Problems with Codex 5th Ed.

[saphius]

I do enjoy the 5th ed codex but I feel there are some huge design holes and even missing unit entries. I wondered if anyone else felt the same so I decided to start this thread to see if others felt there were some design holes. - Some of which I thought should have been fixed with the FAQ but were.

 

So I was a little annoyed at the 10 man Drop pods, landraiders, and more expensive Razorbacks (5 pts I know but why?). Not being able to take pack leaders and 2 Special weapons. - If you wanted them in a transport. But all of these things were mitigated with some of the cool additions. - Banners on GH, MoTW in squads, etc etc... I saw that they were trying to make it cool and balanced and rather than costing things higher, in most cases, they just took options away. - Not the best design philosophy in my book but I felt they struck a reasonable balance for the most part.

 

But they missed the mark on a few things and it... irks me. - No 13th Co. in the codex. I felt even a unique, even overcosted, unit option a'la Legion of the Dammed would have been fine by me. They were and are such an integral part of the Space Wolves story and a huge reason I respect them. Keeping them out of the codex all together I felt was an injustice. They should have at the very least made Grey Slayers an option, maybe even units of Wulfen, if not an entire list possibility. I also believe even 1 13th Co special Character would have added so much flavor and character to the codex that it seems a no brainer to get them in there in some capacity.

 

Next comes a design flaw that doesn't make sense to me. - Grey Hunters are the best equiped unit in the codex. Why do Wolf Guard ditch their weapons when they graduate from the Hunter ranks? Where has your bolt pistol gone my friend? - I wouldn't mind paying 25pts a model just to add a bolt pistol/bolter to the model. The additional attack they have in many cases becomes a useless as Hunters are better equiped than their senior counterparts. I have the same qualm with most all HQ choices. They should all have the Bolter, BP, and CCW loadout - even if it costed more points. One of the things I was looking forward to the most in the codex was being able to equip my lord with Wolf Claws and a Combi Weapon, etc etc... The only units, off the top of my head, that should not have the 3 weapon loadout are scouts and Bloodclaws. For mobility and right of passage reasons, respectively. An injustice if you ask me.

 

I'm bothered next by the fact that Wolfguard can't mount on thunderwolves. - Also making it impossible to attach the to a TW unit. I wish I could do a cool (albeit super expensive) Wolf Guard unit on Thunderwolves. Also not being able to attach them is frustrating.

 

I also am baffled at why you can't attach Wolfguard to Skyclaw units. - You can buy their ridiculously overpriced Jumpacks but can't attach them to a Skyclaw unit? I'm not complaining about points and it's awesome that you can run a Jumpy Wolf Guard but leaving the recruits without any leadership seems stupid to me.

 

Iron priests no longer as IC - Ok, I can deal with this. They can take cyber wolves -awesome. They can take thralls and a cool saga - awesome. They can be mounted on a wolf and become a good killing unit. - Ok this hes starting to sound great. No IC but can handle himself but wait... he has... 1 wound? Even though he isn't an IC 1 wound just doesn't cut it for a 100 pt model on a wolf. I'd love to use him but why did you steal his wound? How does it make sense that he only has 1 wound on a wolf when my cavalry have 2? - On that note I felt that TW Cav should add a wound, not rending. I know this my be a stretch for some people - up the points I don't care - but if you did this then giving the option to Wolf Guard would actually be viable. - Even if the wolf itself as an upgrade costed 50-75 pts per model I still think it would be viable and fun as heck. Not to mention that Rune Priest and Wolf Priests prefer the metal counterparts or flying in the sky. (according to the codex, which I'm fine with). Really it would only effect the few units that could take the wolves and in the current codex that's only 3. (Lord, Leader, and Iron Priest if I remember correctly)

 

 

Granted I have a few other small picky things but I realize that this is give and take and have no problem conceading some of my points of view but these I feel are very big design flaws in the book. I really like some of the options. I am proud of our Grey Hunters and their awesomeness, even if we must give a little to get it. But when I try to dive into other aspects of the codex to creating and tailor a list that I not only like, but really love, I find myself wanting in a few areas and do feel constrained when I try and make a list. I don't have this problem with the other new codecies. I dive into the IG codex and it seems I run out of points far to quickly and have way to many good, cool, options available. I don't feel the same with the SW codex. I felt it was on the brink of something awesome but just landed on good. - I'm not talking about list power either. I know it can pack a punch as well as any of the 5th ed codecies but I still desired slightly more out of it.

 

Any thoughts on how to make this codex my own and really fall in love with it? I've been a loyal Wolf for well over ten years but I find myself being pulled to other codecies as far as versatility goes. I still think the SW have the best fluff and feel of any army out there but don't think their army selection did them as much justice as it could have. Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

Please, save me before I become a Blood Angel else I just might go pick up Twighlight, some black nail polish, and a razorblade to get started.

 

Edit: And Bjorn can't take a DP. You're really going to make him trudge over there and not just drop him in the middle? C'mon now.

[Night Runner]

I agree with you on the 13th co. I am sure that if they held the launched of the codex for a month or two, and added 6 pages for the 13th background and army list and added 5 quid to the price, we would all have bought the codex just the same and been all the happier for it. But I guess we should be thankful for what we got.

 

W.r.t the TWC they are WG but with lower LD and fewer weapons options. Strange? Yes definitely. Especially when the codex states that they are WG from the 'upper echelons' of the Guard!!!!

 

Overall though, I am very happy with the codex, even though there is room for improvement. If you like the fluff then you will find a way to make it work for you. Try choosing one of the Great Companies that suits your taste of play and mould an army to that tactical effect. Otherwise become a Blood Angel,... at least they have fangs!

[theonelawler]

i am hoping that a Apocalypse update will come out soon with a 13th co. data sheet in it.

[SpaceWolf13C]

i agree with everything u said. some kind of 13th company option would be great. and i never understood why wolf guard on mounts get a wound but ICs dont.

[Godhead]

I would assume Ld 8 vs Ld 9 is due to the savage nature of the wolf. They can be hard to manage when they get their blood up. And if you take into account the fact that wolf guard doesn't have uber grit, then it makes even more sense to go with a combi melta/pfist set up... or a single wolfclaw/combi bolter.

[Coverfire]

Personally, I just hate the lack of powerweapons for our Blood Claws.

 

But as the TWC seem to be the units most talked about thus far, I have to say that Rending doesn't impress me all that much. Give me more access to powerweapons... you can keep your rending.

 

Now, Bjorn NOT being able to Drop Pod, although annoying, it does make sense. He is too old to be on that Battlefield and only really used to defend The Fang. But why... Does he not have Extra Armour?

 

As a 13th Co. player, I would have looked a bit of flavour in our codex. Just a single Character even, and any models picked in the army lead by the character HAD to increase their cost by 5pts (and Blood Claws become Storm Claws getting +1 WS/BS) giving the models +1 Attack.

 

I am still trying to make a list that suits me. I now think I player 13th Co. too much pre-codex release and now everything just seems too slow.

[Spacefrisian]

Razorbacks: same price as Marine version.

 

For the rest i agree.

[LPetersson]

I see what you mean and largely agree.

 

I think that GW has missed a trick in their drive to standardise and homogenise the various codices.

I.e. No more 13th company, different Eldar craftworlds, differences between Chaos Legions and so on...

 

I hope that the next C:CSM will have rules for different legions and that we'll at some point get a mini codex like C:Armageddon(?) with 13th Co and other special forces in them. Or maybe something from Forgeworld...

 

Other than the lack of 13th Co, I'm actually happy with our codex. WG not joining Skyclaws makes sense to me given the fluff, LD8 for TW riders makes sense since they have to keep a large vicious animal under control.

The loss of the BP is hugely frustrating and annoying though >_<

[Araith]

Many of your points I don't agree with...

 

As Spacefrisian said, Razorbacks aren't any more expensive than in the Codex: Space Marines.

 

Then taking two special weapons and a pack leader in a transport not being possible, personally I really like that part. It forces you to make a real choice of how to equip your packs instead of just taking everything in a default pack you see everywhere.

 

As for Wolf Guards not having three weapons, you're right that for Wolf Guard packs themselves it's a bit strange, but keep in mind those same Wolf Guards also go around playing pack leader for Blood Claws, where they'd look off also lugging around boltguns. Even so, if they did have three weapons Wolf Guard packs in power armour would be more attractive than they are now.

Wolf Guards not having thunderwolf options does make sense, since Thunderwolf riders are all already supposed to be Wolf Guards. That said, Night Runner is right that they're lacking in leadership and weapon options if that is indeed the case.

 

And Iron Priests having only one wound for a 95 points model on a wolf is indeed little. But you know, you don't have to put him on a wolf. He is just an Iron Priest, if he were to have two wounds, I'd like my Wolf Guards to have two too.

 

All this disagreement aside... I do agree with you on the lack of 13th Company. Even though I'd rather not see a unit like the Legion of the Damned, a special character would be both really suitable and fitting GW's design philosophy of the last few codices. The Wolf Priest Sternhammer, with the option to take a unit of Wulfen and a special rule applying to the rest of the army - for example forbidding the inclusion of vehicles and giving all packs Move Through Cover and Scouts.

[SamaNagol]

The original 13th Company list was only 3 pages long. They could have easily fit it in at the expense of some fotos of models.

 

When I asked Phil Kelly about it he got quite defensive and started talking about the cost of adding in pages to a codex which was nothing to do with it. Very strange.

[Hfran Morkai]

13th Company could do with more fluff representation but I feel you can create a great list from the codex, all you have to do is restrict access to vehicles and terminator armour.

 

The problem was 13th Company was too strong in 5th, everything could outflank, Long Fangs with special weapons outflanking anyone?

 

The list is all up to how you believe a 13th Company force looks like but a paragraph of fluff is just cruel.

 

I believe the reason WG don't carry three weapons is due to them having found a preference in combat style and emphasising it.

 

I'm more upset about no pack leader for my Skyclaws, it could have bee really dangerous with WG and a wolf priest.

 

But what really annoys me is the apparent lack of proof-reding e.g. the choosr of the slain armoury reference telling you to reference the Iron Priest, basic mistakes.

 

Also I would have preferred to keep true grit and have two power weapons on basic troopers and up to three for Blood Claws.

 

But hey, we've got frost blades for Terminators thanks to the FAQ!

[nurglespuss]

OK First off, alot of this was already discussed when the codex came out, so might want to take a look at that to add to your own musings:

 

So I was a little annoyed at the 10 man Drop pods, landraiders, and more expensive Razorbacks (5 pts I know but why?).

 

For why? they can transport blood claws and wolf guard, thats why they're more expensive :)

 

Not being able to take pack leaders and 2 Special weapons. - If you wanted them in a transport. But all of these things were mitigated with some of the cool additions. - Banners on GH, MoTW in squads, etc etc... I saw that they were trying to make it cool and balanced and rather than costing things higher, in most cases, they just took options away.

 

Yes, this was a great design moved, promoting balance play, and capturing their character.

 

But they missed the mark on a few things and it... irks me. - No 13th Co. in the codex.

 

I can understand why this may bug you, but they were just added 'recently' anyhow, its no real loss that they are gone. I much prefer 'wulfen' or marines with the mark to be far far fewer.

 

I felt even a unique, even overcosted, unit option a'la Legion of the Dammed would have been fine by me.

 

What would you have dropped instead?

 

They were and are such an integral part of the Space Wolves story and a huge reason I respect them. Keeping them out of the codex all together I felt was an injustice.

 

Again, they are a pretty 'new' thing, in the whole space wolf imagery (apart from occasional mentions, that got stronger as new fluff was written/ old fluff re-written.

 

They should have at the very least made Grey Slayers an option, maybe even units of Wulfen, if not an entire list possibility.

 

That would have diluted the codex in my opinion.

 

I also believe even 1 13th Co special Character would have added so much flavor and character to the codex that it seems a no brainer to get them in there in some capacity.

 

Now that one makes more sense! I heartily agree. A special character, or oath or whatever, that would allow one unit of e.g. blood claws to all have mark of the wulfen, for the points cost.

 

Next comes a design flaw that doesn't make sense to me. - Grey Hunters are the best equiped unit in the codex.

 

Yep, thats a KEY pont GW is currently emphasising in their marine codex's, Tactical marines/Grey hunters, are pretty much marines at their fighting peak, very experienced (though not veterans - in the unit entry sense of the word).

 

Why do Wolf Guard ditch their weapons when they graduate from the Hunter ranks? Where has your bolt pistol gone my friend?

 

I can't remember where it says it in the new codex, but basically the wolf guard concentrates on its favourite fighting style/weapon combo to hone it to perfection. So would not remain 'multi-equipped'.

 

I have the same qualm with most all HQ choices. They should all have the Bolter, BP, and CCW loadout - even if it costed more points.

 

Yes I agree.

 

One of the things I was looking forward to the most in the codex was being able to equip my lord with Wolf Claws and a Combi Weapon, etc etc...

 

How exactly, does he have 3 arms? :P How powerful do you want him to be?

 

The only units, off the top of my head, that should not have the 3 weapon loadout are scouts and Bloodclaws. For mobility and right of passage reasons, respectively. An injustice if you ask me.

 

Or the fact that they couldn't be counted on to stand and shoot with the bolters?

 

I'm bothered next by the fact that Wolfguard can't mount on thunderwolves.

 

Well, basically, how many thunderwolves do you think there are? they are supposed to be RARE.

 

- Also making it impossible to attach the to a TW unit. I wish I could do a cool (albeit super expensive) Wolf Guard unit on Thunderwolves. Also not being able to attach them is frustrating.

 

They simply dont need it, they are more than hard enough already.

 

I also am baffled at why you can't attach Wolfguard to Skyclaw units.

 

It explains why in their description. Induction into the skyclaws is a punishment and possible death sentance, not what would be awarded to a wolfguard.

 

Iron priests no longer as IC - Ok, I can deal with this. They can take cyber wolves -awesome. They can take thralls and a cool saga - awesome. They can be mounted on a wolf and become a good killing unit. - Ok this hes starting to sound great. No IC but can handle himself

 

all true and good, its quite a cheap effective unit, but one that gets out-chosen by the other cool entries.

 

but wait... he has... 1 wound? Even though he isn't an IC 1 wound just doesn't cut it for a 100 pt model on a wolf. I'd love to use him but why did you steal his wound? How does it make sense that he only has 1 wound on a wolf when my cavalry have 2?

 

He's just an iron priest, no sense having yet another 2 wounder running around.

 

- On that note I felt that TW Cav should add a wound, not rending. I know this my be a stretch for some people - up the points I don't care - but if you did this then giving the option to Wolf Guard would actually be viable. - Even if the wolf itself as an upgrade costed 50-75 pts per model I still think it would be viable and fun as heck.

 

Just plain disagree on this one, I'll keep the 50pt thunderwolves thanks.

 

Edit: And Bjorn can't take a DP. You're really going to make him trudge over there and not just drop him in the middle? C'mon now.

 

This is also explained. Think about most GW fiction you read, drop podding is not a 'safe way' to enter battle, there is noway the space wolves would risk their most revered living link to leman russ and past glory etc. on a loss due to something as insignificant as a drop pod crash, or being shot out of the sky.

 

I really really like the new wolf codex, the last one was terrible, and encouraged cheesy, powergaming armies.

 

I would have like to have thunderwolf mounts for wolf priests/rune priests. I would have liked bikes for scouts and shot guns. And the Ironclad.

 

But all the cool stuff, and the sheer effort put in, make it an absolute success in my book. Plus its very fun to play with, and you don't feel bad taking the odd powerful unit anymore, as the army is much more balanced, and it fits in character.

[Chodjinn]

How long has the codex been out? How many threads like this have their been?

 

Why can't people be happy with what they have been given?

 

Jeez, I'm fed up of threads like this "I don't like this" and "it should have been xx points" whinge whinge whinge moan moan moan . . . if you don't like it go collect another army/find another hobby.

 

People take this far to seriously, 40k is a tabletop wargame with a huge amount of rules/armies etc, GW are never going to get everything right and please everyone all of the time. ;) happens, rules get overlooked etc. So be happy with your lot and enjoy the hobby, and not cloggin up forums with whiney threads.

 

If the FAQ doesn't fix it, then tought luck, move along.

 

* rant over *

[Ullr Direfang]

thank you nurglespuss and chodjinn. these have been discused before, and i really don't understand all the hate. granted there are parts that i strongly dislike and feel the army could do with out, but i am not sitting here saying that they should be changed. i personally love the nwe 'dex. so much that i am pondering selling my IG because i can't make a list there that i am truely happy with there but have made many with the wolves (now if i could only play more games).

 

oh and just look up some rumors for the BA, granted it will be like SW and only about half will be true, but they look just nasty.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I quite like the new codex, only problems for me is the jumpfrom 3 men to 5 men for wolf guard terminator heavy weapons, I'd spent time converting them and now I only ever use 1, shame, the loss of the Iron preist's 2nd wound, option to take a Strom shields and IC status, where I used to have him in most of my lists, I now don't use that often when this is combined with the Non Bjorn Venrables getting kicked out of the HQ and only having 3 elite slots, and I've just converted some wolf scouts in Thunder armour so I am not sure about converting Cyber wolves for Jason Ogg to have as a bodyguard. That and the nerfing of Wolf priests, gone are the days when my wolf preist could wipe out a 3 man SM bike unit on his own and then charge an attack bike and kill it himself, why can't he take frost blades anymore?

[Valerian]

I made a similar thread immediately after the release of the codex. You can find that earlier thread and our discussion here.

 

Several of the issue that I brought up were recently addressed with the release of the Errata/FAQ document in early January.

 

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

i am hoping that a Apocalypse update will come out soon with a 13th co. data sheet in it.

 

Sternhammers Wulfen?

 

The release of the new Codex shouldn't have invalidated that Apoc Sheet, especially as it's Apoc. :)

[Chodjinn]

thank you nurglespuss and chodjinn. these have been discused before, and i really don't understand all the hate. granted there are parts that i strongly dislike and feel the army could do with out, but i am not sitting here saying that they should be changed. i personally love the nwe 'dex. so much that i am pondering selling my IG because i can't make a list there that i am truely happy with there but have made many with the wolves (now if i could only play more games).

 

oh and just look up some rumors for the BA, granted it will be like SW and only about half will be true, but they look just nasty.

 

Not hate at all, just fed up of the same useless threads appearing discussing things that can't and wont be changed in the codex. I love the new codex, yeah we lost a couple of small things, but on the whole it was a great job. And we can't have everything can we, otherwise every other army would just cry cheese etc. The codex is balanced, and with the new FAQ sorting out the important issues (well, for me anyway) I'm really not bothered about the odd loss here and there because we gained so much.

[Ullr Direfang]

thank you nurglespuss and chodjinn. these have been discused before, and i really don't understand all the hate. granted there are parts that i strongly dislike and feel the army could do with out, but i am not sitting here saying that they should be changed. i personally love the nwe 'dex. so much that i am pondering selling my IG because i can't make a list there that i am truely happy with there but have made many with the wolves (now if i could only play more games).

 

oh and just look up some rumors for the BA, granted it will be like SW and only about half will be true, but they look just nasty.

 

Not hate at all, just fed up of the same useless threads appearing discussing things that can't and wont be changed in the codex. I love the new codex, yeah we lost a couple of small things, but on the whole it was a great job. And we can't have everything can we, otherwise every other army would just cry cheese etc. The codex is balanced, and with the new FAQ sorting out the important issues (well, for me anyway) I'm really not bothered about the odd loss here and there because we gained so much.

 

i didn't intended that you or nuglespuss where hating, i was referring to the others. and i fully agree with you stance on the issue at hand with this thread.

 

and much like you the FAQ only cleared 1 thing up for me, and it was for a model i don't plan on using, every thing else was ruled the way i was doing it.

[saphius]

Hmmm... I wasn't hating. Seems someone has a bad case of the grumpies. I was just pointing out some frustrations. While I do feel they did do some impressive things with the codex - TW Cav were a nice surprise, they got Grey Hunters perfectly, and most of the codex is pretty good.

 

But I still feel, and figured a SW forum was an appropriate place to discuss this - correct me if I'm wrong, that it was a few pages short of being awesome. And some of the non-universal wargear is frustrating. (Diff size pods, Our DP not being able to have locator beacons, Etc...)

 

It wasn't my intentions to upset you when I brought up my qualms with the codex. It just is hard to swallow sometimes when you reflect on the fact that it will be as such for another ten years. - Maybe forever.

 

Edit: And the FAQ didn't answer most of my questions. So I guess I'll just, what was that again, move along? - Whatever that means.

[Thunderpup]

I wasn't around for the last Codex, so i don't have much to compare. Honestly though, i like the codex mostly. It's the first to really draw me in beyond the stats&rules.

 

As for Iron priests, meh, 4 cyberwolves = four more wounds.

 

No DP for Bjorn? Is there any Independent Character that can take a dedicated transport? And on the plus side how many other dreadnoughts(walkers) can join other units?

 

As for 13th Company. Aren't those companies lost? I just figured they got incorporated into the other companies if they get themselves found. <shrugs>

 

Just how i look at it. I feel for you vets that remember the old codex and miss old rules.

 

Just my humble opinions,

 

Blood Claw Pup.

[SamaNagol]

The issue with the 13th Co. is they were a variant list to represent the ORIGINAL lost company who are still lost. That's why they had whole packs of Wulfen and even Wulfen Lords. They were some of the best background made tangible in the history of the game and a lot of people had an emotional attachment to them. Anyone who used them retains a fondness for those frothing loonies.

 

I can understand that really they would have been 3 pages of a really sub-par army in 40K Mech edition, but it would have just been..... cool.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i miss my 13th company. the amount of hate the could unleash was awesome...

 

WLK

[Wildfire]

Jeez, I'm fed up of threads like this "I don't like this" and "it should have been xx points" whinge whinge whinge moan moan moan . . . if you don't like it go collect another army/find another hobby.

 

Ranting about other people's rants? :lol:

[Legatus]

I disagree with a lot of the OP points. I do play Space Wolves since 3rd Edition, and was playing them last time two months before the new Codex was released, in a small campaign. At that time I was excited about the soon to be released new Codex, but when it finally was, I was pretty disappointed. I felt it had some flawed additions (like Thunderwolves) and made Space Wolves units too strong compared to Codex units without there being justification for it or compensation in the form of higher costs.

 

 

No 13th Co. in the codex. I felt even a unique, even overcosted, unit option a'la Legion of the Dammed would have been fine by me. They were and are such an integral part of the Space Wolves story and a huge reason I respect them. Keeping them out of the codex all together I felt was an injustice.

I disagree. The 13th company at one point was a fascinating part of the Space Wolves' legends. GW should never have made rules for them in the first place, and I think it was a mistake that they did. They should have remained a legend, and we should still be wondering whether they were still alive and hunting Traitors in the Eye of Terror or whether they are ling gone. Them popping out of the Eye occasionally to help imperial forces is just weak.

 

 

Grey Hunters are the best equiped unit in the codex. Why do Wolf Guard ditch their weapons when they graduate from the Hunter ranks? Where has your bolt pistol gone my friend?

I agree that this makes no sense, Grey Hunters being better equipped than Wolf Guard, but I disagree with the proposed solution. In the contrary I think Grey Hunters should not have ultra grit. I kinda like the thought of having standard units that have 3 attacks when carging or being charged with a 15 pt model, but it makes no sense for Space Wolves to be equipped that way. It was ok for Chaos Marines, since they are supposed to be 10k year old Veterans that are armed to the teeth with looted weapons and needed something to counterbalance the loyalist ATSKNF, but when Space Wolves are also able to carry that many weapons, then why aren't Codex Marines? It clearly is a benefit in combat, so if it is witin the capabilities of a Marine to carry such weapons then there is no reason why Codex Marines wouldn't.

 

 

I'm bothered next by the fact that Wolfguard can't mount on thunderwolves.

I am bothered by there being Space Marines riding on wolves at all. It is ridiculous.

 

"The WHFB Goblins just called. They want their mounts back."