loyalist do. Not to mention chaos actually gets TL-ed plasmaguns in the form of obliterators!

As far as I was aware it doesnt make any mention of scoring.

It doesn't. As far as I know, troops out of synapse are still scoring.

 

All it takes for a smart nid player is to place his objectives inside terrain, so even if his synapse is killed his termagants can just run into that terrain off their own accord, and end up scoring anyway.