First encounters with the new 'Nids

[Ashe Darke]

Hormagaunts are fast as ever. Their fleet move is now 3D6 and pick the highest. They can't charge 12" anymore, but they're likely to get high fleet rolls. This isn't so bad, but I had a Tyrant backing them up casting paroxism I think it is on my guys. WS1 and BS1 til the next Nid turn, which means the hormagaunts hit on 3s, with you striking back on 5. They're not lethal, but 13 of them charged and tied up 10 Chaos marines for a few turns largely cause I couldn't hit them. They actually did what gaunts were always supposed to do and tarpitted my guys until the Tyrant himself walked in and wiped them out. Brutal.

Was the fact that in the initial assault you didn't do much the reason why it took a few turns? As you should only ever be WS/BS 1 for one game turn. He can't do it while you're locked in combat.

 

Tervigons are surprisingly nasty. The guy used one in both games tonight, and both games spawned an extra unit of gaunts that made life that little bit harder. When your opponent is getting 7+ troops units in an objectives game, you're in trouble. And with all those nasty buffs (particularly FNP) and fearless to gaunts they are another excellent tarpit unit. Not to mention you have to knock six wounds off the thing. Saying that, when you kill them and each nearby gaunt unit takes 3D6 wounds, that's pretty sweet. Still, these things need killing before gaunts get into combat, and with 20+ of them running they are going to make it to combat at some point.

Did he not do what everyone else I know did and not roll a double on the first roll? If so he's seemingly lucky compared to what I've seen, or at least not as unlucky as the people I know.

[RedDeath]

Was the fact that in the initial assault you didn't do much the reason why it took a few turns? As you should only ever be WS/BS 1 for one game turn. He can't do it while you're locked in combat.

 

He assaulted me. I kept my marines dancing out of Tyrant range thinking they'd bounce off, but paroxism is in the shooting phase, so his Tyrant was just in 12". I got pretty unlucky on armour saves to be fair, but they're I5 so the more that are left alive in the initial round of combat, the more are striking first next turn. I'll be giving Tyrants a wider birth in future.

 

Did he not do what everyone else I know did and not roll a double on the first roll? If so he's seemingly lucky compared to what I've seen, or at least not as unlucky as the people I know.

 

He got a double first roll in the first game, but got something like 13 gaunts out of it. Second game he got a big unit without a double first turn, then rolled triple 2 the second turn. It seems to fail pretty quick, I think once Tyranid players stop getting over excited about it and actually wait for their moment to spawn late in objective missions rather than burning it out first turn it's going to be more of a problem.

[Ashe Darke]

I played against one today and he just sat at the back pooping them out. Once he stopped (2nd turn) he got more involved. The guy said he'd probably stick it more forwards next time, poop some out, send them back to his objective and then move forwards.

 

Hive Guard were nasty, but then I had some awful luck with my saves. 2 2+ saves on Oblits? Double 1! I let them get too many shots off before I decided to get my Princes involved so I didn't have too many Oblits left by turn 4. He had 9 and was quite aggressive with them.

 

He took spore mines which was funny as I just deployed my Rhinos next to them and they all blew up. Complete waste of points. As were the rippers. I think he just took these for a laugh. He's gonna take them out to take a 2nd Mawloc. Turn 5 contesting with it seems to be a nasty tactic, just burrow on turn 4 and re-appear turn 5 on the objective. It didn't quite happen as the guy scattered miles but it would have been a real pain in the ass.

[RedDeath]

I played against one today and he just sat at the back pooping them out. Once he stopped (2nd turn) he got more involved. The guy said he'd probably stick it more forwards next time, poop some out, send them back to his objective and then move forwards.

 

Yeah, that's what the guy I played did first game. Deployed the Tervigon with 20 gaunts and started charging forwards, then dropped gaunts to scuttle back to his objective. It's a nasty tactic that only failed because I managed to get my Rhinos passed him and rapid fire them late in the game.

 

Hive Guard were nasty, but then I had some awful luck with my saves. 2 2+ saves on Oblits? Double 1! I let them get too many shots off before I decided to get my Princes involved so I didn't have too many Oblits left by turn 4. He had 9 and was quite aggressive with them.

 

Yeah, see this is the problem with them. They mess with your target priority, because you're trying to work out if they're still going to be over 24" away and useless next turn. They're also intimidating because you're not going to want to go sending your rhinos at them to get popped and then charged by a Trygon. At the moment I find just ignoring them entirely for as long as possible works, then hoping they're all that's left that's a big threat by that point. On the subject of bad luck though, six gaunts tied up my defiler for three turns of combat because I could not roll to hit or wound to save my life.

 

I haven't played against spore mines or rippers, but since virtually every Chaos player is mech these days I can't see them being an issue, just an annoyance. Nids have a lot of new nasty toys, but I'm not finding them particularly troublesome at the moment. Again, I think once people get over the shiny new stuff and start thinking synergy and careful planning they could end up being pretty deadly.

[Atheist]

In the light of this new codex , I believe that AC's should find a way to return to our lists , if only for their range and many shots ( which may give them an advantage against High T uber-nids )

 

Obvious choices being Defilers ( even though they are probably more useful with their BC's and do have RAC - 12" less range ) , AC havocs , Dakka preds .

 

Would you support the idea of larger-than-termicide terminator troops ? Either heavy weapon choice ( HF , RAC ) may be particularly useful against the nids .

 

And lastly ... ( "the horses are restless milord , as if a storm is about to break out , but no clouds gather on the horizon ... We should probably tread carefully and seek shelter for the night ") , would you now find it posssible to reconsider about heavy weapons on 10 man CSM squads ?

 

*edit*P.S. : AP 3 Krak Missiles never before sounded that good of a choice .*/endeedit*

[minigun762]

In the light of this new codex , I believe that AC's should find a way to return to our lists , if only for their range and many shots ( which may give them an advantage against High T uber-nids )

 

Obvious choices being Defilers ( even though they are probably more useful with their BC's and do have RAC - 12" less range ) , AC havocs , Dakka preds .

I also agree that Autocannons are worth looking into. I run 2 Defilers with Reapers as backup and while I haven't played Nids yet, I think they'll be good counters to alot of their units.

 

Would you support the idea of larger-than-termicide terminator troops ? Either heavy weapon choice ( HF , RAC ) may be particularly useful against the nids .

Its something worth pursuing. I'd look into it after you bulk up your CSMs though. Depending on how many you currently run, adding another Rhino squad could be a smart plan.

 

would you now find it posssible to reconsider about heavy weapons on 10 man CSM squads ?

 

*edit*P.S. : AP 3 Krak Missiles never before sounded that good of a choice .*/endeedit*

I could 1-2 ML/PG or AC/PG squads being kinda useful for holding your backfield objective but in the end I'd think instead about trying to fit a Havoc squad or Predator into the same role.

[RedDeath]

Would you support the idea of larger-than-termicide terminator troops ? Either heavy weapon choice ( HF , RAC ) may be particularly useful against the nids .

 

Absolutely. In my standard 1500 list I run:

 

Terminators - 195

5 Terminators, 4x combi-plasma, reaper

 

It's fantastic because if you can DS within 12" of pretty much anything you'll kill it; which is anything from an LR Demolisher's rear to MCs. Or a massive unit of genestealers. Fantastic unit that hasn't failed me yet, and is continuing to make me proud against Nids.

[Atheist]

I've even had some luck with the standard termicide ( plus chainfist) against the nids due to some lucky inv saves , and previous removal of close by synapse creature ( I am talking about a game with the old codex ) .

 

Anyway the termies are always a solid choice , I guess more so if they have the bodybags to endure a charge after they shoot something when they deep strike .

[minigun762]

I've been looking at Possessed again for the new Tyrnaids.

Discounting any of their abilities (since we can't rely on one in particular) what I see with thier base stats is:

1) Wounding little guys on 2's and big guys on 5's is nice.

2) 5++ save my not be great but its something against an MC or a Bonesword.

3) Fearless means no stupid leadership checks or -1 LD auras bothering you. Plus you fight to the last guy.

 

For their abilities, Rending/Power Weapons are obviously useful against the big guys as is Furious Charge if you can get the charge off. FnP helps in their tarpit role and will counter some of the reroll to wound poisoned abilities. Scout and Fleet let them get into combat quicker and since they're non-scoring, you can sacrifice a a squad to hold up that Tyrant for a few turns.

[khurdur]

what about the new mawloc and its deepstriking s6 ap2 large blast?

[Cale]

The Mawloc is pretty unimpressive, as is its deepstriking s6 ap2 large blast. The blast is inaccurate, and you can't actually aim it at anything. The Mawloc itself is a lot like a Trygon, but worse--and for only 30 points less. Don't worry about Mawlocs, worry about Trygons.

[Hellios]

Thanks I feel better. I think it was an apoc game... in which case we could see nids field nothing but those things and have hundreds of guants everywhere. Would be a nasty tactic if you didn't kill them fast enough.

 

Not helpful for chaos in a normal game but could help in apoc... can anyone tell me if Witch Hunters still bring pain to nids with the I wound on a 2+ and ignore invulnerable save attacks?... What these are my Khorne Witch hunters... they hate psychic cowards ^_^)

[RedDeath]

Got another game in yesterday, thought I'd try my other army, Dark Eldar, and had pretty much the same result. If you just focus fire on the big things and throw templates at the little things, Nids are actually pretty easy to beat. Once you've got your gunline you're pretty much done, you just have to choose one big target and one small target per turn and fire your entire army at them.

 

The more I play against this codex, the less worried I am about it. My Nid playing friend is now 1 - 1 - 6 counting all his games, and he and I were pretty evenly matched under the old rules. With the MCs now costing more and being just as easy to kill, it's more of a blow whenever you take something out. And taking out MCs really isn't that hard if you focus fire.

[khurdur]

The Mawloc is pretty unimpressive, as is its deepstriking s6 ap2 large blast. The blast is inaccurate, and you can't actually aim it at anything. The Mawloc itself is a lot like a Trygon, but worse--and for only 30 points less. Don't worry about Mawlocs, worry about Trygons.

yes but if that template hits it will slaughter just about any unit....how is it aimed?

[Cale]

So, you Deepstrike the Mawloc. If, once it has scattered, it would end up in the same position as another model, you pick it up and put the 5" blast template down in its place (instead of rolling for a Mishap like you normally would). Everything under the template gets a S6 Ap2 hit. Everything that's still alive gets pushed out from under the template by the shortest path. Then the Mawloc gets put back down where the template was.

 

So, it's basically a Barrage weapon, but with no Ballistics Skill to reduce its scatter distance, and you can't place the Mawloc on top of an enemy unit initially. So, you have to put it nearby and hope it scatters onto what you were hoping to hit.

 

Also, if it ends up within an inch of enemy models but not on top of them, or if it scatters off the board, or if it scatters into impassable terrain, it suffers a normal mishap.

 

So, it's really very unlikely to hit a specific target.

 

Even if it were accurate, it's not like it's much worse than the other Large Blast templates we have to deal with. Basilisks, Demolisher cannons, Battlecannons. It ignores cover, but it's still not a game-ending gun, and it can only "fire" once every other turn, at best.

 

No, the Mawloc's funny deepstrike rule isn't really much of a weapon. Think of it more like a deepstrike-protection rule, like the Drop Pod's inertial guidance. It's there mainly to help the Mawloc avoid mishaps when deepstriking.

[minigun762]

Adding to Cale's point, remember that if you're in a Rhino all thats happening is you're taking a single Krak shot against your rear armor, thats not that scary at all.

[Night Lord Dred]

So, it's basically a Barrage weapon, but with no Ballistics Skill to reduce its scatter distance, and you can't place the Mawloc on top of an enemy unit initially.

 

Yes you can. Nothing stops you from doing this.

[Iron Lord]

Nothing in the deep striking rule (page 95) forbids starting the Deep Strike on a unit. While normally it would cause a mishap, it doesn't in the case of the Mawloc.

[Cale]

On page 14 there is a rule which specifically forbids you from placing models in impassable terrain. On page 13 there is a rule which states that each model treats all other models as impassable terrain.

 

Thus there is actually a rule which specifically forbids you from placing models on other models, and Deep Strike requires you to place the model before it scatters.

 

So, no. You can't really "aim" the Mawloc.

[Night Lord Dred]

Which is why there are mishap rules, except the mawloc has its own rule. You are not on the table when you are rolling the scatter.

 

It is 100% legal.

[Cale]

How can a model which must be placed on the table not be on the table?

 

The simple answer is that it cannot. The model is placed on the table. It is on the table. The assertion that the model is not on the table when rolling for scatter is directly contradicted by the rules, and therefor wrong.

[LorgarXVII17]

Im proud to say my Word Bearers performed quite well against the bugs. My terminators took care of my opponents trygon with relative ease, and my prince slashed up his warriors the 1rst turn. Overall I achieved a major victory over him, only losing 2 possessed and a rhino (and the 10 marines inside...carnifex' can still hurt us. Keep that in mind...)

[Iron Lord]

Specific overrides general. The specific rule for the Mawloc is- first place template, roll for scatter, hit models under template, move them to edge of template.

 

Then, and only then, is the Mawloc placed.

 

The White Dawrf battle report appears to handle it that way, anyway.

[Cale]

I'm not going to have this argument with you, here, Iron Lord. It's not the place. Suffice it to say, I've been over this issue in great detail, recently. Fortunately, that level of detail is not required. You have asserted that the rules say several things, and the rules actually say none of them. This can be ascertained quickly and easily by any rational, literate person with access to the rules in question. I really don't need to have this discussion with you at all.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I maintain that Tyranids are not going to require us to change our armies substantially. The stuff that was good before is good now, and it's good in the same ways. The trick against Tyranid armies will be using your transports carefully to make sure you get into combat with the right units at the right times--some nids can easily wreck anything we've got in close combat, and only engaging them in situations where they're overmatched will yield good results. Fortunately, our armies mechanize and theirs do not, so picking and choosing engagements is going to be the most decisive advantage we have.

 

But, it's not one that's going to take new units. Plague Marines, Berserkers, and Chaos Marines are all still good. Daemon Princes are still good. Lash is still good (though somewhat less so, since Tyranids have such heavy anti-psycher). Obliterators, Vindicators, and Defilers--all will perform well against 'nids.

[Night Lord Dred]

How can a model which must be placed on the table not be on the table?

 

The simple answer is that it cannot. The model is placed on the table. It is on the table. The assertion that the model is not on the table when rolling for scatter is directly contradicted by the rules, and therefor wrong.

 

It is not on the table and following regular rules because it is deepstriking. The deepstriking rules specifically say the model can be placed anywhere, which would include impassable terrain (other models). Then you would apply the DS mishap chart, but in this case the Mawloc has its own rules.

 

This has been debated back and forth on the internet and a space marine forum isnt the place for it. But the rules, interpretations and even GW articles all indicate he may deepstrike ontop of enemies.

 

Tactics should 100% be based around the mawloc's ability to land on you.