First encounters with the new 'Nids

[Cale]

Eh, not really. The strength of nids is in their close combat, and their good close combat options largely obviate armor anyway. Tyrants and Trygons ignore armor entirely, and Genestealers rend. Warriors either rend or have power weapons.

 

Terminators aren't the answer, even though nids do have trouble shooting them to death.

 

TH/SS terminators, though, are going to be pretty good. S8 is pretty important against nids these days, and the 3+ invulnerable does actually make them pretty tough.

 

Honestly, you should only look at nid shooting as a way to pry guys out of their cozy transports so that you can charge them, or to deal with fast ranged stuff that you can't get to with combat, though flyrants are pretty fast and should generally be considered your primary anti-tank units.

 

Shooting wasn't really the way to go in the last nid codex and, all pretenses aside, it's basically still that way.

[minigun762]

About what I expected. Codex Marines will have more options because they bring significant ranged firepower and S8 melee attacks (Tacticals) or S8 attacks and a significant Inv save (TH/SS) to the field.

 

Since we can't insta-kill any of the big things with Termicide, they're nearly as useful as when you're fighting a mech list.

 

I'm really hoping that my current plan of lots of CSMs will still hold up but I think it has a good chance really.

[Cale]

Yeah, that's basically my approach. Lots of marines. Powerfists. Daemon Prince and a couple Vindicators. If that doesn't work, I really doubt anything will.

 

On the bright side, I did win my first game against nids. I thought I was gonna lose for the first half--those trygons and tyrants are murder machines--but CSMs are pretty tough and good at a lot of things.

 

The thing to remember for us, I think is that combat resolution is the bane of Tyranids. I didn't kill that Tyrant by meleeing him to death the honest way--I did it by getting him into a big multiple melee with nearly thirty marines and three squads of termagaunts. The Tyrant cut through my guys, but my guys cut through the gaunts, and losing combat by thirteen or so is pretty hard on a Tyrant.

[Ashe Darke]

Well those big things are well expensive.

 

A Hive Tyrant with wings is 230pts and foot slogging one might not be in your face enough but the wings are expensive. I think the thing to look out for is people chucking lots of big things at you and leaving you overwhelmed. Some of those things are going to get to you. These lists will probably suffer from a lack of troops though.

 

A well coordinated Nid attack will leave you having to do things carefully I think and if they can disrupt that then things won't look as good for you. In my mind it's very much 'this is the best thing for dealing with that unit, I don't think the others can do it' and if they're in the wrong place or locked in combat then things aren't going to go too well.

 

EDIT: Nice work Cale. I've lost Princes that way, it would be nice to turn it around.

[Cale]

Yeah, the wings are expensive, but I really do think they're worth it. Wings are a massively important upgrade for melee monsters, and even at their cost, they're basically a given.

 

We should just be grateful our codex was written before they realized that Wings should be priced through the roof. Ours are a bargain.

[Ashe Darke]

Flying Warriors cost 5pts more than normal ones but they get a 4+ save instead of a 5+. I don't know if it's worth it.

 

DemetriiTZ has posted some thoughts based on his experience with the new nids here.

[minigun762]

For awhile Chaos could rely on simply overpowering the opponents in HtH combat. Even against Orks its seemd like we would stand a good chance of winning.

 

But with the bugs, shooting appears to be the main answer to them and in that respect, Chaos suffers because our reliable long range shooting is very limited.

[IronWinds]

On the obliterator note.. it sounds like Hive guard are nasty, but it also sounds like in a shooting fight vs each other obliterators would win.... whole 2+sv. And oblits have a huge advantage over Hive guard, the closer the range the nastier their weapons get. Against armor we have twin linked meltas, against light infantry twin linked flamers, and against MEQs we have twin linked plasma.

 

So against tanks at close range its 2 TL str 8 melta vs 6 str 8, and at close range its 4TL S7 ap2 vs 6 S8. That twin linked makes a big difference, and melta makes an even bigger difference. Sure we have to be within 12", but that is where chaos shines.

 

From what I've heard it doesn't sound to over the top. What chaos lacks in long range shooting we make up for in close range shooting and close combat. More nids will get to our lines than with Imperials or Tau, but a whole lot more will die right before the charge, and CSMs will hold their own better in hth. I personally don't plan on changing anything in my army list.

[Ashe Darke]

I think it's gonna be a while before we see any of the nasty builds as this requiring a lot of new models etc. If you're doing WYSIWYG games then I doubt you'll see as many Lashwhip + Bonesword tyants as you'd expect because no one ever took them before.

 

And Hive Guard are like £12 so for someone to get a nasty amount will cost a lot. People will mainly be doing lists based on what they have for the moment. In a few months time once people have bought stuff, then it will be different.

[minigun762]

On the obliterator note.. it sounds like Hive guard are nasty, but it also sounds like in a shooting fight vs each other obliterators would win.... whole 2+sv. And oblits have a huge advantage over Hive guard, the closer the range the nastier their weapons get. Against armor we have twin linked meltas, against light infantry twin linked flamers, and against MEQs we have twin linked plasma.

 

You're correct that 3 HG vs 2 Oblits fighting each other, the Oblits would come out on top most likely. And the Oblits have superior firepower within 12" but the issue is that neither of these units is that likely to be shelling the other, instead HG will be destroying our Rhinos and then either targetting our Princes or our Armor whereas the Oblits will be trying to wound their multiple TMCs. In this respect, I still feel that the HG are better at their job then Oblits are at theirs.

 

I personally don't plan on changing anything in my army list.

I've dropped my Terminators and taken a Vindicator and some Lesser Daemons but for the most part, its the same.

I'm really hoping that LD live up to my expectations as a tarpit unit and a counter to Tyrants or Trygons.

 

What chaos lacks in long range shooting we make up for in close range shooting and close combat. More nids will get to our lines than with Imperials or Tau, but a whole lot more will die right before the charge, and CSMs will hold their own better in hth

Thats the gamble we're in right now. Will Chaos hold up enough in close combat to make up for their lack of long range shooting? I'm hoping so.

[Ashe Darke]

I wouldn't send my Rhinos anywhere near the Hive Guard until I had to, most likely later on in the game. If I can win by not going near them then I will just stay away.

 

This is where I see a last minute contesting with a Raider to be really beneficial.

 

EDIT. Against big bugs. Might Tzeentch with all their Force weapons have an OK chance against them? Typhus might be good for friendlies. 4's to wound and it's a force weapon and he has Nurgle's Rot that auto passes any tests.

[Legatus]

In what way are loyalists better at long range than Chaos Marines again?

[minigun762]

In what way are loyalists better at long range than Chaos Marines again?

 

1) Sane Dreads with 2x heavy weapons

2) Land Speeder Typhoon with 2 Missile Launchers

3) Tac Terminators with Stormbolters/CML

4) Cheaper Predators/Vindicators

5) Whirlwinds/TFC for pure anti-horde

6) Useful Land Raiders

7) Tactical squads have Heavy weapons (we can do this too but they're not free and we use 2x specials instead)

8) Razorbacks as extra cheap firepower

9) MM Attack Bikes or Speeders for anti-armor

[Cale]

Yeah, what Minigun said. There's really no doubt that Loyalists get better long ranged shots. Also, their tac squads will have heavy weapons. This is definitely a double edged sword, since the fact that they have heavy weapons means that they're worse than our chaos squads, but it does mean that they're going to be somewhat better at long ranged firepower.

[IronWinds]

I decided to look over this material on a Nid forum. They actually think the Zoanthropes powers are to strong. So I mathhammered it... and not so much.

 

Str10 lance is great. But still sub par to meltas or an obliterator's TL melta. It is actually sub par to a Broadside's TL railgun which has a much higher range. And the thrope basically has to DS to use it, it only has an 18" inch range and the thrope will die easily to small arms fire since he is only T4 w/ a 3+sv so he can't wander across the board and hope to live. So IMO the thrope will end up being like termicide with greater range but less hitting power.

 

It was a 1/6.7 chance I think to kill a LR. Meltas are 1/5, Oblit TL meltas are a 1/3.6, and a TL railgun is 1/5.8.

[Ashe Darke]

Yeah, I didn't think they would be an issue. They cost more than Hive Guard as well so taking lots of them will be costly.

 

You're right about small arms fire, each one is like a 2 wound marine. Not something to be concerned about.

[Legatus]

Those are certainly things that loyalists have. But they would only make them "better at long range" if Chaos did not have something compareable in each of those cases. Like when four out of five of their Troops choices can aptly be described as mainly "anti horde", the availability of Whirlwinds to thin out Gaunt hordes or even Stealer squads seems less of an important advantage. And there are several ways for Chaos to get a number of Missile Launchers or Laser Cannons without having to put them on Dreads, Speeders or Terminators.

Apart from those options where Chaos Marines have equivalent units to chose from, they have Noise Marines, 30 points Terminators, Obliterators and Defiler mounted Battlecannons over the loyalists.

The main reason why you see fewer Chaos gunlines is that compared to loyalists, a lot of Chaos units have improved HtH capabilities, so Chaos players tend to focus on that more often.

[Cale]

The main reason why you see fewer Chaos gunlines is that compared to loyalists, a lot of Chaos units have improved HtH capabilities, so Chaos players tend to focus on that more often.

 

Sure, I agree. Still, that's a reason, and it has rendered most Chaos Marine armies worse at long range shooting than most loyalist armies. It's not a bad thing for us, on the whole--our squads are basically better than tactical squads, in general--but it does come with that one particular downside.

 

Also, we don't have any fast attack options that are good at long range and we don't have any elite options that are good at long range. Marines have both, so I think both of those count as good reasons, too.

[minigun762]

I have a feeling that the semi-standard Elite loadout will probably be

2x2 Hive Guards (maybe 2x3 in bigger games)

1x2 Zoas (maybe 1x3 in bigger games)

 

This is assuming that Zoas broods can take pods (I know single ones can)

 

With these units, you basically have equivalent firepower to Oblits and Termicide. I really don't think that anti-Land Raider is that big of a concern in an army where you will likely have 5+ MCs all S6+.

 

Legatus: I'm not saying Chaos sucks or that Codex Marines can do everything better, but if you compare both armies ability to deal damage at 36"+, you'll notice that Codex Marines have more options and usually cheaper or better options. Defilers and Oblits are the only thing that Chaos has and while both are good, they also compete for the same FOC slots. To make up for it, Chaos is better in the short range game.

[IronWinds]

Ok I was wronge on the warp lance, its ap1, so it actually has a .222 chance to kill a LR (1/4.5 chance). So it is nastier than a single melta, but not quite as nasty as an obliterators twin linked melta.

[Ashe Darke]

Yes a brood can go in a mycetic pod mini.

 

Nids are pushing me towards Rhinos and Oblits and away from Raiders even more so now. Yes I like my Raiders but there are flaws and I think nids help expose that even more. I just need to see how this list plays out against everything else.

[minigun762]

Nids are pushing me towards Rhinos and Oblits and away from Raiders even more so now. Yes I like my Raiders but there are flaws and I think nids help expose that even more. I just need to see how this list plays out against everything else.

 

I haven't been a big fan of Chaos LR since I found out that the Codex ones are so much better. :)

 

I think Rhino spamming is a safer way to approach things. As for Oblits, I prefer my Defilers and with all the T4 W2/3 units out there, I like that I can insta-kill them.

 

Part of me is very tempted to just go straight Berzerker horde and attempt to overwhelm them with lots and lots of attacks.

[IronWinds]

Read something scary... someone in a test game with the new codex took 5 of the things that spawn termaguants. In a couple turns it went from 40 termaguants to over 200 and they had to use coins as count as termaguants. That seems like a nasty tactic... especially if they are camping objectives :) .

 

I hope I'm missing something.

[Ashe Darke]

From what I've heard from others Hormagaunts will tear through Berserkers. For 8 Berserkers they can have 21 Hormagaunts who will either strike at the same time with 2 attacks each (re-rolling 1's to hit) wounding on 4s (you charge them) or striking before you with 3 attacks each (re-rolling 1's) wounding on 4s (them charging you) and for an extra 2 points per model they can get a re-roll to wound when they charge you as they'll be S4 vs T4 with a poison attack. They might need to be charged just after flaming me thinks.

 

Iron Winds - They roll 3d6 and that's the number of gaunts it makes. On the roll of a double it makes that number and stops. Also killing the Tervigon will hurt the gaunts as all units within a certain range suffer 3d6 S3 hits. They're also HQs so I don't know how they took 5.

[IronWinds]

Thanks I feel better. I think it was an apoc game... in which case we could see nids field nothing but those things and have hundreds of guants everywhere. Would be a nasty tactic if you didn't kill them fast enough.