Firing Models and Cover

[BigDunc]

A gaming buddy recently pointed out a rule usage I've never seen anybody play with but makes complete sense.

 

It sounds like in the Cover rules of the BRB (which are too extensive to quote here at this time ), only "Firing Models" are used to determine cover. So, a Meltagunner versus a vehicle, if no other models are firing, would draw LOS from just the Meltagunner, not the entire squad (which could possibly give the Vehicle a cover save if more than half of the Tac Squad is behind a wood line). Makes logical sense, right?

 

But I was thinking about other uses: a 10 Man Tac squad firing bolters at Kroot. The Kroot are in the open but 5 firing Marines are behind a wood line while the remaining 5 firing Marines have clear LOS. The Kroot would get a cover save. But if you reduced the obscured firing Marines by 1, you would negate the Kroot cover save all together. That's a simple example. I hope I'm explaining it right.

 

The easiest applicability is to remember that if a single heavy or special weapon is firing, do not determine cover from the originating squad, just the firing model.

 

The interesting applicability comes with multiple special weapons or heavy weapons, which could include multiple plasma guns and bolters firing, where it might be non-beneficial to fire bolters, despite the increased firepower, if the target were to receive cover saves. But I'll leave that for now.

 

Is this not news to anyone? It's kind of a "duh" rules clarification, but with so many rules it just gets lost. Thoughts?

[Ashe Darke]

The kroot would only get cover saves from 5 shots if those 5 guys were more than 2 inches into the woods. If they were just on the edge and the kroot were out in the open then the kroot wouldn't get any cover saves.

 

You can only give a cover save like that if the MODEL not unit is firing through at least 2 inches of area terrain. So a guy with a melta gun on the edge with clear LoS wouldn't give a cover save to anyone regardless of where the rest of his squad is.

 

This is how I've understood it anyway.

 

And I don't think vehicles can get cover like that. Only from 50% obscured and things like smoke launchers and other special rules.

[Albion de Heaven]

sorry Ashe I think that bigdunc question was a bit different.

 

I will try to give my interpretation of is question:

 

Assumption: if more than half of the firing unit don't have a clear LOS on the target unit the target get a cover save

 

Statement: a 10 man squad with 5 man having and obstacle in LOS is firing to a target is giving target a cover save

 

Question: can i say that man 1 and man 2 are not firing having so to calculate "squad" only about 8 guys wich only 3 have an obstacle in their LOS and thus NOT giving cover save?

 

 

is this what you wanted to know bigdunc?

[Ashe Darke]

Ahhh yeah ok that makes more sense.

 

You do it on a model to model basis. So you look at each of the 5 guys and see if they can see more than 50% of the models in the unit fully. So say the trees only block a little bit of the LoS for each of the guys, not enough to give a save, except one who can only see 1/4 of the squad, then they get a cover save from that one guy. The guys outside the forest give no cover saves.

[BigDunc]

I think you get the idea Albion, but I'm not so much asking as I am getting this possibly useful rule clarification out there for people to use. And to get people's opinions. I for one have never played this way. I've always based a target's cover save on the whole shooting unit, not just the firing models.

 

I think what you're talking about, Ashe Darke, is not really 5E rules. IIRC, it used to be you took cover saves from each individual model. To make things quicker they've removed that and we now do things mostly on a whole unit basis. The important section to reference here is pg 22, Units Partially in Cover, 2nd and 3rd paragraph. Now in 4th paragraph it states: "If multiple models are shooting, you will need to work out how many models are in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models that are in range." So basically, all models of a target unit will either be in or out of cover based only on the firing models of a unit.

 

Here's a ghetto drawing to help. Blue are Marine, red are Kroot, green is an area woods. The horrible black line denotes LOS for half the Marines.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt90/bigduncm24/firingmodels.jpg

 

If all 10 Marines fired, the Kroot would receive a 4+ cover save because a majority of the Kroot are in cover in relation to at least half the Marine firing models. All Kroot would get a cover saves, even from the Marines with clear shots.

 

Now, if you chose not to fire Marine model 1, which you can do, none of the Kroot would get a cover save as at least half the Marine firing models have a clear LOS to a majority of the Kroot. That decision not to shoot one bolter could make a big difference in casualties against a 4+ cover save.

 

Make sense?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Pg 16, very last paragraph

 

"A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before checking range, as all the models in the unit fire at the same time"

 

You may choose to not fire with any models you dont want to fire, however you must mak this desicion before checking range (and thus before checking cover). you may not check everything and then decide to withhold fire from some guys to deny the save.

[Ashe Darke]

I had pictured it differently in my head bigdunc which is where the confusion comes from. I thought the 5 guys were in the forest and on the other side. There is a picture example of that exact thing in the rulebook.

 

They even admit it gets a bit complicated and sometimes a mutual agreement of a 5+ cover save should take place. You do it from the majority of the unit and if there is no majority then it's from the middle of the unit. But you can make a majority by doing what you're suggesting.

 

This is more complex that they wanted it to be you're right which is why they suggest the 5+ compromise.

[BigDunc]

Exactly. I'm saying to use the rules in your favor to negate their cover save. I understand the use of 5+ for unclear situations, but I don't think this is one of those situations.

 

Here's another application of the rules:

 

A unit has 2 Meltaguns. Meltagunner 1 has a clear LOS to a vehicle while Meltagunner 2 can see less than half of the same vehicle, giving cover. Since at least half of the Meltaguns have obscrued LOS the vehicle is considered behind cover from the entire squad, ie both Melta shots. So, using the rules, how do you negate the cover save? You take any another model with a clear LOS, even a bolt pistol, and choose to fire it. That shifts the majority to firing models that aren't obscured and would give the vehicle no cover saves.

[Ashe Darke]

Yeah I'm getting what your saying. It's sneaky, I like it ;)