Possible future for "Legions"

[Julgolax]

Well fellow heretics and traitors, once I stop drooling over the last codex released, lemme get to the point.

 

Seeing as how the tyranids, my first xenos army ever just got a giga-ton of schwagg, a dump-load of stardust, and everything cool plus more, possibly chaos will get their TRUE "next edition".

 

Ive had a chance to read the tyranids codex cover to cover over again and I have to say I got giddy thinking about what the chaos space marine codex is festering up to be.

 

The note of "god-specific" codecies lurking around gave me the idea, what if we had the "space marines" formula on the way? And what does that say for other legions of chaos?

 

All things considered, if the 4 gods are covered in detail in codecies themselves (WE, TS, DG, and EC) Could we see a chaos codex that outlines the Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers (my favey), Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and what THEY in turn could do for the "renegades"?

 

In my opinion, going the way of the space marines actually doesn't sound so bad considering people can actually choose the army they want to do, be it a god-specific army or an undivided army and adjust their stats accordingly. The way I see it, like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, the marines generally are the same with numerous smaller differences and so respectively the World Eaters Codex would features it's own special units, wargear, and support total dedication to khorne rather than just a banner and a daemon weapon...

 

On the flip side, the CSM codex would be more general and encompass a farther reaching host of renegades and legionnaires. New Special Characters can be added since the 4 others would be absent from the "standard" codex and finally would offer representation for those lost legions neglected by that puritan Jerkvis and his henchman Gav Thorpustule.

 

Abaddon the Despoiler, The Black Sorcerer Zaraphiston, Fabius Bile, Master Huron Blackheart, Dark Apostle Erebus, Warsmith Manneus Drath, Lord of the Night Zho Sahaal, The Traitorous Twin Omegon, are all just possible examples of special characters but the real thing might be just as innovative. Perhaps even just the "generic character" could be enough to satisfy die hard players. This of course being a "Dark Apostle", "Warsmith", "Lord of Night"(or what ever suits the position), "Hydra Captain"(or what ever suits the position), with a host of special rules to tailor the army as a legion respectively. Now, as fragmented as that sounds, just look at the special characters in the space marine codex such as Shrike, MotF, and good ole Kantor and see what people have made of them.

 

As for the models themselves, I believe that plastic is the new future and definitely new models for at least some of the existing characters because Fabius is looking not so fabulous... Pewter is for special characters, hands down. But for independent characters no hobbyist should be without a crisp, detailed, convertable, plastic form to toy with and convert at leisure. As for the chaos space marines themselves, perhaps 10+ years of 3rd edition Havocs, Raptors, Obliterators, Dreadnoughts, 0 chosen pewters/plastics, and worst of all, no cultist or undivided daemon models, GW could show attention this time around and put effort into creative design and use some of their concept work. (for some reason the awesome concept artwork rarely seems to grow into 3D...

 

But enough of my rambling, what do you suppose will actually become of the codex and are there any updates on the Legion Codecies?

[IronWinds]

Well I would personally go for generic characters over special characters. I wouldn't mind a Dark Apostle lord choice that gives the whole army x ability and is armed with a power weapon that is also a special personal icon, and it would be even nicer if he still got to pick the rest of his wargear himself(for instance wings, combi-x, terminator armor, etc.).

 

That would be nice and I think people would welcome it.

Warsmith. Standard equipment=servo arm. 1 unit of havoks can be taken as elites, or certain units can have tank hunters.

Dark apostle: Dark crozius, acts as a personal icon with a 12" range.

 

Etc.

 

All things considered, if the 4 gods are covered in detail in codecies themselves (WE, TS, DG, and EC) Could we see a chaos codex that outlines the Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers (my favey), Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and what THEY in turn could do for the "renegades"?

 

I don't see it happening. Chaos will be lucky if they get 1 decent codex... I dare not ask for more than 1 who knows how bad they will screw it up.

 

 

But enough of my rambling, what do you suppose will actually become of the codex and are there any updates on the Legion Codecies?

 

If we are *really* lucky, Codex:Legions actually exists and it is our 5th ed codex. I honestly don't think we are that lucky.

[tyrannosaurus]

Can't see legion specific codexes, if/when we get a new one I'm sure it'll all be crammed into one book. Here's my idea though...

 

For each unit type, couldn't there just be an option to upgrade them to legion troops depending on the HQ model?? For example, raptors could be upgraded to night lords for x number of points [giving them additional abilities/weapon choices]. Generic marines could be upgraded to noise marines/plague marines/beserkers/thousand sons/Alpha Legion [infiltrate?] with weapons upgrades included in cost. Havocs could be upgraded to Iron Warriors etc. There are only really one or two defining choices for each legion. Here it would be restricted to one 'signature' unit type.

 

The number of each god could represent fixed unit sizes [e.g. 6 for noise marines O.o].

 

Thefore a Night Lords army would have generic troops/elites but kick ass fast attack choices. Emperor's Children would have generic fast attack/elite choices with shooty troops etc. etc. Much more fluffy.

 

To unloock legion troops, characters from that legion or marked HQs would have to be taken. Characters could also confer free upgrades, e.g. if you took Lucius then you get a free noise marine upgrade, Iron Warriors character lets you upgrade a havoc unit for free etc. There could also be 'generic' legion specific HQs for splinter legions or smaller battles, These would be cheaper, but wouldn't confer the free upgrades.

 

Generic HQ choices [e.g. Daemon Princes] would not be able to 'unlock' the upgrades unless they took a god specific mark. They would also get the powers associated with that mark [e.g. lash for slaanesh DPs]. HQs with marks have to take the same mark as any other HQs. E.g. twin DPs with mark of Slaanesh would both have to be Slaanesh, a Night Lords character would have to be paired with an undecided DP. Therefore Night Lords and Alpha Legion would have to take a legion specific character in order to get upgrades.

 

Emperor's Children would be gimped slightly by unit sizes if they take the upgrades but would have access to cool wargear [blast masters etc.] and the option to have twin lash.

 

If someone wanted to play chaos undecided then they choose a generic HQ [Abbadon/Chaos Lord/undivided DP etc.] but they cannot get any of the upgrades. More flexibility [unit sizes, HQs], cheaper, but no legion specific troops.

[the jeske]

Emperor's Children would be gimped slightly by unit sizes if they take the upgrades but would have access to cool wargear [blast masters etc.] and the option to have twin lash.

6 man squad size would make them unplayable , unless I dont know sonic weapons were builds in and free , and/or master costs no more then 15-20pts. what will not happen.

 

No cult and undivided dex ever. If we ever get a legion dex [or rather a csm dex that brings back the focus on legions] , I doubt we get a lot of special rules. Cult would probablly end up with marks instead of icons[cant lose buff] on their units , they would [maybe] be undivided lords giving small squas sized buffs [ -1ld when figing raptors, infiltration for one csm squad, icons/marks for demons , tank hunter for one unit etc].

[tyrannosaurus]

Emperor's Children would be gimped slightly by unit sizes if they take the upgrades but would have access to cool wargear [blast masters etc.] and the option to have twin lash.

6 man squad size would make them unplayable , unless I dont know sonic weapons were builds in and free , and/or master costs no more then 15-20pts. what will not happen.

 

Sonic weapons as built ins for free sounds reasonable, they're the only troops with signature weaponry, and then one can be upgraded to blast master for 20 points. Aspiring champs still cost though.

 

Was thinking about rules for wordbearers. They could be 'relentless' as they are inspired by their zeal to advance no matter what [or somesuch] plus they wouldn't need icons to summon daemons.

[rottenlad]

The chaos dex is what it is. We have had worse 3rd ed still gives me the willys. Honestly as long as we get a dex with some of the new bells and whistles. Upgrade characters, a land raider variant of our own, some sort of the hq giving a bonus to the whole army, and i want a page count that surpasses the sm codex. Hey I can dream.

[Badhaggis]

wasn't there some talk of some sort of legion spesific rulebooks? it would piss me off if we didnt given that the imperials get loads and we dont even have proper rules for lost and damned. :)

 

anyone got any ideas for which legion needs diffrenct rulebook the most. id say word bearers (more deamons and such) and iron warriors (cause ive got them :rolleyes:)

[David the Despoiler]

I was actually contemplating this with a friend over several days...

 

An idea on how the Codex may be organized;

 

First off, every single model has the special rule "For the Glory of Chaos." Infantry re-roll moral checks, vehicles take -1 to their first damage chart roll of the game.

 

HQ

 

Three choices would be present (not counting special characters). The typical Chaos Warlord, a Sorcerer and the Daemon Prince.

 

Each one of these models has the modern options they have now, 'demonic gifts', mounts, marks, etc, and the unique ability to purchase a "Legion" upgrade. This upgrade affects the entire army (in the same way that Chapter Tactics does Space Marines). The particular Legion has certain restrictions on mark and unit choices (as one would expect). It replaces the "For the Glory of Chaos" special rule with either an upgrade to the statline or a special rule.

 

Now, I am reluctant to dubb every single leader of a Renegade Chapter a Chaos Lord, as Chaos Lords should be figures of power, not just a title any newby can adopt simply because he feels like it. The Chaos Warlord would be the equivalent of a Space Marine captain stats-wise (not considering marks).

 

I'd consider the Warlords of the Legions to be Chaos Lords proper. But, terminology aside!

 

The characters themselves would also benefit from additional special rules from their marks, which ought to be more inbred then just a simple point on or off from the statline!

 

Troops

 

Three troop choices would be present. The Cultists, Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Leggionaires. Cultists would be the good ol' "3s across the table meat shields" we all know and love. The Chaos Space Marines will be the renegades from recently turned chapters. The Chaos Legionnaires (as their name suggests) will be the hard-fighting veterans from the Chaos Legions. The Cultists and Chaos Marines can take marks proper (ie, Khorne +1 attack, Tzeentch +1 to invulns, Nurgle Defensive Grenades and +1 to cover saves, Slaanesh +1 I, etc). The Legionnaires, however when they are marked, will become the Cult troops proper (as such Veterans would surely have dedicated themselves fully to the God of their choosing by now). All Leggionaires will have the basic statline a Khorne Berzerker does now. WS 5, Str 4, T 4, 2 Attacks. The Khorne Berzerkers themselves will have Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy to acknowledge them from the others, not to mention a 3rd attack from the Mark of Khorne proper. The Thousand Sons gain their 4+ invuln and ap3 bolters (yes, and they get grenades). The Plague Marines will be Toughness 5 proper with Feel no Pain. The Noise Marines will continue to fight with their regalia of Sonic Weaponry.

 

The Chosen will be simply dictated by which unit the Character decides to join, as he can choose any unit of Legionnaires as his chosen, giving them one bonus proper to his mark or Legion.

 

It's just a thought, but I think that using this system, one would be able to make either a Renegade Chapter, a Legion, a mix of the two or something else entirely.

Well, that was what my friend and I were also discussing. What the Legion upgrade would bring to the units.

 

We were thinking that Iron Warriors, since that is clearly the Legion you're thinking about, would add an extra AP to all weapons and plus one on the vehicle pen, to show their proficiency and skill with ranged weaponry! I imagine this may result in some ridiculous things (ap3 Reaper Autocannons, AP 2 battle cannons, etc) but it's just a thought we were rolling around.

 

For the World Eaters, we came to a general consensus that Fleet and "Overcharged Rhinos" (hint, hint, BAs) would do the trick.

 

For the Alpha Legion, the only logical choice was either outflank (like the White Scars) or infiltrate as a whole.

 

For the Death Guard, the idea rolling about in our minds was to make the extra "toughness" granted at the moment a solid addon, so troops really would be toughness 5 and -1 on all Vehicle damage chart rolls.

 

For the Night Lords, the idea was to give them all Acute Senses and make Raptors troops. The Raptors themselves also deserve a makeover. What we were thinking is that the Raptors should all be Legionnaires basically. Capitalizing on their use of Vox casters would thus result in a 6" "Pinning" aura. Any enemy unit within 6" of a member of the Raptors squad must take a pinning test at the end of the Chaos shooting phase (the Raptors may either do this along with running, but may not shoot either way). And then bring Daemonic Visage back, -1 Ld to all enemies in combat with them and an extra -1 Ld if they're outnumbered by the Raptors.

 

The Thousand Sons were a tricky Legion. Their AP3 bolters were a must to keep, and this would extent to Rubric Terminators and Legionnaires. Universal "Fearless" was a must, once again, for all except the Cultists and the Chaos Space Marines. I don't see how Chaos Space Marines that just recently joined the Legion of the Sorcerers were turned to dust on purpose, so I don't think they would have any such difficulty. The Thousand Sons themselves, as a unit, have a 4+ invuln, special weapons (with sorcerous upgrades, depending on the weapon), Frag and Krak grenades ( :P ) but no Pistols+CC weapons. I'd change "The Sorcerer Commands" to this; You can choose whether to use Slow and Purposeful or move at normal speed, thus representing the Sorcerer rushing his automatons into position. The special weapons would be upgraded, depending on the weapon. The flamer would be upgraded so that its flames eat corrosively at an opponent. After the weapon is fired, any model hit by the template but not killed will take another str 3, ap6 hit in the next friendly shooting phase. The flames go out after this. The plasma guns ignore overheat (how are you going to cook sand alive? turn it to glass?). The meltagun's range is increased by 2 inches (its "Melta" range increased by 1"). Vehicle wise, I think that a 6+ Invuln to show their sorcerous blessings will do. The Thousand Sons that are under the actual Legion will gain an extra invuln point, making them essentially Legion of the Damned.

 

The Black Legion would not be the norm. It would also be a Legion upgrade. In order to show their tactical capabilities and how well they work together, the Black Legionnaires may field any combination of the cult troops (although I'm sure some rules to represent their animosity for each other would be made) and mark units/vehicles at whim (however, units still can't join vehicles with different marks). Whichever unit the character leading the Warband joins (as in, dedicated as his retinue) may gain one of the following USR; Infiltrate, Scout, Tank Hunters (only for one turn), Relentless (only for one turn).

 

However, the two Legions that had us both stumped were the Word Bearers and Emperor's Children. Being fearless is already present throughout the army (all of the cult troops, the possessed, Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes, etc, etc) and this is one of the main parts of being a part of one of these Legions, either being far too ecstatic to know fear or far too devoted to care.

 

We were tempted to put an emphasis on the Possessed for the Word Bearers, but we were unsure. So any insight into this would be helpful! For the Emperor's Children, perhaps omni-present sonic weaponry (sort of like the upgrades made by Vulcan)?

 

That pretty much sums up what I was thinking. ;)

[LorgarXVII17]

I highly doubt GW will make 9 different legion books. Its just not going to happen. I can see them makes a codex for the 4 god-specific legions, but for the undivided? Like the normal space marines, they would just use the same original "Chaos Space Marines" book. BUT, if it does happen, and a codex is made for every legion, they could finally do the Word Bearers justice and make a few special characters for them. That in itself is heresy beyond imagination. How dare we question the will of Games Workshop. We should all learn for every Chaos space marine codex update theres about 6 space marine updates. But before we start talking about any more new books, maybe we should finally let those poor Dark Eldar players have that update they deserve so bad :P .