Tyranids verses Space Wolves in 1500 point games

[antique_nova]

So i got a GT friend down and he uses my list and agrees with the tactics i put for the list ( he was going to do the same thing anyway, because he's seen me play ) and i used the new nidz with using the tyranid models from the store.

 

I find it quite amusing that everyone thinks this is 2000 points game, up to post 17, when infact it is a 1500 point game. it's my fault that i didn't put up the points of the armies. So apologies for that.

 

The SW list:

 

1x Rune Priest

1x Chooser of the slain

- spells -

1x Jaws of the world wolf

1x Living Lightning

 

Wolf Guard Pack

(Joins Long Fang Pack 1)

1x Wolf Guard

 

(Joins Long Fang Pack 2)

1x Wolf Guard

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 1)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Thunder hammer

1x Combi-melta

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 2)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Thunder hammer

1x Combi-melta

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 3)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Thunder hammer

1x Combi-melta

 

(Joins Grey Hunter Pack 4)

1x Wolf Guard

1x Terminator Armour

1x Cyclone Missile Launcher

 

Grey Hunter Pack 1

7x Grey Hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Mark of the Wulfen

1x Wolf standard

- Transport -

1x Rhino

1x extra armour

 

Grey Hunter Pack 2

7x Grey Hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Mark of the Wulfen

1x Wolf standard

- Transport -

1x Rhino

1x extra armour

 

Grey Hunter Pack 3

8x Grey Hunters

1x Melta gun

1x Mark of the Wulfen

1x Wolf standard

- Transport -

1x Drop pod

1x DWL

 

Grey Hunter Pack 4

5x Grey Hunters

1x Plasma gun

 

1x Land speeder

1x Multi-melta

1x Heavy flamer

 

1x Land speeder

1x Multi-melta

1x Heavy flamer

 

Long Fang Pack 1

6x Long Fang

1x Pack Leader

3x Missile launcher

2x Lascannon

 

Long Fang Pack 2

6x Long Fang

1x Pack Leader

3x Missile launcher

2x Lascannon

 

Tyranids

 

HQ

 

1x Hive tyrant

1x Bonesword ( LD for instant death if wounded )

1x Lash whip ( CC enemy is auto I1 )

1x Winged

1x +1 to reserves

- spells -

Leech wounds

Psychic screech

Elite

 

2x Hive guard

2x impaler cannon

 

2x Hive guard

2x impaler cannon

 

1x Venomthrope

 

 

Troops

 

1x Tervigon

1x cluster spore

FNP casting

18" synapse casting

3D6 Termagaunts per turn

 

10x Termagaunts

 

6x genestealers

 

6x Genestealers

 

Fast Attack

 

They deploy before deployment start and after table side choosing

3x Spore mines

 

3x Spore mines

 

Heavy support

 

1x Tyranofex

1x Rupter cannon

1x cluster spore

1x flamer template

 

1x Tyranofex

1x Rupter cannon

1x cluster spore

1x flamer template

 

The nidz army i was using had about 10-20 points to spare.

 

The fight

 

Terrain: A fortress. Well one of those planetstrike square buildings in the middle and two builders with 2 floors on my opponents side roughly 12 inches away from the board side edges on my opponents side. I also had two buildings, not that big but they were closer towards the edges and the one on my left was quite long (long enough to cover a carnifex to hide atleast 50% of itself and grab a cover save) And there were a few barricades all in my opponents DZ and my DZ with one on the middle left of the table.

 

Spore cluster time! Yes, my spore clusters (3 spore mines in each cluster) DS onto the table before deployment starts and one sets up nice and snug in on my opponent’s right hand side building, however one spore mine misses the middle slightly and veers of to his left abit.

 

Deployment:

 

Tyranids go first:

I deploy both of my Tyranofexes (carnifexes) the full 12 inches towards my right with my Tervigon in the middle behind them and the venothrope near the bottom right hand corner and the Hive tyrant to his left and the termaguants are spread out towards the bottom left of my formation to prevent DS and make the hole that I have left in my bottom right hand corner a stupidly dangerous place to DS. I then move my Tervigon towards the right abit more to make space between him and the Hive tyrant for my hive guard ( who will flank the Tervigon ). This formation gives me a solid amount of cover and denying LOS as much as possible to my Tervigon and making it literally impossible for melta range. The genestealers are outflanking.

 

SW:

Seeing me occupy one of his buildings does not please him at all especially when it’s on the side that I am not castling and having some spore mines in the middle doesn’t help either. If he deploys towards his right and avoid the spore mines my hive tyrant can just deny them LOS and then assault them from behind the bastion. However, he deploys one LF squad in the building opposite me and has a GH squad 4 there and then the other LF squad on the other side of the GH squad 4. He deploys the land speeders on his right hand side near my mines and safetly between the spore clusters. The rhinos deploy up front and side ways , behind a barricade.

 

He rolls for seize the initiative and…..fails. phew . At least he can’t drop in his RP first turn and cause me a bit of a headache and divert my MC away from the action.

 

Tyranid first turn:

The spore cluster in the building moves almost off the table and the other moves closer towards the LF squads. My Tervigon spawns 13 gaunts! I move everything up and leave a squad of termaguants to prevent DS as much as possible behind me, the other squads moves to support the hive tyrant. And the hive tyrant moves behind the bastion on its left side, to prevent the rhinos going up and letting the GHs melta the guy. I then increase synapse range and shoot. God I wish I now bought my hive tyrant a gun to deal with those speeders. My guard then shoot the rhinos and blow up the other and kill a marine in the explosion, then my Tyranofexes gun down the other rhino. The each tyranofex shot at different rhinos so I could use my large blast on the passengers, should my guns wreck the rhinos. I then proceed with the shooting and kill a further 2 marines from the squad that has already lost one member and I kill another 3 from the other squad.

 

So end of first turn and both rhino squads have lost 3 marines each and a rhino each.

 

Tyranids: 2

Space wolves: 0

 

Space wolves first turn:

The pod drops down and off target, but is within range of the hive tyrant. The rhino squads take the bait and go in for a rapid fire and shooting melta guns to try and bring down atleast one tyranofex, but they manage two wounds with four melta shots. The land speeders move round and shoot the Hive tyrant and manage to wound him 3 times! The pod squad takes him out however and they use their Jotww successfully on a Tyranofex and I lose him :(. The lucky buggers, i almost lost the Tervigon as well. The LFs then shoot everything into the tyranofexes because shooting the Tervigon is pointless since it has so many wounds and a +4 cover save from behind the Tyranofexes who have literally block most of the LOS to it anyway. They manage to take the beast down to one wound from 4 lascannon shots and 3 missile launchers. The remaining 3 rockets manage to take out the venomthrope as well who decided it was a nice time not to hide and disappear from LOS because I forgot :). The DWL manages to kill 4 guants as well.

 

Tyranids: 2

Space wolves: 3

 

Editor’s note: First turn ponder, my opponent created a trap and I fell for it, it could have killed both of the tyranofexes, but it didn’t and he did a good thing of almost removing the tyrannofexes, but this next turn is when the real hurt starts, I was disappointed and surprised at losing the Hive tyrant as I forgot to move the venothorpe into a better position to protect the tyrant and himself. Ow well.

 

Tyranid second turn:

One genestealer squad comes on and on the LF side as well! Yippy! And My spores move closer towards the LFs as the other drifts off the table. The tervigon spores another squad of 11 termaguants. Every termaguant moves towards the podding squad, while the tyranofex moves closer towards the rhino squads and the tervigon moves towards the bastion in the middle. The Hive guard however move infront of the tervigon to protect it and to prevent anything charging it next turn at them. Then through a hail of shots the termaguants manage to kill four marines and the guard annihilate the drop pod and it explodes and kills a marine, while the other brings down a land speeder. The tyranofex manages to kill all blow up 2 marines in a dissapointing shooting competition between it and the hive guard. The genestealers tear right through a LFs squad and make them run off the board and they consildate behind the building and the termaguants surround and assault the pod squad. The assault phase sees 5 termaguant dead and 3 more marines dead. God I love FNP for guants :) and the fearlessness of the guys keep them in the fight while loosing no more guants. Yea i FNP the guants, but i can't remember when and the RP couldn't disspell it!

 

Tyranids: 5

Space wolves: 3

 

Space wolves second turn:

The rhino squads, torn between either reinforcing the 6 man squad to deal with the genestealers or to help and break through the tyranids and save the rune priest. Neither option looks healthy, but one squad advances at the Tyranofex and the other advances towards the Hive guard. The land speeder however moves right next to the long fang squad to prevent the genestealers from taking the last long fang squad without loosing a kill points through flamer and melta from the speeder. The long fang squad is 3 inches away from the spore mines and decide to take the risk and shoot everything at the hive guard and manage to put it down to a wound and the rhino squad assualts the second hive guard squad. The second rhino squad then manages to miss that all important melta shot! and fail to wound the beast with bolt pistols and so they assualt it. The 6 man grey hunter squads moves in and rapid fires the stealers purging 4 of them. Combat!

 

The combat phase sees the hourmaguants loose the fight as the marines tear through 10 unlucky termaguants, killing a termaguant squad in the process, their frenzy and oath to protect the rune priest driving them onwards as the gaunts manage to leave only the rune priest and the motw grey hunter alive!

 

The rhino squad that assualted the hive guard manage to slaughter the Hive guard and await judgement as they consilate as far away as possible from my right hand side. The second rhino squad however fail to wound the creature before the thunder hammer strike and the Tyranofex manages to strike down the thunder hammer grey hunter and the motww before they are able to initiate tactic whack a fex on it with the thunder hammer :).

 

Tyranids: 6

Space wolves: 5

 

Tyranid third turn:

The spores move into the long fangs are i get a direct hit for it's movement, meaning i chooser where it goes and from the smoke and flying bits of three spore mines only 3 marines are left standing and they hold their nerve.

 

The tervigon spawns more guys, 12 termaguants, and rolls a double 5 in the process, which means i can't produce any more after this turn. and my 2nd genestealer squad comes on! So the 1st genestealer squad heads for the land speeder, while the 2nd squad aims for the 6 man squad. One non combat termaguant squad moves towards the RP squad and the other moves towards the remaing rhino squad and they are given FNP. The remaing tervigon now exacts vengence and annihlates the remaining long fang squad with spore clusters and the rupter cannon. A squad of termaguants aim their fleshborers and bored the rhino squad to death, but they killed a marine! The tervigon fires it's spore clusters for the first time and kills another two. The hive guard downs the land speeders with overwhelming firepower. The other termaguant squad, i have two not in combat and one in combat at the moment, assualts the RP squad. Now to dance in combat once more!

 

The genestealers assualt the 6 man grey hunter squad and cut it up to more of their liking as they begin to digest the fresh corpses. The termaguants and the Tervigon that shot the rhino squad assualt it and chew on it's corpse but not before the motw disassembles 6 gaunts. The other termaguant squad not in combat seals the rune priest's fate and it's brother as they bring down a further 6 gaunts with them.

 

Tyranids: 11

Space wolves: 5

 

With only a land speeder left down and out. The space wolves bombard the tyranids from orbit to prevent the geneseed from being accumulated and the victorious nidz are never seen again.

 

Editor's notes: That was close, i only had a tyranofex on a wound, a hive guard with one wound, three squads of guants and two genestealer squads. This may seem like much, but we each had our good and bad luck, however with so many units dwindling and one last wounds or a few men left leaves a testimony that the nidz are good, but they are not unbeatable.

 

P.S: I think the nidz are the new top dogs IMO. Also, after reviewing the game i don't think that i would have changed the tactics at all that were used by my opponent if i was him. except i would have shot the tyranofex with lascannons and leave the rhino squads to assualt both hive guard. Which could have lead to a much closer game.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[nurglespuss]

OK, now I like your list, its a decent, fairly balanced one, and a good mid-short range counter assaulter. Fair enough.

 

However, why so much 'melta' agains the tyranids? I think you would have been better off with a few 'free' flamers. The same with the landspeeders, twin heavy bolter speeders may have been a better idea?

[antique_nova]

the space wolf list is an all comers list and we decided not to change it to be anti-nid. because you can't change lists halfway through a tournament. not that we were playing in a tournament environment. The heavy bolter speeders do no where near as much damage for anti-horde as heavy flamers do and the venomthorpe gives them a +5 cover save so it's isn't such a wise idea and the meltas allow me to inflict some easy MC wounds and instant jib the vemonthrope and zoanthropes.

Looks like the batrep may be up on today or in 2 days time.

thanks

antique_nova

[Chodjinn]

why the WG leaders for Long Fangs?

[Sarapham]

why the WG leaders for Long Fangs?

 

Quite a good thing to do actually, using a bare bones pack leader just to get an extra wound in the squad you can pick off first, leaving the real fangs intact after the first casualty atleast.

[nurglespuss]

For an all comers list, I still don't understand the maxi melta taking, that doesn't seem too 'all comers' to me.... I know this is 'melta edition' 40k but to be honest, they still only tend to get of a shot or 2 at most at, and almost never at their intended vehicle kill range... (excepting the speeders)

[antique_nova]

they are also for anti-MC. i managed to get a batrep going.

[nurglespuss]

I think perhaps at least one or 2 flamers would have served you well, plus its a good add on for a dreadnought too...

[bareserker]

My personal opinion is too many troops not enough armour. I know Space Wolves are meant to be like Vikings, but they are also meant to be like Wolves, who are cunning and prey on their quarries weakness's. Surely even a balanced list should allow you to kill things en mass at distances greater than 24 inches?

[antique_nova]

my armour is rhinos, a pod and speeders. marines strike hard and fast all the time. And even in the codex it says only heavy tanks are deployed when they face tough resistant, genreally meaning assualting fixed positions like a castle or fortress or an area with alot of barricades of some sort that has pocket holes of defenders everywhere.

bareserker: I would suggest that you read the batrep to find out how the list works. I can kill things en mass at greater than 24 inches. 4 lascannons, 8 missile launcher shots, living lighting and a drop pod with a force of 8 marines a large blast S5 weapon, two melta shots and alot of bolters for any hordes.

thanks

antique_nova

[bareserker]

Sorry mate didnt mean to get under your skin.

I always ran with an old Ven Dread(Twin Linked Lass's+Missile Laun) and nearly always also ran with a Whirlwind,( always hidden behind cover) I was always paranoid about Flamers especially on something as vulnerable as a Land Speeder. Mine was always tooled up with Heavy/B's & Assault C's. You have to get so close with that pesky Template with flamers.

[Nightrunner]

my armour is rhinos, a pod and speeders. marines strike hard and fast all the time. And even in the codex it says only heavy tanks are deployed when they face tough resistant, genreally meaning assualting fixed positions like a castle or fortress or an area with alot of barricades of some sort that has pocket holes of defenders everywhere.

bareserker: I would suggest that you read the batrep to find out how the list works. I can kill things en mass at greater than 24 inches. 4 lascannons, 8 missile launcher shots, living lighting and a drop pod with a force of 8 marines a large blast S5 weapon, two melta shots and alot of bolters for any hordes.

thanks

antique_nova

 

Just so you know, antique... no DWL on the turn your 'pod arrives; it counts as going "cruising speed", so no firing from the pod. Sad faces all round! ;)

 

I still disagree with the extra armour all over that list, and I reckon that you would be better served putting the points from that and the small GH squad into something with a bit more, for lack of a better word, "bite".

 

I apologise for that one now ;)

 

As well as that, I reckon that two squads of static long fangs just isn't the way to go; yes, the volume of fire is nice, but the lack of mobility really hurts with a list that wants to get in your face.

 

Otherwise, yep, Tyranids = massively annoying, aren't they?

 

NR :D

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

As far as the melta concern, I agree that when you consider that particular nid list you may have been better off with flamers. If the troops were more warrior-heavy, then meltas/krak are your friends since they don't have EW backing them up anymore. Loading up on melta and krak against a gaunt-heavy nid list is not advisable in my opinion because you don't need that punch for gaunts and any of the bigger bugs in such a list won't likely be insta-killed by melta/krak because of higher toughness.

[antique_nova]

my list is too static? baaa humbug it isn't. and bareserker you didn't get under my skin. it's fine with your comments.

thanks

antique_nova

[Niiai]

Antique Nova I realy like the principle behind your list and I endorce the long fangs whole heartedly.

 

I would perhaps exachge some of the las cannons or rocket launchers with heavy bolters and turn one of the GH squads into a plasma gun squad for more flexible firepower and game play.

 

Your army has a lott (if not only) power armour. If you meet something that masses a lott of anti power armour (witch I think the other list does) then you are in trouble. Depending on the table you are using the genestealers are a bother for you long fangs. His fexes and Hive guards are just bad.

 

In a non point kill game I would sugest taking out his few troop choises but as it stands now I think you had a very though job in front of you.

 

Edit: Your list is not static mobilaty vice but it is not flexible in tactic witch means that very mutch of the game can be decided depended on your oponent's army list. Keep up the good work though. :tu:

[LPetersson]

First of all, how many points is this list?

It's not a bad list as such, I just think it's a bit melta heavy.

 

Personally I think that if you're gonna go with drop pods, then you need to go all out and put everything in pods.

Otherwise you'll have a squad totally isolated that will become an ineffectual speed bump at worst, and a 2 turn annoyance for the enemy at best.

If you're gonna field them, use 4 or more so you'll get 2 on the first turn so the enemy has to decide on what to slaughter and leave the rest to be run wild.

I normally use 5 when I go for DP assault and I'm gonna get anohter 3 or 4...

 

Incidentally, I hate Rhinos. In the fluff they are these indestructible tanks but in the game they are made of cardboard and falls apart as soon as the enemy gives

 

Meltas are good, but so is plasma. I would normally recommend having at most one GH squad with Meltas, and give the rest Plasma Guns. Podding one of them in and rapid firing will cramp any MC's style and most tanks. And in case you ever face an Eldar Avatar, he's invulnerable to Meltas, but not Plasma IIRC...

 

I would also rejig both the Wolf Guard and Long Fangs.

Get 3 packs of 6 Long Fangs all with MLs and give them a WG with TDA/CML.

Seriously, ntohing is going to be happy about 15-19 missiles per turn. Trust me on this.

 

I don't really have much to say about the RP. I'm not totally sold on them although I love Njal and believe that he belongs in any 'competitive' SW list.

My favourite power is the one that makes all terrain count as difficult and dangerous for a squad you use it on (Murderous Hurricane?).

 

Land Speeders I absolutely love. Unfortunately their armour is made of cardboard, so I tend to stay clear of them.

 

So, in short, my suggestions are:

Drop Pods, Rhinos or neither (There's nothing wrong with letting the enemy come to you), don't mic DPs/Rhinos, you'll just leave yourself exposed.

18 Long Fangs in a competitive list. With MLs. You'll thank me when you've done it.

 

Less Melta, More Plasma.

Bigger GH squads and favour of fewer toys.

MotW is fluffy perhaps, but I'd rather have a power weapon than rending.

 

Here is my 'competitive' list:

Njal Stormcaller in TDA

2x Lone wolves in TDA SS/TH

3x 6xLong Fangs with MLs

2x 10xGH with 2xPG 1xPF

2x 5xGH with 1 flamer

2x 3Swiftclaws +1Attack Bike 1xPF

2xRazorbacks with TL-LCs

Each Swiftclaw pack have a Wolf Guard with Combi-Melta/Frost Blade assigned assigned and one WG with with FrostAxe and Combi-Melta goes to my Grey Hunters.

2000 points on the nose and barring the Emperor's disfavour it can take on absolutely anything.

 

 

I tried to read the Battle Report, but without pictures I just couldn't visualise what was going on...

[Roland Durendal]

Interesting Batrep, well written too!

 

As for comments, in all somewhat brutal honesty, both lists could use some refinement. Here be my points:

 

SW

- Only 1 HQ @ 2000? Of all the Codexes ours encourages multiple HQ's yet this only has 1. Something is amiss. Moreover, a solitary RP is going to do exactly 0 in a game especially against a solid new era 'Nids list. I'll get more onto that shortcoming when I talk about the Nid list

- That footslogging fourth GH squad is wasted. Unless you start them up close toward the middle of the board in the deployment zone, the most they'd ever do is...nothing. Unless you want a soft target that could be shot to death. The only use for them is if you have objectives in your own deployment zone, but even then with 2 LF packs you should always be able to hold (i.e. contest) the 1 objective that is in your DZ.

- 2 Rhinos and some speeders a Mech Army does not make (yes I said it like Yoda). That lone DP unit is like that footslogging unit...dead and pretty much a freebie to the opponent. As someone mentioned earlier, Pod armies truly need the "Go big or Go Home" concept = either drop all or none.

- I know fluff says tanks are rarely used, but to have not even one?

 

On the upside, I personally love LF's and 2 packs seems strong. Risky, but strong (static firebases are always a huge risk, especially seeing as the new 'Nids have all those crazy Deep Striking units). I don't do it personally, but having Wolf Guard in every squad is also a solid move. It may limit your overall special weapon choices, but in all honesty you may get 2-3 melta shots off a game, so having the combi-melta is about as effective as having 2 regular meltas.

 

Nids

Only a few things here...

- Venomthropes was probably a poor chocie. A much more effective Elites choice would have been some Zoanthropes, purely for their crazy S10 killyness. Granted the range is shorter, but the overall ability to kill vehicles and such outwieghs this shortcoming.

- I don't know if you guys weren't using SC's, but Death Leaper would have been invaluable in this fight. Matter of fact, he'd been invaluable regardless. Not only would he have boosted any reserves (which by the way is my next point), but he would havealmost completely nerfed that lone RP. That ties in with my SW comment about having only 1 HQ. Had the Nids come with Death Leaper and he had a 2nd RP or maybe a Lord or something, the overall affect of the reduced LD wouldn' have been as great. But with only 1 HQ, that SW player is almost begging to be Death Leapered (look I made it into a verb! :-) ) Death Leaper is almost always a solid choice for the new 'Nids

- Mobility wise, with all the deep striking goodness out there (Mawlocs, Trygons, etc.) why wouldn't you capitalize on them? They would have reatly benefitted from the bonus to the reserve rolls and would have pretty much shut down the SW long range shooting (for they would more than likely target those soft LF's).

 

On the upside, troops were fairly solid. I pretty figure Tervigons will become standard in all Nid armies, at least 1, possibly 2. Tyrant and Tyrant Guard are all good, especially the new Shieldwall rule means it's nigh impossible to kill the Tyrant with ranged attacks (unless by sheer volume of fire), and really can only be killed in CC. And since hee's no MC, he doesn't need to be in B2B to strike! Pure brutality right there.

 

Personally I've found Lone Wolves stomp on the new 'Nids. Keep them cheap (termy armor, TH/SS, and maybe a wolf or 2), and laugh as he ties up tyrants and mawlocs and other big nasty things for turns on end.

 

Sorry if this came across harsh or rude, it's not my intent. Just offering some friendly critical advice for the lists for future reference. All in all though, excellent report and I hope to read more like it soon!

 

As for my current semi-competitive list which has been doing solidly:

 

Wolf Lord - Frost Axe, Belt, Necklace, Warrior Born

RP - Chooser, Living Lightning, Tempests, Master of Runes upgrade

5 Wolfscouts - melta, PW, meltabombs

2X Lone Wolves - Termie, TH/SS, 1 or 2 wolves

2X GH Squads - 10 strong, 2X Melta, PW, Mark

2X GH Squads - 9 Strong, Melta, PF, Mark

2X Vindicator

6X LF - 5X LC's

 

Least if I remember my list correctly that's what it was...need to go home when I finish work and check

[antique_nova]

imagine four buildings roughly 6 inches away from each corner of the board, the board is a 4by4. 48 inches by 48 inches and one bang in the middle. then imagine a few barricades between each building in each persons DZ.

 

I should have also said it's a 1500 point game.

 

I also want to say that i am not bashing comments here, but providing my views on them from experience.

 

LPetersson

 

Personally I think that if you're gonna go with drop pods, then you need to go all out and put everything in pods.

If you're gonna field them, use 4 or more so you'll get 2 on the first turn so the enemy has to decide on what to slaughter and leave the rest to be run wild.

Yes, but then you become very very vulnerable to anti-pod tactics, gaurd armies and inquisitor msytic retinues being the bane of your podding tactics.

 

Otherwise you'll have a squad totally isolated that will become an ineffectual speed bump at worst, and a 2 turn annoyance for the enemy at best.

Not how i use them, you don't always have to DS right near the enmy, you can deepstrike like twelve inches away from them behind a building and be able to provide a threat next turn. You would do this if you do not expect your rhinos to reach the enemy lines. So they provide a big distraction for them to reach with rhinos.

 

Incidentally, I hate Rhinos. In the fluff they are these indestructible tanks but in the game they are made of cardboard and falls apart as soon as the enemy gives

They are not described as indestrubtible tanks, they are described as highly durable and adaptable tanks. Plus you try stopping rhinos with a +4 cover save and and extra armour. It's harder that it sounds. especially when one rhino blocks 100% LOS to another.

 

Meltas are good, but so is plasma. I would normally recommend having at most one GH squad with Meltas, and give the rest Plasma Guns. Podding one of them in and rapid firing will cramp any MC's style and most tanks. And in case you ever face an Eldar Avatar, he's invulnerable to Meltas, but not Plasma IIRC...

I have thought about that, and i may do that with the WG, but i need that thunder hammer and i have my thunder hammer have brought down avatars and ctans and hive tyrants to a low many times and they have always been move useful than a power fist. And because he gets 3 attacks most of the time and re-rolls for 1s in one turn i can guarantee i can bring down an MC and kill it while not lossing my entire squad more times than not. I know an avatar is invulnerable to melta, that's why i have lascannons and missile launchers. i can there for afford to use the meltas on the tanks and lascannon and krak an avatar.

 

I would also rejig both the Wolf Guard and Long Fangs.

Get 3 packs of 6 Long Fangs all with MLs and give them a WG with TDA/CML.

Seriously, ntohing is going to be happy about 15-19 missiles per turn. Trust me on this.

Erm, you have a very expensive static army them and that requires more than 293 points per squad of long fangs with that configuration. that's is way too expensive. My wallet and army would not like such an idea. that's almost 900 points and what if the table is terrain heavy?

 

I don't really have much to say about the RP. I'm not totally sold on them although I love Njal and believe that he belongs in any 'competitive' SW list.

Hm, then try them. Njal is way to expensive and limits the amount of troops, mobility and firepower that you can bring to an army.

 

My favourite power is the one that makes all terrain count as difficult and dangerous for a squad you use it on (Murderous Hurricane?).

Yea, i my opponent ditched that for jotww and i don't blame him. It was more useful than MH could ever be in that game.

 

Land Speeders I absolutely love. Unfortunately their armour is made of cardboard, so I tend to stay clear of them.

They support my pod.

 

So, in short, my suggestions are:

Drop Pods, Rhinos or neither (There's nothing wrong with letting the enemy come to you), don't mic DPs/Rhinos, you'll just leave yourself exposed.

So will you if you grab njal and that long fang configuration. leaving you bar bones on troops and you will specialise your list too much. The problem with specialised lists is that they present a weakness that another specialised list can beat. So have a balanced list makes specialised list impossible, unless you fight another balanced list.

18 Long Fangs in a competitive list. With MLs. You'll thank me when you've done it.

 

Less Melta, More Plasma.

Bigger GH squads and favour of fewer toys.

MotW is fluffy perhaps, but I'd rather have a power weapon than rending.

Motw brings more attacks and has the ability for more rending. It has worked better than a power weapon so far.

 

Here is my 'competitive' list:

Njal Stormcaller in TDA

2x Lone wolves in TDA SS/TH

3x 6xLong Fangs with MLs

2x 10xGH with 2xPG 1xPF

2x 5xGH with 1 flamer

2x 3Swiftclaws +1Attack Bike 1xPF

2xRazorbacks with TL-LCs

Each Swiftclaw pack have a Wolf Guard with Combi-Melta/Frost Blade assigned assigned and one WG with with FrostAxe and Combi-Melta goes to my Grey Hunters.

2000 points on the nose and barring the Emperor's disfavour it can take on absolutely anything.

Your swift claws are too few and you don't have that much mobility. you have only razorbacks for mobility and your approach for attack is alot more obviously that mine. your foot slogging as well. and you will be out gunned against a gun line army.

I would also have 5 scoring units in 2k points. You also lack close combat punch and my GH squads will have much more success in close combat than yours. Lone wolves aren't competitive especially in objective missions. Also you lack anti-av14. two lascannons, TL or not doesn't cut it, even you know this and S8 weapons are way too unreliable for such a task.

 

Niiai

 

I would perhaps exachge some of the las cannons or rocket launchers with heavy bolters and turn one of the GH squads into a plasma gun squad for more flexible firepower and game play.

for more anti-horde? heavy flamers hanging back on speeders out of LOS will do with bolters and a DWL ( against horde i wouldn't be bothered if it couldnt' shoot first turn, the problem is the horde must kill it or risk getting shot to death if they try to assault my DZ.

 

Your army has a lott (if not only) power armour. If you meet something that masses a lott of anti power armour (witch I think the other list does) then you are in trouble. Depending on the table you are using the genestealers are a bother for you long fangs. His fexes and Hive guards are just bad.

But my guys are always in cover. so no problem. The fexes and hive guards are bad? in what way, because i don't understand what your saying here.

 

In a non point kill game I would sugest taking out his few troop choises but as it stands now I think you had a very though job in front of you.

few troops choices? the tyranid list has 4 troops choices for a 1500 points game and that is alot. the tervigon can produce scoring units every turn as well.

 

Edit: Your list is not static mobilaty vice but it is not flexible in tactic witch means that very mutch of the game can be decided depended on your oponent's army list. Keep up the good work though.

Explain how my army is not flexible, i have a pod and two speeders to adjust tactics and rhinos to prevent assualts and to assualt. hiding TWC behind tanks and dropping in suicide units to make an enemy panick about that instead of a rhino or TWC is not that flexible, it is a predetermined plan that can't really change. mine can, i can elect to drop units from transports against assualt armies and send them up to block assualtes or contest objectives etc. I am not saying you use the tactics above, but they are examples.

 

I would gladly give anyone a game with my SW list, the best idea to do this would be around end of june,july and pm me.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[antique_nova]

sorry i coudln't prevent double posting, because i quoted too many times.

 

Roland Durendal

 

As for comments, in all somewhat brutal honesty, both lists could use some refinement. Here be my points:

I don't mind brutal comments, as long as i believe that they take both side sof an argument.

 

SW

- Only 1 HQ @ 2000? Of all the Codexes ours encourages multiple HQ's yet this only has 1. Something is amiss. Moreover, a solitary RP is going to do exactly 0 in a game especially against a solid new era 'Nids list. I'll get more onto that shortcoming when I talk about the Nid list

It's 1500 points, i should have pointed that out. sorry!

 

- That footslogging fourth GH squad is wasted. Unless you start them up close toward the middle of the board in the deployment zone, the most they'd ever do is...nothing. Unless you want a soft target that could be shot to death. The only use for them is if you have objectives in your own deployment zone, but even then with 2 LF packs you should always be able to hold (i.e. contest) the 1 objective that is in your DZ.

It's an objective sitting squad. It doesn't foot slog and it supports my long fangs against deep strikers and flankers. however, i denied them from doing so with the spore clusters.

 

- 2 Rhinos and some speeders a Mech Army does not make (yes I said it like Yoda). That lone DP unit is like that footslogging unit...dead and pretty much a freebie to the opponent. As someone mentioned earlier, Pod armies truly need the "Go big or Go Home" concept = either drop all or none.

That pod army phrase is a concept introduced by people from their own experiences. They have not found out how to use pods properly. It's more of a stereotypical view more than anything else. lists that rely on pods are easily countered with horde armies and reserve armies and other pod armies. When i mean easily countered, i mean that the pod armies advantage of strike from above is easily taken away.

 

- I know fluff says tanks are rarely used, but to have not even one?

I already thought about that, but they don't work well with my list and personally from experiences against and usign them they just don't cut into my competitive zone in the wolf codex.

 

On the upside, I personally love LF's and 2 packs seems strong. Risky, but strong (static firebases are always a huge risk, especially seeing as the new 'Nids have all those crazy Deep Striking units). I don't do it personally, but having Wolf Guard in every squad is also a solid move. It may limit your overall special weapon choices, but in all honesty you may get 2-3 melta shots off a game, so having the combi-melta is about as effective as having 2 regular meltas.

Agreed, i also remember that he deployed one long fang squad near side and he should have put the forth GH squad there to block a nidz assualt.

 

Nids

Only a few things here...

- Venomthropes was probably a poor chocie. A much more effective Elites choice would have been some Zoanthropes, purely for their crazy S10 killyness. Granted the range is shorter, but the overall ability to kill vehicles and such outwieghs this shortcoming.

Originally i thought that too, but zoanthropes are literally s8 weapons and will not even get the chance to use 2D6 pen most of the time, most vehciles are AV12 or below and most AV14 tanks you see are land raiders and ones that negate lance. They can also be instant gibbed.

 

- I don't know if you guys weren't using SC's, but Death Leaper would have been invaluable in this fight. Matter of fact, he'd been invaluable regardless. Not only would he have boosted any reserves (which by the way is my next point), but he would havealmost completely nerfed that lone RP. That ties in with my SW comment about having only 1 HQ. Had the Nids come with Death Leaper and he had a 2nd RP or maybe a Lord or something, the overall affect of the reduced LD wouldn' have been as great. But with only 1 HQ, that SW player is almost begging to be Death Leapered (look I made it into a verb! :-) ) Death Leaper is almost always a solid choice for the new 'Nids

Death leaper is costing 160 points for someone who cannot use the +1 to reserve if he hasn't been on the table for atleast one turn. he can't use the +1 reserve power if he DS in the same time. and he can't assualt on the turn he lands. Also i know of his ld ability, but at the points cost of a naked tervigon or ten grey hunters with a plasma gun. he's damned expensive. and against armies that have stubborn leaders or leaders that on't need to use their ld alot that's a big ask.

 

- Mobility wise, with all the deep striking goodness out there (Mawlocs, Trygons, etc.) why wouldn't you capitalize on them? They would have reatly benefitted from the bonus to the reserve rolls and would have pretty much shut down the SW long range shooting (for they would more than likely target those soft LF's).

That's the problem, once they come out, a squad can just plasma/melta spam them and kick their ass in close combat. the GH squads in the sw list can do that. and for almost 200 points for each on that's expensive and your relying on deep strikes again that may take longer to appear. your expecting too much to arrive on turn, 2. guardsmen would have a lovely time against deep strikers with their officer of the fleet.

 

On the upside, troops were fairly solid. I pretty figure Tervigons will become standard in all Nid armies, at least 1, possibly 2. Tyrant and Tyrant Guard are all good, especially the new Shieldwall rule means it's nigh impossible to kill the Tyrant with ranged attacks (unless by sheer volume of fire), and really can only be killed in CC. And since hee's no MC, he doesn't need to be in B2B to strike! Pure brutality right there.

yea, but tyrant guard are reduicously expensive and your hq choice coulld soon become 300 points for three models that are vulnerable to ap weaponary and pod suicide strikes.

 

Personally I've found Lone Wolves stomp on the new 'Nids. Keep them cheap (termy armor, TH/SS, and maybe a wolf or 2), and laugh as he ties up tyrants and mawlocs and other big nasty things for turns on end.

Yea, but how many wounds can you manage? termaguant spam would kill you. and tie you up too as the nidz player laughs at your LW. you deepstrike, the nidz player will tie you up and since you have 3 attacks that's even worse. if they have a dozen of them and keep spamming termaguants into you.

 

Sorry if this came across harsh or rude, it's not my intent. Just offering some friendly critical advice for the lists for future reference. All in all though, excellent report and I hope to read more like it soon!

i am greateful for your support, but try to be less aggressive with your comments and advice. you not being harsh or rude, but it's just the aggressiveness and your one way thinking of it's my may or the highway like so many others is just too much for most. Try to take both sides of the argument and provide your personal experience and choice, without saying you must do this. more like

why not try this, because from my personal experience

. can make a big difference.

 

As for my current semi-competitive list which has been doing solidly:

 

Wolf Lord - Frost Axe, Belt, Necklace, Warrior Born

RP - Chooser, Living Lightning, Tempests, Master of Runes upgrade

5 Wolfscouts - melta, PW, meltabombs

2X Lone Wolves - Termie, TH/SS, 1 or 2 wolves

2X GH Squads - 10 strong, 2X Melta, PW, Mark

2X GH Squads - 9 Strong, Melta, PF, Mark

2X Vindicator

6X LF - 5X LC's

your talking about foot slogging and your doing if, making yourself very vulnerable to pie plates from vindicators etc. you also don't have alot of firepower to take on mech armies or static armies. you approach and use of tactics is also very predictable and your moblity is very low. you also don't have a true objective sitting squad that can contribute with firepower to your list.

 

I also hope that i have not been too aggressive with my comments too.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Roland Durendal]

Hehe no worries. Forgot to mention, all those GH's are in Rhinos. Forgot to type that initially :-)

 

Eh mech armies aren't too hard to counter, what with 5X LC's that can split fire and effecitvely a 30" S10 pie plate.

 

As for LW, I've learned the hard way to keep them away from Tervigons and rank and file troops. Instead, run him as quickly as possible toward the big nasty things. And hell if he does get hit with a bunch of gaunts, he's still serving his purpose of bein a tarpit. THose gaunts are going to take a while to knock him down and while they're too busy trying to kill him, they're not scoring.

[antique_nova]

Roland Durendal

that tactic will backfire because the tervigon is a troops choice for me and he can just spawn more guants....... so your really fighting tarpit against a bigger tarpit :).

Also, did you think the game was 2000 points? and if you did, what do you think of the game and the lists for 1500 points?

thanks

antique_nova

[LPetersson]

LPetersson

 

Personally I think that if you're gonna go with drop pods, then you need to go all out and put everything in pods.

If you're gonna field them, use 4 or more so you'll get 2 on the first turn so the enemy has to decide on what to slaughter and leave the rest to be run wild.

Yes, but then you become very very vulnerable to anti-pod tactics, gaurd armies and inquisitor msytic retinues being the bane of your podding tactics.

Yes, obviously, DPs are very reckless, but using just one is, IMO, foolishly reckless unless you end up sending it down someplace way out of the way.

 

Otherwise you'll have a squad totally isolated that will become an ineffectual speed bump at worst, and a 2 turn annoyance for the enemy at best.

Not how i use them, you don't always have to DS right near the enmy, you can deepstrike like twelve inches away from them behind a building and be able to provide a threat next turn. You would do this if you do not expect your rhinos to reach the enemy lines. So they provide a big distraction for them to reach with rhinos.

Again, then you have a squad running around that has to catch up with what the rest of the army is doing or hope that the opponent doesn't make an example out of them. As much as I don't like Rhinos, at least they'll get you around until they've been wrecked.

 

Incidentally, I hate Rhinos. In the fluff they are these indestructible tanks but in the game they are made of cardboard and falls apart as soon as the enemy gives

They are not described as indestrubtible tanks, they are described as highly durable and adaptable tanks. Plus you try stopping rhinos with a +4 cover save and and extra armour. It's harder that it sounds. especially when one rhino blocks 100% LOS to another.

Anything that can get killed easily by even bolter fire is not hard to kill. a tin box with card board armour is not durable. In the fluff they are, but on the table top they're just scrap heaps waiting to happen.

 

I would also rejig both the Wolf Guard and Long Fangs.

Get 3 packs of 6 Long Fangs all with MLs and give them a WG with TDA/CML.

Seriously, ntohing is going to be happy about 15-19 missiles per turn. Trust me on this.

Erm, you have a very expensive static army them and that requires more than 293 points per squad of long fangs with that configuration. that's is way too expensive. My wallet and army would not like such an idea. that's almost 900 points and what if the table is terrain heavy?

You must have a different codex from me then. in my C:SW 6 LF + 5MLs is only 140 points? And yes, it is static, it's kinda the point when you have that many Long Fangs. and if the table is terrain heavy then you try to create as many fire lanes as possible.

Long Fangs are majestically cheap to field and can do terrible damamge with those cheap missile launchers.

 

So, in short, my suggestions are:

Drop Pods, Rhinos or neither (There's nothing wrong with letting the enemy come to you), don't mic DPs/Rhinos, you'll just leave yourself exposed.

So will you if you grab njal and that long fang configuration. leaving you bar bones on troops and you will specialise your list too much. The problem with specialised lists is that they present a weakness that another specialised list can beat. So have a balanced list makes specialised list impossible, unless you fight another balanced list.

18 Long Fangs in a competitive list. With MLs. You'll thank me when you've done it.

I think you've missed the point here. That is a very balanced list that is remarkably flexible and able to take on anything in any scenario.

Feel free to ask my Eldar/CSM/Tyranid friends. The only reason I got a draw against Tyranids with it once was because I foolishly left too many troops close to the table edge. It's so powerful that I'm not gonna play it anymore unless there's a 2000 point tourney I go to. Winning is too easy with that list.

 

Here is my 'competitive' list:

Njal Stormcaller in TDA

2x Lone wolves in TDA SS/TH

3x 6xLong Fangs with MLs

2x 10xGH with 2xPG 1xPF

2x 5xGH with 1 flamer

2x 3Swiftclaws +1Attack Bike 1xPF

2xRazorbacks with TL-LCs

Each Swiftclaw pack have a Wolf Guard with Combi-Melta/Frost Blade assigned assigned and one WG with with FrostAxe and Combi-Melta goes to my Grey Hunters.

2000 points on the nose and barring the Emperor's disfavour it can take on absolutely anything.

Your swift claws are too few and you don't have that much mobility. you have only razorbacks for mobility and your approach for attack is alot more obviously that mine. your foot slogging as well. and you will be out gunned against a gun line army.

I would also have 5 scoring units in 2k points. You also lack close combat punch and my GH squads will have much more success in close combat than yours. Lone wolves aren't competitive especially in objective missions. Also you lack anti-av14. two lascannons, TL or not doesn't cut it, even you know this and S8 weapons are way too unreliable for such a task.

 

Again, you've missed the point. This is a stand and shoot army. the Long Fangs will ruin anything that's silly anough to get in LoS, GHs and Swift Claws protect the Long Fangs while they kill everything around them and the Lone wolves go out to shake loose anything that's trying to stay out of sight or MCs that might be lurking about. Lone wolves are hugely competitive and very very hard to kill.

Razorbacks for a bit of added LC spam if really needed. Trust me, 15 Krak missiles is all the AV14 you'll ever need outside of apoc. And how often do you actually see AV14 anyway?

Your GH squad might be more successfull in CC, but my GH squad will be backed up by 1 or two Swiftclaw packs and a Lone Wolf. And the Long Fangs will have softened up anything that gets close...

 

Anyway, my point is that your list seems a bit all over the place without really having a cohesive feel to it. And certainly Eldar will run rings around it and I would expect an 'old tyranid' list to overwhelm it with numbers although I don't know how a new list would do.

[antique_nova]

Yes, obviously, DPs are very reckless, but using just one is, IMO, foolishly reckless unless you end up sending it down someplace way out of the way.

Yea, i have thought about that so many times, but i feel have used it enough times to not be foolish and sent in head on into the path of an entire army, just so it can become a rubbish speed bump. mind you, i wasn't playing space wolves in this game.

 

Again, then you have a squad running around that has to catch up with what the rest of the army is doing or hope that the opponent doesn't make an example out of them. As much as I don't like Rhinos, at least they'll get you around until they've been wrecked.

True, but that pod squad was made to stay in the opponent's DZ towards the end of the game. So i don't need it to run around and play catch up. about the opponent making an example out of them, again i feel fairly confident with how to use a drop pod effectively without getting it's arse kicked for no reason.

 

Anything that can get killed easily by even bolter fire is not hard to kill. a tin box with card board armour is not durable. In the fluff they are, but on the table top they're just scrap heaps waiting to happen.

Bolter fire on the back armour yes, the fluff doesn't describe them as super hard tanks, they describe them as very durable, stupidly easy to repair and can transverse in the roughly terrain comfortably. This doesn't refer to the armour of the transport at all, just it's mobility and the simplicity of it's design.

 

You must have a different codex from me then. in my C:SW 6 LF + 5MLs is only 140 points? And yes, it is static, it's kinda the point when you have that many Long Fangs. and if the table is terrain heavy then you try to create as many fire lanes as possible.

Long Fangs are majestically cheap to field and can do terrible damamge with those cheap missile launchers.

Yes, but you said add a wolf guard with a CML for each long fang squad. So i added the cost of 6 wolf guard ( it should have been five but 18 points less, because you only need 5 wolf gaurd ) plus the TDA CML.

 

I think you've missed the point here. That is a very balanced list that is remarkably flexible and able to take on anything in any scenario.

That comment was meant to be aimed at your list.

 

Yes, but i forced my space wolve opponent to place troops close towards the table edge with spore mines, so it won't be a foolish mistake when people start realising how dangerous spore clusters can become when negating your deployment space.

 

Lone wolves are hugely competitive and very very hard to kill. they are, your LW there is about 60-70 points. They only have one chance to teleport and it isn't consistent and can be tarpited with an opponent's tarpit units. Even when they footslog, any opponent would bait them in with tarpit.

They may have FNP, but they are still suseptible to mass bolter fire. And yes they are hard to kill. but easily avoided by mobile armies. providing that they have mobile transports and tanks left.

Your list, because it is so static, it will struggle in objective missions to deny the enemy their own DZ objective, providing your bikers are dead, which they may well be. you will struggle against stand and shoot armies too. Because only aggressive lists win, in any game aggressive teams in other hobbies and sports, that utilise aggressive tactics win. Look at defensive, many people have tried stand and shoot armies, but have they really ever won anything? However, look at the winners and they usually play very aggressively.

 

Anyway, my point is that your list seems a bit all over the place without really having a cohesive feel to it. And certainly Eldar will run rings around it and I would expect an 'old tyranid' list to overwhelm it with numbers although I don't know how a new list would do.

The reason for being all over the place is for balance, abit of everything, if you face a balanced list then you can't specialise against it, because it doesn't depend on any one thing that makes or breaks the list. You may not feel the lists cohesive structure, but i do. Eldar has been smashed every time i play them, infact i enjoy playing against them the most. And an old tyranid list would lose to this, even with overwhelming numbers. The new list is in this bat rep.

 

If you live in england, then PM me and i would be glad to give you a friendly game, where we get a chance to prove our points over pints of beer, a bucket of dice and an army each at our fingertips :).

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Niiai]

Antique_Nova you seem to take moast of the coments as an attack on your person and your tactic witch I will asume is not the case for moast of them. You are to focused on the "horse raise" of who is right and wrong in the argumentations that you do not sitt back and focus on discussing options. Witch is a bit hard when all these people are trying to help you. (Although taking them all on seems to be a good tactic in your threads for generating atension, witch is good.)

 

When I say your army is inflexible I mean that it is very homogen. You have a lott of the same things, and if you meet something that can take out your power armour easaly you will moast likly loose. Your drop pods ass to the flexabilaty (in the form of mobilaty) as does the rhinos but is it realy the same packadge in a diferent wrapping.

 

Your long fangs are good and solid. I would though sugest that you give some of them heavy bolters. I understand I confused you with this.

 

Instead of having 2 long fangs packs with 2 LC and 3 ML and 2 drop pod units with meltas and wolf guards pack leader and whatnot you can instead:

 

1 long fangs with 2 LC and 3 ML. This is a dangerus anti big counter and also and anti horde with the splitt fire.

 

1 Long fangs with 2 ML and 3 HB. This is a good mid range killer (the missile launchers) and you also scare any kind of horde with the 3 bolters witch is a bargain at 60 points.

 

Now if you have one DP with melta wolfs you can drop that and kill tanks. Witch is good. If you are up against an MC you rather want the plasma cannon. Also, if you are up against smaler crafts (rhinos or land speeders etc) 2 twin linked shots from the plasma gun is just as devestating as the melta.

 

Breaking your army up innto more diferent units gives you more options in a "rock paper scizzor" way to think. It also gives your oponent more target options but that is where your skills as a commander comes into play.

 

You do not of course have to listen to what I say, but it is food for thought.

[antique_nova]

Antique_Nova you seem to take moast of the coments as an attack on your person and your tactic witch I will asume is not the case for moast of them. You are to focused on the "horse raise" of who is right and wrong in the argumentations that you do not sitt back and focus on discussing options.

I wouldn't go that far, i am presenting my views that people may not have thought about or taken into account. I lose a little focus on discussing options when i am speed typing my comments, do check, but i don't always talk like this.

 

Witch is a bit hard when all these people are trying to help you. (Although taking them all on seems to be a good tactic in your threads for generating atension, witch is good.)

Many people are saying how about this? And not really presenting an reasons and options that click with my term of competitiveness. Just as mine doesn't click with their terms of competitiveness. I am not sure if i should be offended by your bracketed quote or to take on another mood, please explain that part more clearly please.

 

When I say your army is inflexible I mean that it is very homogen. You have a lott of the same things, and if you meet something that can take out your power armour easaly you will moast likly loose. Your drop pods ass to the flexabilaty (in the form of mobilaty) as does the rhinos but is it realy the same packadge in a diferent wrapping.

Sometimes, you can help copy and pasting, i have tried to not copy and paste as much as possible, but some units are nigh impossible to not to and trying not to copy and apste certain units can affect the competitiveness of your army, as you are shutting out that option again to be a more individual list. yes, but most of my power armour is behind cover, but isn't this problem the same for every other space marine army? take out their tanks and transports and let your anti-meq do the rest of the work thinking. I think your talking about marines in general here.

 

Your long fangs are good and solid. I would though sugest that you give some of them heavy bolters. I understand I confused you with this.

 

Instead of having 2 long fangs packs with 2 LC and 3 ML and 2 drop pod units with meltas and wolf guards pack leader and whatnot you can instead:

 

1 long fangs with 2 LC and 3 ML. This is a dangerus anti big counter and also and anti horde with the splitt fire.

 

1 Long fangs with 2 ML and 3 HB. This is a good mid range killer (the missile launchers) and you also scare any kind of horde with the 3 bolters witch is a bargain at 60 points.

 

You did confuse me, because i do honestly believe i have enough anti-horde. and if you think about facing horders, most of them are in cover or in transporst of some sort or have some sort of creature almost immune to heavy bolters, so more missile launchers and no heavy bolters seem like a solid choice.

I also have one pod in my list, but i have considered heavy bolters and i have found in my game that heavy flamers and bolters have killed far more hoard units that spamming heavy bolters. i have also tried the varient you suggested above some months ago and i found that i suffered alot more against mech armies, because i could not open up the transports for my wolves to assualt the squads inside. This was most noticeable against eldar mech and imperial gaurdsmen vet/chimera spam. After switching to missile launchers again, my games flowed alot more and i won alot more often.

 

Now if you have one DP with melta wolfs you can drop that and kill tanks. Witch is good. If you are up against an MC you rather want the plasma cannon. Also, if you are up against smaler crafts (rhinos or land speeders etc) 2 twin linked shots from the plasma gun is just as devestating as the melta.

It's not for killing tanks, well it doesn't usually but it's jsut there incase i do have a chance and it's to wound MCs like in this batrep. however, a plasma cannon? ahh from the long fangs, however they have a tendency to kill themselves and are less accurate than a plasma gun and do less wounds. yes with a twin linked plasma gun, from a razorback, but the again have a tendency to kill themselves. I also don't have that much luck with plasma guns saving my own guys and i don't want to lose any more men to accidents. My last straw for plasma guns in my drop pod squad was against a hive tyrant before the new nidz codex and i killed my own guy and wounded the tyrant once, however the tyrant was squished by my thunder hammer wolf guard next turn and he only killed 4/5 guys.

 

Breaking your army up innto more diferent units gives you more options in a "rock paper scizzor" way to think. It also gives your oponent more target options but that is where your skills as a commander comes into play.

Yes, but then your army has less cohesion and synergy as a lsit as a whole i believe. with so many options, in this rick/paper/scissor thinking, dont you still rely on a unit or two to win you games too much? Such as biker wolves protecting the LF from assualt and then turbo boost last turn to contest objectives.

 

You do not of course have to listen to what I say, but it is food for thought.

I do and i have been more considerate of your response and spoke in a more friendly manner, while still voicing my opinioins. But do you think i have?

 

thanks

antique_nova