Raptors and HQ.

[ntgcleaner]

Hey all, I have been kind of studying the Chaos Space marines, though, I do not play them (yet). I currently only play a friend who has a Tau army and very rarely go out to find another opponent (Which I would like to do more!). Anyways, I Wrote a list and have been told that raptors really aren't that great for assault. I would just like to know your opinions on these guys.

 

Here's my set up for these raptors and how I see them to be viable in CC.

 

1 HQ Chaos Lord with a pair of LClaws and MoK

5 Raptors w/ MoK and 1 Aspiring Champion with a pair of LClaws and MoK

 

Now, I want to get down to pure number of attacks, I don't want to crunch the numbers on how many of them would die if there were a counter attack and I would never charge them at a unit with higher initiative if I could help it.

 

Let's start off with the HQ:

Base of 3 Attacks

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 6 attacks

(Right so far?)

 

The Raptor Aspiring Champion:

Base of 2 attacks

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 5 attacks

(With me?)

 

Chaos Raptors:

Base of 1 attack

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons (is this right? does a pistol count as a CC weapon?)

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 5 attacks per unit = 25 attacks

 

Grand total of 36 attacks.

 

Now, are these numbers right? or am I just seeing things?

 

The way I see it, these would be amazing to take out some Fire warriors, Crisis Suits or broadsides (If we are strictly thinking Tau), plus they can still put a damper on some light vehicles. I also understand that Chaos Space Marines are great at assault as well, I like the fact that I can use these raptors to tie up some things in the back field while my 10 CSM get up close and personal in a rhino. I also like them because they ultimately do look badass on the table.

 

What do you all think?

[Brother Nihm]

Let's start off with the HQ:

Base of 3 Attacks

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 6 attacks

(Right so far?)

Yep.

 

The Raptor Aspiring Champion:

Base of 2 attacks

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 5 attacks

(With me?)

Yep.

 

Chaos Raptors:

Base of 1 attack

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons (is this right? does a pistol count as a CC weapon?)

+1 for MoK

Yep and it does. Rulebook P.29.

 

Now, are these numbers right? or am I just seeing things?

Looks right to me.

 

I also understand that Chaos Space Marines are great at assault as well, I like the fact that I can use these raptors to tie up some things in the back field while my 10 CSM get up close and personal in a rhino. I also like them because they ultimately do look badass on the table.

 

What do you all think?

CSM are actually better, e.g. cheaper and are scoring + they are semi protected while hitching a ride or alternatively running behind a Rhino (something you could do with your Raptors if the situation calls for it).

[minigun762]

Raptors are good for HQ escorts if you're using CSMs because otherwise, you have to break a 10 man squad into an 9 man squad and that costs you a special weapon.

 

If you want a Winged/Jump Pack HQ, I think 5-6 Raptors with IoCG and 2 specials is the way to go. Cheap body bags with some useful guns.

[renegadewarp]

I agree with Nihm but there are some other things you need to remember how ever. Raptors are more points which you are paying for the jump pack and not to forget the adaptability since when you move a unit while playing close to a player enough to be predicted to be assaulting soon or next turn often opponents will make them priority depending or not ont he confidence of the opponent's use of the unit about to be assaulted.

 

So here's the thing since you play against tau lets say 90% of the time you need to think about some stuff you are facing a shooty army(tau) now due to the small numbers they need only kill 2 raptors of that unit before your making a leadership not so good so remember if you choose IoK you need plenty of avoiding and moving through and around and behind cover now the nice thing about tau is basically once in CC your good to go for a win in that round of CC with the exception of a few units but for the example we'll say you are good.

 

Me personally playing Night Lords, raptors are a main stay of my army and a very threatening one at that controling the tides of the field through (real) intimidation to the opponent wondering whether to target something else or the unit of fast attack about to be on them so leave it to say its all personal choice my favorite fast attack being raptors might be someone elses different opinion but for having a mobile CC unit who can carry two special weopons and a frightfull CC punch with it can be something most will realize they wish they took.

 

Back to the subject just putting my two points in yes the numbers look to be all there just remember at times you wont always be assaulted(if playing most other armies) but i assumed you were talking tau but then you mentioned you were going to play other people, with tau you more or less assume your going to be doing the assaulting but if your playing others at times you Will be assaulted all part of the game my friend.

 

/end rant

 

-Renegadewarp XD

[the jeske]

the problem with this kind of unit build is not the number of attacks in can make [unless its 24 power weapon or rending attacks] , but how many of those raptors will actually see hth and what happens if the unit runs in to a counter unit /hq/MC/walker of another army.

 

the rule is if you take an HQ in a unit then the asp champion /sgt /wg/etc always gets a fist [not that a fist isnt the best weapon to give your squad leader anyway , HQ in unit or not]. hth units that are meq should be 8 minimum 7 strong ,5 man is too few . not even harlis were run at 5 man size squads.

[chillin]

What do you all think?

 

Same # of attacks as csm's but 50% more pts. You're more likely to get charge in with raptors but csm's can be protected in rino, then rino useful after it drops off troops. Kind of hard to make raptors a good assault unit actually. Or maybe it's just b/c we have better ones (csm's and brzrkrs).

[minigun762]

the rule is if you take an HQ in a unit then the asp champion /sgt /wg/etc always gets a fist [not that a fist isnt the best weapon to give your squad leader anyway , HQ in unit or not]. hth units that are meq should be 8 minimum 7 strong ,5 man is too few . not even harlis were run at 5 man size squads.

 

Is that still true if you're building an escort unit instead of an assault unit?

 

The difference being a matter of points and role. The assault unit is a threat by itself, the HQ is there to boost them up. An escort units exists to suck up wounds for the HQ and maybe offer some help from being swarmed.

 

5 Raptors/2 Meltaguns/IoCG = 130 points

vs

8 Raptors/2 Meltaguns/Power Fist Champ/IoCG = 230 points

[chillin]

An escort units exists to suck up wounds for the HQ and maybe offer some help from being swarmed.

 

At 20+ pts per, raptors are just too expensive to be there just to suck up wounds.

[ntgcleaner]

Thank you all for the responses!

 

I would primarily be using this type of unit when I NEED to. i.g. They will assault just before or just after the CSM launch their assault. I am completely convinced that I need 10 CSM in a rhino, so they will definitely be there too.

 

These seem like a good medium independent character killer/light unit killer/clean up crew after the pain of the firing stops!

 

Don't get me wrong, as stated before, I would still have my CSM's in the assault off of a rhino or even out of a LR

[Legatus]

Rhinos need extra armour, so for a squad of 10, the Rhino is exactly as expensive as the jump pack upgrades of the Raptors. For smaller squads the jump packs are being cheaper. If you run your Rhinos without extra armour, 5 Raptors are still cheaper than 5 CSM in Rhino, 7 Raptors are the same price as 7 CSM in Rhino, and 8+ Raptors star getting more expensive.

 

5 CSM + Rhino (extra armour): 125 points

 

5 Raptors: 100 points

 

That being said, if the unit is supposed to perform well in HtH, even after suffering a few casualties, it should be bigger than 5, closer to 10.

 

The advantage of Rhinos is that it protects the squad from small arms fire and can be used as an independent unit to block LOS or paths or contest mission objectives. The disadvantage of the Rhino is that while now the unit needs fewer turns to cover a larger distance, the unit will still only be able to assault over a distance of 12", while Raptors assault over 18". This also helps initiating a second assault after having finished the first one, where a Rhino squad would now have to move on foot. Raptors are also faster at covering large distances thanks to the ability to run. Rhinos can also be shot down, leaving the unit stranded, while Raptors will not lose their manouverability.

 

Finally, the option for Raptors to get two specials in a squad of 9 or less is also neat.

[Corpse.]

It is arguable for CSM rhinos to require extra armor. Here are the speed perks of CSM and Raptors.

 

Raptors:

Turn 1, 12"

Turn 2, 12" +6" assault

Total: 30" from deployment line, ignores terrain for the most part

(Perks, 20 models in a unit fora single icon bonus and the speed, great for escorting HQ's that are not a prince/GD)

 

CSM:

Turn 1, 12", turn rhino, disembark, Run 1" to 6" extra (if you do not want to fire)

Turn 2, 6" +6" assault

Total: 25" to 30" from deployment line, sits inside a rhino for a turn that can die and leave them walking, easier to be charged first but have ranged weapons

(Perks, second turn daemon assault with the 13"to18" first turn move, scoring)

 

Your choice. I personally prefer 20 raptors with an icon of nurgle to be as tough as bikes in melee with two attacks base, +1 for charging. And they often get the charge. Raptors are one of the very few units that can get a first turn charge using lash of submission power, along with any unit using a land raider (that costs 220 points), or bikes/scouting possessed, and any jumper HQ or chaos spawns.

 

Out of all those choices, the raptors are perhaps the more efficient first turn assaulters. They are not scoring, so you can pile them in without worrying about further tactics, leaving the rest of the army to do as you wish.

 

Edit:

Also on the points matter,

10 Raptors, Champ, 2 special weapons and icon = X points

10 CSM, Same Champ, Same special weapons and icon, AND transport(with no upgrades) = 15 points less then the raptors, but score, and can be left walking, however the rhino is an extra target/blocker for various good playstyles.

[Legatus]

Here are the speed perks of CSM and Raptors.

 

Raptors:

Turn 1, 12"

Turn 2, 12" +6" assault

Total: 30" from deployment line, ignores terrain for the most part

(Perks, 20 models in a unit fora single icon bonus and the speed, great for escorting HQ's that are not a prince/GD)

 

CSM:

Turn 1, 12", turn rhino, disembark, Run 1" to 6" extra (if you do not want to fire)

Turn 2, 6" +6" assault

Total: 25" to 30" from deployment line, sits inside a rhino for a turn that can die and leave them walking, easier to be charged first but have ranged weapons

(Perks, second turn daemon assault with the 13"to18" first turn move, scoring)

Raptors can run as well, you know...

[Brother Nihm]

Rhinos need extra armour

I find EA to be overpriced and from personal experience 2-3 Rhinos at 1K points work fine as mobile shield walls, so I'm curious, why do you think they need it?

[Legatus]

It removes a 1/6 chance that your Rhino under fire will just sit there next turn, which if it happens to your Berserkers at turn 1 or 2 can really hurt your battle plan. Of course it was more of a no brainer when it was 5 points (and unit were able to assault after disembarking from moving Rhinos). I myself have contemplated taking Rhinos without extra armour to save some points. But then again I really don't want a Rhino to be unable to move at turn 1 or 2.

[Jeffy.Gee]

A five man Havoc squad with four flamers in a Rhino works wonders at scouring Tau from the battlefield. It's cheaper than your HQ and Raptor squad as well.

 

JG

[Brother RedAxe]

As a player of both Tau and chaos. Running transports up, at least when I'm playing Tau, with little or no cover means alot of guys foot slooging accrosthe field even with good cover pathfinders and stealth teams properly placed will make short work of rhinos. Deep striking raptors close enough to be able to assult will bring under most Tau deployment strategies alot of fire power your way Broadsides, Hammerheads and Sky rays all come wit or have the option for a no line of sight needed heavy 4 str 5 ap 5 direct fire missle. Crisis suits can mount get no armor sv weapons, plasma rifle and missle pod, and have a 3+ sv, broadsides have a 2+ sv. The best way I have found of getting rid of Tau is las cannons, plasma and meltas their tohugness is only 4 in a suit. I play a very heavy termie list so most static Tau gun lines get eaten fairly fast. I know many people rarely play aginst Tau armies and just go by what they read or heard, but if your opponet knows his army it is hard to do much aginst them. The best strategy I have found for pulling tau off objectives is to out flank/operate behind enmey lines them and melta the suits. The guy i play aginst most runs Wolves. So use cover and hope he doesn't run alot of markerlights.

[Corpse.]

Raptors can run as well, you know...

 

Yes, forgot since I normally do this with transports.

[the jeske]

the rule is if you take an HQ in a unit then the asp champion /sgt /wg/etc always gets a fist [not that a fist isnt the best weapon to give your squad leader anyway , HQ in unit or not]. hth units that are meq should be 8 minimum 7 strong ,5 man is too few . not even harlis were run at 5 man size squads.

 

Is that still true if you're building an escort unit instead of an assault unit?

 

The difference being a matter of points and role. The assault unit is a threat by itself, the HQ is there to boost them up. An escort units exists to suck up wounds for the HQ and maybe offer some help from being swarmed.

 

5 Raptors/2 Meltaguns/IoCG = 130 points

vs

8 Raptors/2 Meltaguns/Power Fist Champ/IoCG = 230 points

you know that this is tricky question , because if you want to buy a 130-150 pts unit to babysit a 130-150pts HQ it is better to buy two winged DPs and dont need any units to baby sit them , get more kill power , no instant death and easier time hiding him.

[minigun762]

you know that this is tricky question , because if you want to buy a 130-150 pts unit to babysit a 130-150pts HQ it is better to buy two winged DPs and dont need any units to baby sit them , get more kill power , no instant death and easier time hiding him.

 

Very true Jeske, this is making the assumption that the player doesn't/can't use Daemon Princes.

In the end this is why I went with DPs, because they require no babysitting.

[aeroplane]

I run an eight-man Raptor squad with 2 Meltas, Lightning Claw Champion, MoK and and un-marked Winged Lord with Daemon weapon. I have learned a few things from this build -

 

Mobility is awesome. It can really bounce around the board and stay out of trouble.

 

Although the Daemon weapon is fun, there has never been a game where the lord didn't take a wound from it. A Lightning Claw Khornate Lord is much more consistent, and actually a better choice. The Khorne weapon always stays at home because it is just a way to play the lottery - great if it works, but it usually doesn't.

 

The unit is an amazing hammer, really slicing up whatever it hits, usually killing it.

 

I like the Raptor models, as well as the possessed wings, so you can make it a great looking unit. I'm going to play around with the new 'nid Gargoyle wings to make some Nurgloid Raptors, they should look awesome!

 

Drawbacks -

 

It's fragile. Hence the 8 guys. You need the bodies to soak wounds.

 

It's a huge fire magnet. It is an incredibly lethal squad to most everything on the board, and people want it dead as soon as possible.

 

The mathhammer guys will say it's not the most efficient use of points. I happen to agree. But it is very effective and awfully fun to use.

[ntgcleaner]

Rhinos can also be shot down, leaving the unit stranded, while Raptors will not lose their manouverability.

 

That is the main reason I don't like to rely on Rhino's I of course still field them, but I feel it's almost game over if one gets shot to shreds - and then on top of that, if the units inside get S3 hits, there's even more potential to die right off the bat. Utilizing cover is what you mainly have to do, but sometimes it's just not possible.

 

As I said (I think) I would still take the squad of 10 CSM with some heavy armor hitting specials. They would be perfect for things that are slow and purposeful or even units that would normally not want to be in close combat.

 

I Might consider upping the Raptors by 2 and giving them two specials so they can multipurpose as well. Yes, I know that makes them more expensive, but they will be able to armor hunt and will be more resilient to having to take morale checks.

[chillin]

Rhinos can also be shot down, leaving the unit stranded, while Raptors will not lose their manouverability.

 

Raptors also lose their manouverability when they are shot down...b/c their dead :P

[Night Lord Dred]

People can argue against Raptors all they want, but the fact is they are the same price as a CSM squad while providing a unique role to the army. Nothing else is guaranteed an 18" melta range or assault every single turn. They are not dependent on a single rhino which, when blown up, pretty much takes them out of the game. They can move up and down the opponent's table edge easily. They have their perks.

 

They can easily hide behind rhinos, meaning unless your opponent has ordinance, this simple strategy will have your raptors reaching your opponents line unharmed. Otherwise you can cover hop while running and possibly make it into assault turn 2.

 

As for escorting HQs, a jump pack lord makes a great secondary HQ. People are talking as if for 20 points you simply get meat shields, when in reality theyre still MEQs that probably wont be getting shot at all and hit hard when they reach combat.

[the jeske]

Otherwise you can cover hop while running and possibly make it into assault turn 2.

this works only when your opponent has not counter unit . If you go 12+d6" and at least try to get close to your target [and your opponent doesnt move , has no screen of troops etc] there is a big chance that after that move you will be charged by that player counter unit and if they run in to a counter unit with an HQ [or a MC] they have a big chance of losing . so they force you to take a baby siting lord.

 

The problems with raptors are .They die like normal csm , yes you can try to hide behind raptors[but then your getting slower or are further away then a csm in rhino would be ] and yes you can use terrain[but your opponent would have to be blind to not see it , runing or not they still dont move 24" . if they did they would be hard to counter] , but that doesnt change the fact that those are normal csm . with not more attacks , not more specials . What raptors are on the other hand is non scoring . This means you cant really cut pms or rhino csm squads to fit them in to an army . So what does get cut ? 2 oblits ? not enough points to get a proper sized squads . 2x2 oblits ? well then we have one unit of counterable csm with jumppakcs and loose all range support . We can ditch one unit of oblits and a termicid , but then we are left with just one unit of oblits [what royally screws us over when we play against eldar or IG] and hvy support should never be played as a single choice , at least not 2 model ones. So we go and buy havocks [more wounds , still range even if static and pray for a tall tower in our deployment] . So after the raptor changes our army looks like this

 

1 lord

3 troops [csm/pms]

raptors

havocks

 

fewer units , less range , easier to counter . what we get is unit of jump pack csm that can[if our opponent allowes it] charge turn 2 . Imo that wouldnt be so bad , if it werent for the fact that A the rest of our army is still not charging turn 2 . B there are scores of armies we will never ever want to get near off , at least not with just one squad.

[Night Lord Dred]

Funny, I fit 1 HQ, 2-3 Elites, 3 scoring, 3 heavies and raptors into 1850. I dont need to drop anything.

 

In order for you to get counter assaulted you would have to be the dumbest player in 40k. Seriously, moving 13-18 inches in any direction you want completely ignoring terrain, and you get counter attacked? I dont think so. Did that MC just magically pop out of nowhere and assault?

 

Your "list" is like 1100-1200 points max. Its also a poor generalization. There is absolutely nothing forcing you to take havocs (which are better than oblits but that's a different topic) or a lord instead of a prince.

 

Raptors are non scoring...right. However, that is hardly the only difference. They have many advantages over CSM. Theyre the knight chess piece of the chaos army, whereas CSM are the pawns (drive straight at the enemy). They can be tricky and threatening, causing your opponent to work around their massive threat range.