First encounters with the new 'Nids

[RedDeath]

Couldn't find another thread for this, thought it'd be interesting to see how other Chaos players are fairing against the new nids. My housemate has been excited about the new codex for far too long, and decided to break it out for a few games this Sunday just passed.

 

Things to watch out for:

 

Lash whip/bonesword warriors: Shoot these guys asap. The lash whips now make you I1 and the boneswords are power weapons. Three wounds and a decent amount of charging attacks mean if there are 4+ of them they'll slaughter pretty much whatever they charge. Power fists now causing instant death is fantastic, but if they charge anything less than an 8+ man squad, you probably aren't getting those power fist attacks. fear these things.

 

Hive Tyrants: are now nasty as hell. Last Nid dex I could rely on a warptime prince squaring off against a Tyrant in a decent fight and usually coming out on top. With lashwhip and bonesword (on top of their heavy venom cannon or whatever your opponent feels like adding) you're again I1 against their attacks. Not only that, but they now have a psychic power that makes you WS1. And to make matters that little bit worse, they make you take those warptime tests on 3D6, and any double 1s or 6s are a perils of the warp. I did take one out in combat in a game, but it took a Daemon prince, a defiler and an entire CSM squad soaking up the hits of a Tyrant and 2 guard (which are also T6, and have multiple wounds). In short, you're less likely to get a lucky 2x melta shot and powerfist assault that takes out a Tyrant now, and if they have a pair of guards you may as well just run away. Oh, and they regenerate by rolling a D6 for each wound lost every Nid turn, and on a six the wound comes back. Fear these things. On the plus side, they're still damn slow.

 

Hive Guard have assault 2 S8 BS4 24" missiles per turn. They aren't a massive threat, and can be avoided for the most part if the rest of the Nid army is charging at you, just be aware they can move and shoot. I was taking hits to the side armour or my preds from turn 3 onwards in one game, which couldn't pivot to face them cause they had other, more important targets.

 

Trygons will eat a unit of marines without much reply if not dealth with. Unless your opponent is nice enough to deepstrike it in on a remote unit, it will go through marine squads with 6 attacks at S6 and I6. It doesn't have an invunverable, which is nice, but it's fleet so it can make a 13" charge minimum on that massive base. It's not massively survivable though, just problematic if left undealt with.

 

Zoanthropes in spores. I didn't play against these personally, but dropping in without a mishap (they have drop pods now so can't mishap at all) means 3 Zoanthropes are putting 3 S10 lance weapons on something. I watched these guys drop in and pop a Land Raider by looking at it. Tie up in cc asap. They're T4, but 3+ invunerable now, so don't bank on your firepower sorting them out unless you have a ton.

 

Things that aren't so bad:

 

Everything else. Carnifexs are now stpidly expensive, so you won't see many. Gaunts lost fleet, hormagaunts are pretty useless in cc and will at best tie you up for a turn. They'll still die horribly to rapid firing bolters. So will genestealers. Shooting warriors still don't have a low AP weapon, and if you get a charge on them with the good old 2x melta and fist CSM unit after firing those meltas and pistols, you'll probably wipe them out. Basically, it's not so different, you just need to rethink target priority from the last 'dex. This mainly involves blowing the hell out of Tyrants/ LW+BS Warriors and just rapid firing/charging everything else.

 

Hope this was helpful to anyone expecting to take on new Nids soon, any other Chaos player's experiences would be awesome to hear =]

[The 13th Goat]

Got Nids on Thursday, thanks for the tips!

[Ashe Darke]

The WS/BS 1 thing is a psychic shooting attack at range 12. If you sent in 2 Winged Princes you should be OK as long as you planned the assault well i.e. you make sure they're 12.01-18 from you at the end of their turn. So you charge, they haven't used it and they can't use it in combat as it's a shooting attack although I can imagine a couple of wounds being taken. This also keeps you out of the range of the Shadows of the Warp. Trygons should be dispatched this way as well. I'm not saying it's easy but this seems to be the ideal.

 

The re-gen thing you described is an upgrade. They don't all come with that, just so everyone is clear.

 

Hive Guard seem to be nasty for board control, especially if you take 9 as my mate intends to. I'd avoid them and try and lure them out of cover. They'll probably end up on objectives so I imagine last minute rushes towards them for contesting might take place.

 

Nids seem to just require careful planning as to what units are where as far as I can tell so far. There are things you want to charge and things you don't want to charge so it might be tricky. The things you don't want to charge you really need shooting. Hive Tyrants are one of these.

[minigun762]

Are Hive Guards T4 or T5? If they're T4, I wonder about hitting them with Termicide and hoping for the insta-kill.

[Cale]

I think they're T:6, actually, Minigun.

[minigun762]

I think they're T:6, actually, Minigun.

 

Well poop the bed! <_<

 

I guess you can use C-Plasma then.

[Cale]

Yeah, but it takes about five combi-plasma termies to drop a pair of Hive Guard. That's not a spectacular return...

 

Course, the Hive Guard die and those termies are free to run around chopping stuff up once it's done.

[Seahawk]

Abaddon, I've found from the previous codex and this one, is the best monster to take on their own, if need be. Just tonight he carved up a tyrant and 3 guard single handedly, with crappy rolls. Then the flyrant, broodlord, and 19 infiltrating genestealers got rid of him.

[RedDeath]

The WS/BS 1 thing is a psychic shooting attack at range 12. If you sent in 2 Winged Princes you should be OK as long as you planned the assault well i.e. you make sure they're 12.01-18 from you at the end of their turn. So you charge, they haven't used it and they can't use it in combat as it's a shooting attack although I can imagine a couple of wounds being taken. This also keeps you out of the range of the Shadows of the Warp. Trygons should be dispatched this way as well. I'm not saying it's easy but this seems to be the ideal.

 

Ideally, yeah, this would be the perfect way to take them down. Unfortunately, it'd require keeping your Princes out of the way half the game and hoping you get the charge off. If you can pull it off, fantastic. I sent a Prince after a pair of Zoanthropes that were wandering up the board getting too close to my tanks, and after consolidation he got charged. Ah well, live and learn.

 

Hive Guard seem to be nasty for board control, especially if you take 9 as my mate intends to. I'd avoid them and try and lure them out of cover. They'll probably end up on objectives so I imagine last minute rushes towards them for contesting might take place.

 

If I remember right, T6, 3+ save, 2 wounds, so they're not too bad if you can get a squad with some specials and a fist over to them. My opponent was using them as a slow albeit irritating flanking force while I was tied up with his MCs, wouldn't fancy trying to get them while they're dug in.

 

Nids seem to just require careful planning as to what units are where as far as I can tell so far. There are things you want to charge and things you don't want to charge so it might be tricky. The things you don't want to charge you really need shooting. Hive Tyrants are one of these.

 

Pretty much. Be interesting to see how the games go when Nid players find their tourney style lists.

[minigun762]

For my money, I think Hive Guard are the biggest problem for Chaos because 90% of Chaos lists are Rhino lists and 2 BS4 S8 shots will stun 0.89 Rhinos. This puts them up there with Vendettas for transport killing.

 

I don't know the point cost on them, but if its under 100 points each then I'd say they're better then Oblits.

[Ashe Darke]

Well it's 450pts for the full amount you're allowed, without giving too much away.

[minigun762]

Well it's 450pts for the full amount you're allowed.

 

Yuck... So for 2/3 of the price of an Oblit, you have a better transport killer and argubly more durable unit who can also fire out of LOS?

 

:)

[The Black Watch]

As someone who preordered the wonderful new Tyranid codex I think they are less than 100 pts each though I've forgotten the exact figure. Most of the elites are less than 100. Don't think anyone has mentioned that their S8 24" Assault 2 weapons DO NOT require line of sight either. So expect them to just camp behind something big. Ouch.

 

Some more info / weaknesses for you all to exploit:

 

Only 1 gun in the codex has AP2 and its only available to the Carnifex. Also, There are no AP3 weapons at all. Its all 4 and 5.

Don't forget pretty much every Nid has BS3.

I wouldnt call Hormagaunts useless as they have higher initiative and attacks that say a tactical marine. You can also upgrade to have furious charge and/or poisoned (4+) weapons. Also, they are FAST!

There are some AWESOME special characters. The Doom of Malan'tai will make everyone cry. Expect everyone to have one.

Without Number is no more.

[Luigiman59]

From reading the new codex, one thing i think all Chaos players need to know about is the new Nid Venomthorpe that gives every unit within 6 inches a 5+ cover save, defensive grenades, and if you assault that unit, you take a dangerous terrain test.

 

One of those can give Monstrous Creatures cover saves, and make Guants much more survivable.

 

HOWEVER, they are only T4, with a 5+ save, and a couple wounds, so they're easy to take out, but don't ignore them.

[Ashe Darke]

The Doom of Malan'tai will die to a failed save from a lascannon or a melta. A failed 3+ invun and it's toast. Once it builds momentum it might be nasty but you just need to kill it early on. It's attack is the same strength as the number of wounds (4 starting) it has and it gains wounds by killing stuff. This attack also takes D3 wounds off it so cover saves will keep it in check. If it can't kill more than the D3 roll then it starts dying so it's a risky unit if you ask me. It's range 24 so it's not like it can sit at the back and do it. It's gonna have to get involved.

 

Also there's more than just a Carnifex with low AP shots. The Zoanthrope and The Doom of Malan'tai has AP1 attacks.

[The Black Watch]

The Doom of Malan'tai will die to a failed save from a lascannon or a melta. A failed 3+ invun and it's toast. Once it builds momentum it might be nasty but you just need to kill it early on. It's attack is the same strength as the number of wounds (4 starting) it has and it gains wounds by killing stuff. This attack also takes D3 wounds off it so cover saves will keep it in check. If it can't kill more than the D3 roll then it starts dying so it's a risky unit if you ask me. It's range 24 so it's not like it can sit at the back and do it. It's gonna have to get involved.

You're also forgetting the Leech rule. It kills stuff just by existing. And yeah, you can instant-death it, but are you that lucky? 3+ Invulnerable save is good. As soon as it gets in CC (where it is no slouch) you can't even shoot it anymore. If the Nid player knows what he's doing, the Doom becomes unbelievably scary. Oh, and don't forget it can have a drop pod!

 

EDIT: Yeah but they are psychic powers. You're right but I was just talking about the shooting. ;)

[Ashe Darke]

It's risky, a gimmick (in my opinion), I wouldn't take one. Think of how many S8+ more shots most armies can bring to table, particularly marine ones. It should be dead in a turn or two and you can deny it of it's strength increase. The leech thing is range 6, and a sensible person will have it dead before it gets that close.

 

Yes it's a large blast but it can scatter like all other large blast weapons, and a sensible player will have his units in tanks or in cover so getting those wounds won't be easy.

 

It's cheap, just less than 100pts but I personally don't think it's worth it.

 

And fair enough about that, sorry. They have to take psychic tests now for all who don't know. I wanna see 9 Zoanthropes against an Eldar army with Eldrad.

[The Black Watch]

It's risky, a gimmick (in my opinion), I wouldn't take one. Think of how many S8+ more shots most armies can bring to table, particularly marine ones. It should be dead in a turn or two and you can deny it of it's strength increase.

 

Yes it's a large blast but it can scatter like all other large blast weapons, and a sensible player will have his units in tanks or in cover so getting those wounds won't be easy.

 

It's cheap, just less than 100pts but I personally don't think it's worth it.

 

And fair enough about that, sorry. They have to take psychic tests now for all who don't know. I wanna see 9 Zoanthropes against an Eldar army with Eldrad.

It's nice that someone isn't orgasmic about it. On some forums, people are shouting that its broken and has 'ruined 40k'. But they're idiots. ;)

 

I'll still have one mainly because its cool. At the very least, it'll tie up some enemy shooting for a while. At best, it'll be unstoppable. I'm sure testing will show.

 

It's interesting that the best Nid unit for popping LR's is the only one with an invulnerable save. I think we'll see some deep-striking Zoanthrope's lancing.

[Cale]

While Hive Guard are certainly better generic transport poppers than Oblits, they're far less versatile. They don't have plasma cannons for shooting terminators, or lascannons for shooting at stuff beyond 24" or flamers for shooting at infantry or meltas for shooting at land raiders.

 

They're certainly good, and the fact that they're elites helps a lot, but saying that they're just better than obliterators is a bit of a stretch.

 

I do think you'll see a bunch of them, though, as they and Zoanthropes are really the only good ranged anti-tank in the army. I figure you'll see zoanthropes pretty frequently, too, though I suspect that Hive Guard are going to prove to be better, in general, thanks to the amount of anti-psycker in the game right now.

[Ashe Darke]

Hehehe well I don't think I'm the only one. Yeah I do think it's cool and worth it for a laugh. Competitively I'd have to say no, but that's me.

 

Thropes shouldn't be too much hassle. Either they set up normally and their short range will see them die before they get close to you. Or they deep strike in so you have time to carefully position your tanks or pop smoke to grant you cover. Then once they're down you tie them up/kill them in assault as they're not that great at combat.

 

Depending on what else they have and how they're running their army I'd probably still rush my raiders as if I can get my PMs to where they need to go then losing my Raiders isn't too much a problem. This is very much depending on what else they have though as there are some units I really wouldn't want to rush towards. I can see nids being an army you let them come to you then spring your trap.

[minigun762]

While Hive Guard are certainly better generic transport poppers than Oblits, they're far less versatile. They don't have plasma cannons for shooting terminators, or lascannons for shooting at stuff beyond 24" or flamers for shooting at infantry or meltas for shooting at land raiders.

They're certainly good, and the fact that they're elites helps a lot, but saying that they're just better than obliterators is a bit of a stretch.

 

I'd debate if they're really less flexible.

While they might suffer against things with 2+ saves, they still have S8 and 2 shots. In essence they're better Autocannons which are already good multi-purpose weapons. The shorter range is a minor issue considering they can move and shoot and fire without LOS.

 

Point cost is the real killer. From the looks of it, its 3 HG to 2 Oblits. Against armor thats 6 S8 vs 2 S9. Against infantry its 6 S8 vs 2 S7 blasts. Considering the amount of cover on the board, I think they have the advantage against anything not in Terminator armor.

 

I'm not running to the hills screaming yet, but I am starting to pack my bags.

[The Black Watch]

Thropes shouldn't be too much hassle. Either they set up normally and their short range will see them die before they get close to you. Or they deep strike in so you have time to carefully position your tanks or pop smoke to grant you cover. Then once they're down you tie them up/kill them in assault as they're not that great at combat.

 

I can see nids being an army you let them come to you then spring your trap.

I love your laid-back confidence.

 

"What's that you say? A S10 AP1 Lance attack on the turn you deep strike? Meh!"

 

:P

[Ashe Darke]

There's always a risk. And if they pop the Raider the guys are still safe. It's not ideal but they're the ones who win the game. And seen as I'd probably be waiting for them to come to me it's not a huuuge issue. I'm trying out Oblits instead of Raiders at the moment anyway so I'm not fussed by lance.

 

Plus the game is half the battle, you gotta play the opponents mind as well and confidence is always a good thing :P

[Cale]

While Hive Guard are certainly better generic transport poppers than Oblits, they're far less versatile. They don't have plasma cannons for shooting terminators, or lascannons for shooting at stuff beyond 24" or flamers for shooting at infantry or meltas for shooting at land raiders.

They're certainly good, and the fact that they're elites helps a lot, but saying that they're just better than obliterators is a bit of a stretch.

 

I'd debate if they're really less flexible.

While they might suffer against things with 2+ saves, they still have S8 and 2 shots. In essence they're better Autocannons which are already good multi-purpose weapons. The shorter range is a minor issue considering they can move and shoot and fire without LOS.

 

Point cost is the real killer. From the looks of it, its 3 HG to 2 Oblits. Against armor thats 6 S8 vs 2 S9. Against infantry its 6 S8 vs 2 S7 blasts. Considering the amount of cover on the board, I think they have the advantage against anything not in Terminator armor.

 

I'm not running to the hills screaming yet, but I am starting to pack my bags.

 

Those are fair points. I still think it's pretty clear that the Obliterators win over the hive guard in a variety of situations such as AV 14 and Terminators, even given the difference in cost. But, you're certainly right that they're still reasonably versatile.

[minigun762]

I still think it's pretty clear that the Obliterators win over the hive guard in a variety of situations such as AV 14 and Terminators, even given the difference in cost. But, you're certainly right that they're still reasonably versatile.

 

I wonder if Tyranids will struggle with 2+ saves in general. Considering that Bio-Plasma is only 12" range, they're going to have to rely on weight of fire to get through Terminators. Thats not quite as hard as it sounds with the multi-shot weaponry and poisoned attacks they have but its a possible weakness to exploit.