Raptors and HQ.

[the jeske]

Funny, I fit 1 HQ, 2-3 Elites, 3 scoring, 3 heavies and raptors into 1850. I dont need to drop anything.

welcome to europe where tournaments/pick up games are played at 1500 pts and sometimes at 1750 . If you want to talk how chaos works at 2k and 2500 then it more or less doesnt work at all .

 

 

In order for you to get counter assaulted you would have to be the dumbest player in 40k.

well I see it this way. I move to blow up a lemman/charge a unit of Long fangs etc if a counter unit is going to be anywhere then it is going to be near those unit giving a nice 18"[or more] cone of protection to the opponents army . IF I want to charge the unit that is my target I will have to move [even with raptors this is 2 turns] , what kind of a telegraphs my tactic [so unless the counter unit is 36+" away the counter charge is going to happen] . Yes I can go after other units , but this requiers my opponent to make a bad move or me having more then 2 treat units[as am making the assumption he can always counter one and tar pit another] , but we dont have points to do that . I can also try to charge the counter unit instead of the main target , but then we are down to rolls and special rules . As raptors are the same as csm that may or may not work and unlike sm we dont have a ATSKNF safty net.

 

 

 

There is absolutely nothing forcing you to take havocs (which are better than oblits but that's a different topic)

other then the fact that 2 oblits in one unit die too fast and arent a good enough meta against transports [not when they are alone . 2x2 oblits +termicid is ok anti tank a bit roll dependant but ok]

or a lord instead of a prince.

no lord in the raptor unit makes it easier to break them . making two unit combos to kill a single unit unless the unit costs tons of points or really kills your build is a bad tactics . throwing the whole army at one target only works if someone plays with a 700 pts uber unit.

 

Theyre the knight chess piece of the chaos army, whereas CSM are the pawns (drive straight at the enemy). They can be tricky and threatening, causing your opponent to work around their massive threat range.

?? ok I dont understand this part , why arent the raptors moving straight at their targets?? with a big chance of random game lenght going on flank or deep striking when most armies are mecha and can move away seems very odd. for it to work the table would have to be 4X4.

 

how is their treat range massive ? raptor range is 12"+6" charge , csm is 12"rhino move 12"double tap range . and even then the whole treat part works only if you play against an army that chaos problem with one raptor unit and there arent many of those[tau and necron and sob are the only ones , while sob only if they play slogging] .

[chillin]

People can argue against Raptors all they want,

They are not dependent on a single rhino which, when blown up, pretty much takes them out of the game.

 

- I'm not argueing against raptors at all, they can be good, esp if your army is somewhat built around their use (as is very fluffy for NL's).

The OP was all excited about the # of attacks he could make raptors have, I was just pointing out that no matter how many attacks you can make raptors have, reg csm have the exact same # of attacks when equiped the same way, and raptors are 50% more expensive.

- Your last two posts seems to give impression that rinos are easy to take out (as I'm sure I might have given the impression that I think raptors are a bad unit, which I don't). If you use terrain, smk and other rinos well, rinos can be quite difficult to take out, add to that that w/ xtra armor a rino ignors 1/2 the results on the damage table (shaken, stunned, weop destroyed), rinos are quite reliable at getting troops where they need to go.

- Saying that blowing up a rino takes the troops out of the game is just incorrect. Even if rino is blow up on turn 1 (I have played tau and eldar/DE many times, and unless you are playing on a big empty board, this is unlikely), the troops inside should be to middle of board on turn 2, turn 3 at latest, where they can fight units coming at you or claim objectives.

- Not saying that they don't have their perks, their ability to jump over terrain can be quite useful. I was just letting the OP know that 36 attacks from a squad with a lord, a champ, etc, is nothing special, a squad of csm's would have the same. Also I wouldn't give a unit containing a lord IoK, b/c if the unit breaks, the lord goes with them. You said raptors make a good escort for 2nd HQ and I don't doubt that but I wouldn't stick my only HQ is squad of raptors. I think most chaos players consider raptors more fragile then csm's in rinos, that doesn't mean that they can't be useful when used well.

[Legatus]

I was just pointing out that no matter how many attacks you can make raptors have, reg csm have the exact same # of attacks when equiped the same way, and raptors are 50% more expensive.

Well, 33%, and only if the CSM do not come with a Rhino.

 

Edit: Actually, a unit as is described in the OP (6 models, one of them a champion, with Icon of Khorne and a power weapon*) would only be 20% more expensive when taken as Raptors than a similarly equipped CSM squad without a Rhino, as any additional gear would decrease the relative point difference.

 

(*the unit proposed in the OP was supposed to have a TLLC champion, which CSM cannot get. I used a power weapon so the two squads would have similar equipment.)

 

I.e. if you only take 6 models, then the Raptor unit will be 120 pts compared to 90 pts, so 33% more. But when you add an Icon of Khorne it now is 150 vs 120 pts, which is only 25% more.

 

Taking full 10 men and equipping the unit with a Champion with Powerfist, an Icon of Khorne and two Meltaguns, the Raptor unit would be merely 21% more expensive than the CSM unit, and that without the CSM having a Rhino.

[IronWinds]

How do raptors have a bigger threat range? Assault= 12+6. Shooting=12+12. Shooting it with bolt pistols so not that threatening unless its 2 meltas vs a tank.

 

CSMs in rhino shooting= 12+2+12. 26" You deploy 2" from the rhino ;) . Shooting is with bolters. Little bit more scary.

 

 

And a huge difference in number of attacks. Its 50% more expensive.. no its only 20%.. I'm not doing the cost math... but what I can tell you is that if the raptors are more expensive the CSMs will have that many more wounds, and that many more attacks. More durable and hit harder...

 

Rhinos do not need extra armor. If it is stunned turn 1 you loose 1 turn of movement. If its stunned turn 2 you just get out and run or if your enemy has moved forward some get in some double tap hits.

 

And its not the end of the world even if the rhino dies.

Rhion dies turn 1. Rhino would of moved 12, then 12, 2" deploy, then you shoot 12. 38"

Instead you move 2"+6+d6(average of 9)+9and on your third turn you are moving 6" double tapping or firing pistols and assaulting if they are closer. You just loose a turn of movement. 38" shooting but takes 3 turns. Loosing a turn of movement is bad, but its not the end of the world.

 

Rhino destroyed turn 2 or in turn 1 but you went first. Move 12", deploy 2, 6 on foot, double tap= 32. You don't even loose a turn, your just less effective offensively the next turn(meltas won't be within 6, flamers won't get hits). If the enemy is closer and most enemies are not going to sit back in a corner you might still be within assault/flamer/melta range on turn 2... and at least double tap range. A few enemies will hide in a corner... but most won't. If the enemy is further away... Move 12" in rhino, 2" deploy, 9 on foot, move and double tap/assault next turn 41/35. You loose a turn, but you are very likely to be in assault range.

 

Also keep in mind... whatever destroyed that rhino would have killed a raptor at least. Normally a rhino will take a couple anti tank hits... multiple dead raptors. Rhino also keeps ordinance from destroying half the squad in a single hit. Rhion has smoke... so moving cover for a turn. Rhino can be a LOS shield afterwards or tank shock. I am actually surprised raptors cost as much as CSMs in a rhino, I would hope they would be cheaper considering all the advantages the rhino offers besides just moving faster ;) .

[Night Lord Dred]

-CSM cannot assault more than 12" (14" out of Rhino) even assuming perfect conditions (a straight line with nothing in the way). Raptors Assault 18" ignoring all terrain and DT checks in the initial 12".

 

-CSM in rhinos can move 12, get out 2 and melta 6"/bolter 12", sure. Except for when you take into account terrain and obstacles. Raptors can just jump over (for ex) the wave serpent to hit rear armour whereas the rhino may not even make it going around. CSM still have to get out (so now theyre likely even more vulnerable than the raptors would be, and why would you get out to just shoot bolters??). Raptors can shoot the transport and move into assault, CSM cant. Raptors essentially deal with straight lines, which is the fastest way to get from A to B.

 

-Raptors essentially cost the same as CSM. 5 point premium on each - 35 points for a rhino. So its just 5 points more for each raptor once you hit 8.

 

-Raptors wont get hit by that anti tank fire because they wont even be seen nor is killing one raptor worth it when there are rhinos to destroy. At the very least they would have a 4+ save, and thats if you make a mistake.

 

-CSM getting blown out of their rhinos IS bad. All anti infantry fire is now heading their way. The reason raptors dont suck is because they can cover hop/hug rhinos and not even be seen.

[Legatus]

And a huge difference in number of attacks. Its 50% more expensive.. no its only 20%.. I'm not doing the cost math... but what I can tell you is that if the raptors are more expensive the CSMs will have that many more wounds, and that many more attacks. More durable and hit harder...

Raptors are more expensive... if teh CSM squad does not come with a Rhino. The whole point of taking the Raptors instead in that situation is because you want a fast unit, not a foot slogging one. If you want a squad to sit at your own objective, CSM are obviously a better choice than Raptors. :D

 

 

Rhinos do not need extra armor. If it is stunned turn 1 you loose 1 turn of movement.

Taking one turn longer untill the squad can assault an enemy unit can hurt your battle plan pretty badly.

 

 

I would hope they would be cheaper considering all the advantages the rhino offers besides just moving faster

12" is not faster than 13-18"...

[ntgcleaner]

So this is how I see it (being the OP).

 

I like Rhinos because:

1. they are armor surrounding cargo

2. they can move 12" per turn (raptors can move 13"-18" to set up if not assaulting)

3. Smoke cover whenever (once)

 

I HATE Rhinos because:

1. Low armor Value

2. They are a large target priority in which you do not need volume of fire to destroy, it's quality on this one, not quantity

3. No Assault Ramp... This is the worst part of a rhino. You move 12" somewhere to "set yourself up" for an assault, you disembark 2" and then you just stand there blinking as you get shot to shreds by the person who was expecting this to happen. You almost have a better chance at Deepstriking some unit where you want in turn 2 or 3. At least you have the surprise and the mental "where is he going to DS" thing going on there. With a rhino, you are aiming straight for your target. No surprise value at all.

 

You deploy 2" from the rhino msn-wink.gif

You MIGHT be able to get about 4 units out to that extra 2" mark. The rest can't be infront of them. they have to be around the tank behind them. So, you MIGHT only have 4 shots at that extra 2" which could possibly be not enough in the first place.

 

whatever destroyed that rhino would have killed a raptor at least. Normally a rhino will take a couple anti tank hits... multiple dead raptors.

Honestly, though. Who is going to fire an anti tank round at raptors to kill one? Especially when you do have more armor on the table that they can shoot at.

 

The point of the raptors in an army is to jump around and dodge shots while you SET UP their army. You MUST be able to set their army up where you want them. You have to control the other army and make them move where you want them. Raptors are great for wrangling loose units and making that Turn 3 or 4 last minute attack. I wouldn't even worry about getting into CC in turn 2. That just seems like a waste. If they do kill what they were gunning for in the assault, then they are stuck there being shot at. Now, you could argue that ~350 points of raptors w/ an HQ is a waste to use only in T3 or T4, but if you are playing objectives, you can easily sweep someone off of theirs using the raptors in concert with another unit. Annihilation, you would be set if you could whittle down the force then attack a regular unit and destroy them, if not, hope for a sweeping advance. Next turn, you do it again. You should be close enough to anything you want to go for at that point.

 

Point is, they are not meant to the only soul assault unit. It must work with another one to be very deadly. but it IS very deadly. Add them with 2x2 oblits and a termicide DS (Even put a targeter on the raptors for the termicide) a unit of CSM and maybe Berserkers still in rhinos. Sure, you only have 2 scoring units but who cares, take care of them and let the others do the work.

[hummus]

Hey all, I have been kind of studying the Chaos Space marines, though, I do not play them (yet). I currently only play a friend who has a Tau army and very rarely go out to find another opponent (Which I would like to do more!). Anyways, I Wrote a list and have been told that raptors really aren't that great for assault. I would just like to know your opinions on these guys.

 

Here's my set up for these raptors and how I see them to be viable in CC.

 

1 HQ Chaos Lord with a pair of LClaws and MoK

5 Raptors w/ MoK and 1 Aspiring Champion with a pair of LClaws and MoK

 

Now, I want to get down to pure number of attacks, I don't want to crunch the numbers on how many of them would die if there were a counter attack and I would never charge them at a unit with higher initiative if I could help it.

 

Let's start off with the HQ:

Base of 3 Attacks

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 6 attacks

(Right so far?)

 

The Raptor Aspiring Champion:

Base of 2 attacks

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 5 attacks

(With me?)

 

Chaos Raptors:

Base of 1 attack

+1 for the charge

+1 for having two CC weapons (is this right? does a pistol count as a CC weapon?)

+1 for MoK

 

Total of 5 attacks per unit = 25 attacks

dont know if it has been pointed out, but 1 +1+1+1 is 4 not 5

[ntgcleaner]

Rofl, Nice catch. -5 points to me.