Let's say you're fielding 20 Assault Marines.

[ShinyRhino]

For the sake of debate, let's say you're goign to field two ten-man squads of Assault Marines in a largely speed-oriented list. The core of your army is a Bike Captain, two mechanized 10-man tacticals in Rhinos, and a pair of 8-man bike squads with attack bikes.

 

How do you arm the assault squads? Currently, I have a 10-man squad built with a powerfist/bolt pistol on the Sergeant, one plasma pistol, and one flamer.

 

I like my sergeants to have a weapon capable of killing something large, like a tank, walker, or MC. I was thinking of arming the sereant of the second squad with a thunderhammer this time. Then another plasma pistol, and another flamer. This would allow me to field each squad with a plasma and a flamer, or mix it up and do a flamer squad and a plasma squad.

 

However, I feel like my bike squads do pretty well against massed infantry with the barrage of bolter fire I can lay down. Will I really need a dedicated flamer assault squad in a list like this?

 

I've always been of a mind that powerfists/t-hammers don't really synergize well with flamers. The fist/hammer is overkill against anything a flamer can reasonably take down. A power weapon feels like it might work better against the horde numbers a flamer likes to eat, plus it can get an extra attack both before combat, and in melee by virtue of the bolt pistol.

 

Of course, I'm also one of those guys who likes to be prepared, so I tend to slap a meltabomb on my power weapon sergeants. This would make the sergeant just barely less expensive than the fist version, while still allowing a minimal chance at breaking a tank. No improvement against an MC, though.

 

How would you kit out your pair of assault squad in this situation? I lean toward fist/flamer/flamer and then hammer/plasma/plasma, OR sword/flamer/flamer and then fist/plasma/plasma.

 

Ideas, opinions?

[JamesI]

Only 20 Assault marines? ;)

 

Ok, seriously.

 

A ten man assault marine squad should always have a powerfist (or thunderhammer). I think plasmas are over priced and would probably go with flamers (bikes/attack bikes and tac squads make good meltagun units, so give these guys flamers for diversity).

[Koremu]

Are we talking all-comers or specific situations here?

 

Both my Assault Squads (1 Infantry, 1 Jump) have 2 of each specialist modelled up (and 2 meltagunners for good measure). In general I've found the Plasma Pistols to be superior, but up until recently I have been almost exclusively fighting armies with small numbers of powerful troops, rather than Hordes.

 

Flamers are superior against Hordes, especially Hordes in cover, which is where your Boltguns fall down.

 

Plasma Pistols are lovely if you can get them behind vehicles with low rear armour. I've deep struck and killed off 3 Hellhounds before. My top kill was undoubtedly shooting Yriel when he messed up a Fleet Assault move.

 

Flamers are the superior choice when assaulting Fortifications - clearing out the occupying Infantry before they can stop your Meltabombs from doing their job.

 

 

 

Horses for courses. Can't help you with regards to all-comers though.

[ShinyRhino]

I always build all-comers lists, honestly. Specialization kills you inmy local area, as many players are able to field one of a variety of different armies on a given tournament day. You never know what you'll see.

[Brother Captain Josef]

I agree that plasma pistols are overpriced so flamers are the way forward. For synergy I like twin lightning claws on serge (+MB - anti AV opportunities) for some pretty spectacular anti infantry coverage. This doesn't mean you lose anything if you run with a thunderhammer or powerfist - you can still combat squad them and send serge off to deal with a tank while your two flamer combat squad give hiding infantry a hard time. If you choose not to comabt squad for whatever reason having a PF / TH is handy for instagib goodness.

[minigun762]

I think 2x Flamer/Fist is the best choice for all-comers.

 

PP are extra expensive and really only offer you something against Terminators, MCs and light armor. However the Power Fist does all those same things more reliably.

 

Against MEQs, 1 PP shot = 3 Flamer hits so in the end I think its a wash.

 

What Assault Marines can do better then most Flamer squads is get into the best position. Hop to a flank and fire 2 templates along the length of their line can really add up fast.

[Koremu]

I always build all-comers lists, honestly. Specialization kills you inmy local area, as many players are able to field one of a variety of different armies on a given tournament day. You never know what you'll see.

Tournaments aren't my thing. Scenarios are a much more interesting tactical challenge than the sterile tourney battle.

 

I suspect for all-comers that Flamers will serve you better.

[Giga]

I think 2x Flamer/Fist is the best choice for all-comers.

Quoted for truth.

 

Assault marines work best against hordes, and so flamers are THE weapon for them. This will especially be true once the new hormagaunts (I5 wounding on 4+ poisoned) are unleashed upon the tournament scene. You WILL need some proper pre-assault shooting to take those guys out. :lol:

[Warp Angel]

Given that assault marines are basically anti-infantry in the first place, the flamers are by far the best special weapon loadout. I regret modelling way too many plasma pistols on mine back in 4th edition. The choice of sergeant upgrade is based on preference, but a fist is almost always superior to a power sword, and only sometimes less than lightning claws, while sometimes more. Not sure a thunderhammer is worth it.

 

So flamers for the win, anything else is up to you.

[Voltaire]

Why put a powerfist in an anti-infantry squad? For the instant death capability? To scare away enemy monsters? You should be killing those things with your heavy weapons, not a single marine with a super-weapon.

 

It's better to simply by a power sword due to the extra 3 attacks that ignore armor. Or lightning claws if you're feeling rich. But I see no point in putting an anti-heavy CC weapon in an anti-light infantry squad.

 

 

Better to simply take two flamers and a powersword; cheap, yet effective.

[minigun762]

Why put a powerfist in an anti-infantry squad? But I see no point in putting an anti-heavy CC weapon in an anti-light infantry squad.

 

1) Power Fists are more killy then Power Weapons against MEQs (1.25 deads vs 1 dead on the charge)

2) You already have enough anti-horde with 3 attacks on the charge, Bolt Pistols and 2 Flamers.

3) Assault Marines are usually in a good position to smack a tank's and S8 is a threat to most any tank

4) Considering the number of MCs, Walkers and T4 multi-wound models in the game, being able to fight back effectively is a must.

[Voltaire]

Then your tactical squads, terminators and tanks should deal with them not your anti-infantry unit.

 

Throwing a fullman assault squad against a monstrous creature that only one of them can hurt is a counter-productive idea.

 

Better to avoid such situations entirely and have them focus on the infantry instead.

[minigun762]

Then your tactical squads, terminators and tanks should deal with them not your anti-infantry unit.

 

Throwing a fullman assault squad against a monstrous creature that only one of them can hurt is a counter-productive idea.

 

Better to avoid such situations entirely and have them focus on the infantry instead.

 

I can see your point and in the end I think its a playstyle thing.

If I played Loyalists, I'd want my Assault Marines to be counter-assaulters, focused on stopping dedicated assault units from reaching my guns or my scoring units. This means they need to be able to engage things like Genestealer broods or Daemon Princes and be able to hold their own.

[Giga]

Powerfists are mandatory in assault squads.

 

They allow them to effectively kill pretty much anything, and serve as a security in case the assault squad gets assaulted by a daemon prince, or a carnifex. What's more, non-eternal warrior HQs won't dare assault a squad with a powerfist, regardless of their invulnerable save.

[Koremu]

Re: 'nids. I think that Plasma Pistol/Fist will be a very useful combo for hunting down some of their more annoying "gank me now" creatures such as Venom- and Zoan- thropes, Hive Guard and Lictors

[Giga]

Re: 'nids. I think that Plasma Pistol/Fist will be a very useful combo for hunting down some of their more annoying "gank me now" creatures such as Venom- and Zoan- thropes, Hive Guard and Lictors

Plasma pistols aren't worth it in general. Too expensive for a single shot weapon that can also overheat.

 

Against the things you mentioned, the flamers are actually a lot more useful, because they ignore cover, and because placing a lot of saves on those units is better then just hitting them with a single ap2 shot. This is especially true of zoans, who now have a 3++ save as their only save, making them highly susceptible to flamers & rapid fire.

[JamesI]

Why put a powerfist in an anti-infantry squad? But I see no point in putting an anti-heavy CC weapon in an anti-light infantry squad.

 

1) Power Fists are more killy then Power Weapons against MEQs (1.25 deads vs 1 dead on the charge)

2) You already have enough anti-horde with 3 attacks on the charge, Bolt Pistols and 2 Flamers.

3) Assault Marines are usually in a good position to smack a tank's and S8 is a threat to most any tank

4) Considering the number of MCs, Walkers and T4 multi-wound models in the game, being able to fight back effectively is a must.

Another advantage of the fist is getting around wound allocation. If you get 2 power weapon hits at initiative 4, those can often be put on the same model. with 2 powerfist attacks, there are no other initiative 1 attacks to allow wound allocation manipulation.

[ShinyRhino]

Interesting points, everyone. I think I might go with Hammer/Flamer/Flamer for my next squad. I do indeed like the maneuverability of an assault squad for placing flamers in the best possible position for hitting the most targets. There are times when I lament that my current squad only has one. Plus, they're a tad cheaper.

I'm mostly going with the hammer because I just ordered the thunder hammer upgrade set from GW Direct, and because they look cool. It'll be worth the extra points to be able to auto-shake a vehicle on a hit, whereas there's just a HUGE sense of disappointment when I hit with a powerfist, penetrate and roll....a one. At least with the hammer, I'll always get at least that, if not more.

 

Flamers do lose one attack every turn since they trade away their chainsword for it, but one S4 attack per turn isn't much to cry over.

 

One final factor to consider would be the addition of a Chaplain to the unit. He makes the hammer and fist more viable, since you get rerolls to hit with them. He'd make a lightning claw even MORE fun. Hmm.

[minigun762]

Jump Pack Chaplains are still a steal. I'd say the main thing to remember about them is to keep them cheap. 115 points is all you need, so don't worry about trying to do all the fancy upgrades unless you have leftover points. The Chaplain exists primarily to give you that reroll and keep the squad in the fight thanks to Fearless.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

lest ye forget that ya can have an 2nd power fist for a mere +15 points, and while you lose an extra power weapon attack, you gain access to inflicting insta-death attacks for Ic/Hq's. Attached to a 10 man Assault Squad....good killy killy fun to be had. if you take 3 plasma guns and a power fist on the Sgt.. pricey but worth it. IMHO.

[ShinyRhino]

lest ye forget that ya can have an 2nd power fist for a mere +15 points, and while you lose an extra power weapon attack, you gain access to inflicting insta-death attacks for Ic/Hq's. Attached to a 10 man Assault Squad....good killy killy fun to be had. if you take 3 plasma guns and a power fist on the Sgt.. pricey but worth it. IMHO.

 

Huh?

Do you mean adding a Jump Chaplain with a powerfist and crozius to the Assault Squad? While it's a tempting option to take a fist on the Chaplain for the rerolls to hit with that S8, it adds 25% to his base cost, before you buy the jump pack. Far too expensive for my playstyle.

Three plasma pistols in an assault squad (one on the sergeant, two on goons) is a neat trick for popping small units like 5-man Tac Terminators, combat squads, or min/maxed 5-man Devastators. Would also work nicely against some of the new T6 Nid MCs. Just don't overheat!

[Voltaire]

Against terminators I can understand the need for plasma pistols and fists/hammers when dealing with them. As well as when engaging 'nid bio-tanks so as to assure wounds prior to, and during; assault.

However I do not relish the idea of spending 15/30pts on a unit only to have it wasted due to overheat. The seargent is also to valuable to be equipped with a plasma pistol and a power weapon/fist/thunder hammer because of the prementioned overheat.

 

Assault marines are suited for anti-infantry, whatever they are equipped with, and thus I would recommend focusing on assaulting infantry instead of tanks seeing as the squads majority is unable to damage vehicles, making them nothing more than a meatshield for a single model.

[minigun762]

focusing on assaulting infantry instead of tanks seeing as the squads majority is unable to damage vehicles, making them nothing more than a meatshield for a single model.

 

You could focus on making them infantry killers but its incorrect to say that they cant hurt vehicles.

Remember they all have Kraks, so unless you're assaulting a Land Raider or Monolith (which a Power Fist won't help on anyway) the meatshields can also do a good job of killing it.

 

Same logic for MCs that aren't T8, you still have some chance of hurting them. In fact rest of the squad will accout for 2/3 of a wound on the charge and 1/2 of a wound every round after that. That might not seem super powerful but over 2 turns thats 3-4 extra wounds you can stack on an MC.

[Golindar]

Adding melta bombs for 5 pts. is a cheap way to add flexibility. Melta bombs and a power weapon are cheaper than a fist and you get an extra attack.

 

I also think plasma pistols are overpriced. One shot weapons are unreliable. I'm sure you have all had that multi-melta lined up for a much needed hit on a nearby landraider and... aw crap i missed.

[Koremu]

Melta Bombs are really only effective vs Land Raiders and Fortifications IMO