First encounters with the new 'Nids

[IronWinds]

Terminators.

 

Combi meltas will do well against warriors because it instakills.

Combi plasma will do well against Tyrants because you can knock off so many wounds.

 

Something occured to me. Vs the Zoan is it better to use the combi... or just unload the bolter?

 

3 terminators. 6 bolter shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, .6666 unsaved wounds.

3 combi melta shots, 2 hits, 1.66666 wounds, .555555 unsaved wounds.... note these cause insta-death.

6 combi plasma shots, 4 hits, 3.3333 wounds, 1.11111 unsaved wounds.

 

Since it has 2 wounds and melta would instakill I would say double the .5555, so it is 1.11111 vs 1.111. You are equally well off using meltas or plasma except plasma can hurt yourself. Of course if the thing is nearby I wouldn't waste termicide on it, you statistically need 18 bolter shots to kill it. So a squad of marines w/ or w/o special weapons could bring one down in a single turn of fire. If there are multiples you are better off charging them so they can't shoot.

 

Vs tyrant.

3 melta. 2 hits, 1.6666 wounds.

6 plasma. 4 hits, 2.6666 wounds.

 

Figured as much, just had to check.

[Ashe Darke]

When I said bolters I meant from marines when the Thropes get close enough. Sending termicide in just to fire bolters is crazy.

[minigun762]

Something occured to me. Vs the Zoan is it better to use the combi... or just unload the bolter?

 

Yeah I was thinking that at the same time actually. Even considering going with basic TL Bolter Terminators. It ends up being fairly close, I think TL Bolters = 0.89 wounds.

 

I figure most people's Terminators are decked out in C-Melta and I'm not sure that everyone uses magnets so if all you have is Termicide, going for the insta-kills is your best bet it looks like.

 

I will say that the new Tyranids has made me reconsider the Flamercide squad. I'm not entirely sure its worth it but its a great way to get rid of a Genestealer brood or any kind of Gaunt/Gargoyle squad.

[The Black Watch]

I've read something interesting about the Nid weapons that is somewhat of a glaring oversight. All the weapons like Lashwhips, Boneswords, Scything Talons and Rending Claws are actually deemed special weapons and so they have to choose what special effect they want for the round of combat, they don't stack and there is no rule stating they can regardless.

Are you sure about this? I don't have the codex on me right now but I don't remember it referring to them as special weapons. The HT gets Lashwhip, Bonesword an Scything Talons as standard and it would be a bit daft if he could only effectively use one at a time.

 

 

It's was something I read here. They're not normal CCW weapons, they have special rules making them special weapons.

I've just had a look in the Codex and the BRB and there's nothing that specifies they are 'special' close combat weapons. They are listed under the 'close combat weapons' section so I would just assume ( :ermm: ) they are 'normal' close combat weapons. The rules for normal close combat weapons in the BRB say nothing about using more than one at a time just that using 2 gives you an attacks bonus.

 

I also can't find anything that says weapons with special rules ARE special weapons in the BRB. In the codex it says Tyranids do not wield close combat weapons as such. It also says they never receive bonuses for fighting with more than one close combat weapon.

 

I think, sensibly, this means Tyranid players get all the benefits from all the weapons they can have (except extra attacks).

[Ashe Darke]

It's the wording on pg 33 that is what needs sorting. I'm sure it will be fixed eventually. It would be funny if that was the case though! If some Nid player only wants to use one at a time that's fine with me.

 

My setting a trap plan worked by the way. Twin-linked meltas worked a treat. The fact that stealers no longer have access to frag grenade equivalents is pretty god damn awesome. Just be sure to hide your power fists at the back of the unit.

[IronWinds]

When I said bolters I meant from marines when the Thropes get close enough. Sending termicide in just to fire bolters is crazy.

 

I wasn't replying to that, I was replying to miniguns question about what were the best uses for termicide against nids. Idea of bolters just popped into my head because with a 3+ inv I wanted to see if bolters having more shots would make them better than meltas.

 

 

On the weapons bit I don't have my BBB nearby but I know there is something about not mixing weapon abilities. Otherwise I can give someone a PF and lightning claw and have a str8 re-rolling to wound weapon.... basically a slower version of what Abby has. There is a rule somwhere about having to pick a weapon when you have 2.

[Cale]

Note the definitions of Normal and Special close combat weapons, from page 42 of the AOBR rulebook.

 

 

Normal Close Combat Weapons

Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them. (some more about pistlols).

 

Special Close Combat Weapons

These include more complex and powerful weapons that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them. The most widely used are listed below:

 

 

These make it pretty clear what is a special close combat weapon and what is not. Basically, if it confers some bonus or effect (other than the +1 attack for having two close combat weapons) to its user, it's a special close combat weapon. This definitely includes all of the Tyranid close combat weapons.

 

 

Also from page 42:

 

Two different special weapons

When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

 

 

Which, again, makes it pretty clear that the wielder can only use one Tyranid close combat weapon at a time.

 

That said, it's possible that the rules for tyranid close combat weapons are worded in such a way as to obviate or circumvent this restriction, and I can't really know until I've looked at those specific wordings more carefully.

[Ashe Darke]

Well on pg 33 it says this.

 

Tyranids do not wield close combat weapons as such, but rather slash their opponents with their own teeth, claws and talons. As a result, Tyranids never receive bonus attacks for using more than one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creatures profile.

 

Now not gaining bonus attacks looks an awful lot like how special weapons interact. The only difference is that a Nid with 2 Scything Talons doesn't get +1A.

 

I brought this up with Frosty as he's pretty good with rules and he said that they phrase 'Tyranids do not wield close combat weapons as such' is key. He said that this is saying that they're not CCW weapons and so can't get bonuses and can stack effects. But in the same paragraph it calls them CCW under a heading that says Tyranid Close Combat Weapons and the wargear entries are also under the title Close Combat Weapons so I don't know how good an argument that is.

 

The Nid people who spotted this seem to be under the impression that this is currently how it works.

[minigun762]

We might want to put this over in the rule discussion area so we don't sideline the rest of the topic.

 

Its an interesting point to be sure, but I think we want to keep this about Tyranids and Chaos in a more general sense.

[Cale]

Not to ignore Minigun's advice entirely, but after talking it over with a friend, I think the close combat weapon thing does work out for the 'Nids.

 

This is because, while a model can only use one special close combat weapon at once, tyranids get benefits just from having their close combat weapons. For instance, "Any model that is in base contact with a Tyranid with one or more Lash Whips counts their initiative value as 1 until the end of the Assault phase." Not, "models using one or more Lash Whips." Just having them is sufficient.

 

So, it was a neat thought, but no go, I'm afraid, thanks to a miraculously well-worded set of rules in the codex itself.

[Ashe Darke]

So what about choosing between Scything Talons and a Bonesword even though I imagine it would be STs pretty much all the time. Is it a case of the model has them and so gains that bonus?

 

On topic - First game told me this - hug cover as a unit of stealers who charges you will strike after you so hopefully you'll butcher a fair few of them before hand. Hive Tyrants aren't that bad, just annoying. Obliterators are further proven to be a good unit to take.

[minigun762]

Looking at what we have access to, I'm thinking the Defiler's Battlecannon will be quite helpful. Able to insta-kill anything T4 or less. It also denies FnP saves for those super Gaunts or Genestealers and its wounding the big guys on 2+ with no save normally. It just seems like a very flexible weapon choice and while I wouldn't want to assault their MCs with a Defiler, It will do a number against Warriors, Hive Guard, Zoas and the little stuff.

[Seahawk]

The defiler's BC is incredibly useful. In the same game I mentioned previously, one shot splatted two biovores in cover. Of course, infiltrating genestealers got to it after that, but severely depeleting the amount of S4 large blasts coming at me was nice.

 

It doesn't matter for any of the weapons. ALL of them are written like the lash whip, in that so long as the Tyranid model has the upgrade, it benefits from its effects. So a Tyrant with lash whip, bonsword, and scything talons (stock equipment) gains the benefits of all 3 when in close combat.

[The Black Watch]

Cale I see your point but I still think that is somewhere between a rule and an assumption. It doesn't specifically state: Anything that grants the wielder a bonus (besides extra attacks) IS a special weapon. It just says 'Some special weapons include...' which is rather vague. I guess it can be argued both ways quite well but RAI surely grants the benefits. Also, Codex always overules BRB - though I'm not sure how much that helps in this situation as its pretty ambiguous too! FAQ please! :D

 

Back on topic, I would suggest targeting venomthropes as they aren't hard to kill early and infer lots of bonuses on nearby troops. Also, I wonder if carnifexes are going to be a problem now given they've been nerfed...

 

A nice cheap unit of lesser daemons could probably slow the advance of hormagaunts as well.

[Ashe Darke]

Venomthropes are an elite choice. Between Hive Guard and Zoanthropes I doubt you'll see many, if any of these.

[The Black Watch]

You are right, there are a lot of tempting elite choices (there 8 in total and 6 of them are quality imo). Doom of Malan'tai and Deathleaper are also Elites so its going to be tough to choose just 3. I think that the Venomthropes' abilities make it a must have for protecting the rest of your army. Playtesting will show whether it survives that long. Put it this way, its the first model from the elites section that I plan on buying.

[Cale]

I think, Black Watch, that the codex is plenty sufficient in this instance, and that the Nids do benefit from all of their close combat weapons simultaneously. This is because, as mentioned above, they gain the benefits just by having those weapons--not by using them. The rules I mentioned for special close combat weapons never even come into play.

[Seahawk]

A nice cheap unit of lesser daemons could probably slow the advance of hormagaunts as well.

If the daemons charge then yes. If the hormagaunts charge, it'll just make them faster by 6+D6" (charge and consolidate). Rerolling 1's to hit, and rerolling wounds will make sure the daemons get wiped fast. If I can wipe marine squads fast with 'em (and have, in all games thus far), daemons are no impediment.

 

I've also used a pair of venomthropes in a game against mech Tau and they survived all game. Presenting many other meaner targets (zoanthropes, mawloc, deathleaper, etc) means target priorities need to be learned and adjusted. They allowed my gaunts to get close enough (to die, as it turned out), but he wasted much fire on the gaunts only for me to get a 5+ save enough times to matter. The zenomthropes will also likely have a 4+ cover in return (anything in front, which'll be a lot) with which they can go to ground for a 3+ cover, not to mention "leading from the back." They won't be the easiest to remove. I can see them getting in every list, or close enough.

 

I know that deathleaper will cause some problems as a last turn objective contester. As long as it's on the table somewhere the turn before, it can simply disappear and reappear anywhere on the table, causing us to choose whether we really want that first turn of shooting to suffer a draw or loss in exchange. It drops our leadership and causes all sorts of problems. However, it's otherwise pretty much useless (can't even kill a Tau suit team...) beyond that goal.

[minigun762]

Are Hormogaunts really as scary as people are making them out to be? Is it that people are loading them up with all kinds of upgrades?

[Seahawk]

They pretty much aren't worth it unless you make them 10 points each with adrenal glands and toxin sacs, which is still cheaper and faster than a 14 point (or 17 with toxin sacs) genestealer. Using the "swamp" technique, the hormagaunts win out with numbers. My big thing is that the genestealers and gaunts have the same armor save now for most weapons, which is no armor save. They're not scary to the well-prepared, or terminators. They're like Bretonnian Knights: charge and rout (most often the case) or stagnate and crumble (bad dice or good saves).

 

They can also swamp MC's quite easily, what with going first or simo and poison (4+) attacks. Again, it's staying in cover that will blunt their attack and get you the win.

[minigun762]

On a related note, it seems the big worry over on Dakka Dakka is the "Super Termagaunts".

I don't have the codex so I can't be sure but the overall idea is something like this:

 

30 Termagaunts, FnP, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Preferred Enemy

 

From the sounds of it, its making entire TH/SS Terminator squads disappear on the charge due to the rerolling hits/wounds

[Seahawk]

Pff. That'd be a second line assault, as it needs the Tyrant and Tervigon next to it to give PE and FNP, and none of the three units have fleet. Supported by venomthropes so it gets two saves, that'd be roughly 650 points minimum to deliver it to an assault. That produces only 60 attacks max from the termagants, though it'd be after 30 S4 shots. That's assuming it even makes it across the table, much less in one piece. Any of our plates will make them disappear without FNP, and if there aren't venomthropes or they're not in cover, ostensibly to get there faster, swathes vanish quick, leaving you to deal with maybe 7-8, if that? Then the two MC's that'll be there too...unless they're already shot down by obliterators. The termagants will be I5 when they hit, so it'll take characters and units with marks of Slaanesh to go first. Or if you're just in cover (see the trend?) you'll go first and kill plenty.

 

Of course, as a second line wave they'd be behind the first, getting cover saves from them and forcing you to shoot the first line so you don't get assaulted by them, leaving little time to blast the termagants.

 

In that case, just shoot the MC's down and charge the big brood with a defiler or dreadnought. Easily wrap them up for the entire game, while a dread would be safe quite long if many termagants still exist; no room for a big base to get into btb. Termagants/hormagaunts can't do squat to AV12 as you smash 1-2 a turn. Win!

 

Na, that unit is nothing to worry about once you think it through.

[LordGates]

I was wondering, do you think maybe a couple of squads of EC filled with sonic weaponry might be something to counter the hordes of gaunts with?

[minigun762]

I was wondering, do you think maybe a couple of squads of EC filled with sonic weaponry might be something to counter the hordes of gaunts with?

 

In cover it would be a really good choice I think. You can pump out 3x the amount of firepower at 13-24" and once they get close you have the option of shoot/charge or shoot/hit first when they charge

 

This would also be a great squad for killing Zoas, as it only takes 3 static SB NM to kill one on average.

 

Gaunts with FnP will be annoying. Worse so if they have a Venomthrope.

Your kill ratio would go from roughly 4.4/10 shots to 1.48/10 shots.

[RedDeath]

Got a couple more games in today with my local Nid player. One win and one draw to me, though he's getting the hang of this dex more. Few more bits and pieces:

 

Hormagaunts are fast as ever. Their fleet move is now 3D6 and pick the highest. They can't charge 12" anymore, but they're likely to get high fleet rolls. This isn't so bad, but I had a Tyrant backing them up casting paroxism I think it is on my guys. WS1 and BS1 til the next Nid turn, which means the hormagaunts hit on 3s, with you striking back on 5. They're not lethal, but 13 of them charged and tied up 10 Chaos marines for a few turns largely cause I couldn't hit them. They actually did what gaunts were always supposed to do and tarpitted my guys until the Tyrant himself walked in and wiped them out. Brutal.

 

Tervigons are surprisingly nasty. The guy used one in both games tonight, and both games spawned an extra unit of gaunts that made life that little bit harder. When your opponent is getting 7+ troops units in an objectives game, you're in trouble. And with all those nasty buffs (particularly FNP) and fearless to gaunts they are another excellent tarpit unit. Not to mention you have to knock six wounds off the thing. Saying that, when you kill them and each nearby gaunt unit takes 3D6 wounds, that's pretty sweet. Still, these things need killing before gaunts get into combat, and with 20+ of them running they are going to make it to combat at some point.

 

As for those deepstriking Zoanthropes, they'll damage whatever they drop in next to, but after that if you have any amount of infantry by you can easily tie up or kill them, so they're pretty much just termicide but useless in combat. WS3, S4 (IIRC) and one attack.

 

So far what's been working best for me is my Defiler. I give mine a battle cannon, autocannon and a havoc launcher, and it'll knock off 9-10 gaunts in a turn with a bit of luck, but that leaves another ten. These can be dealth with, but odds are your opponent takes the back ten off and gets cover or hides next turn. Still, 10 gaunts is much less of a tarpit than 20, so my advice is get the templates out. All the monstrous creatures are lacking invunerables, so they're not actually that big a threat once they wander into rapid fire plasma range, and lascannons make them cry. If you can play keep away for long enough, and can knock out the Tervigons and the bulk of the gaunts by turn 3ish, you're actually looking pretty hot.

 

One thing I do hate though is regenerate. If you've knocked 5/6 wounds off a Trygon and then your opponent gets two back you're going to have to sacrifice extra firepower just to re do wounds you've already caused. Frustrating, but still pretty cool.