Treatise on Space Marines (and Space Wolves)

[Valerian]

Introduction

What follows is a short treatise on my vision for all Space Marines, including our beloved Space Wolves, which I have decided to share with the members of The Fang. I originally developed most of these ideas a long while ago, well before the release of the most recent Codex: Space Marines. With the recent release of our own Codex: Space Wolves, I began thinking about some of these ideas again, and decided to revisit my earlier work.

This effort began solely as a mental exercise, to determine what I would do to change the Space Marines, if I were somehow able to influence GWs design decisions. I spent some considerable time thinking about the Adeptus Astartes to try to determine what a Space Marine army should be all about (in my own opinion, of course). In this effort I thought about the aspects of the Space Marine concept that most appeal to me, and, based on their fluff, thought about how such a force would/should “realistically” operate within the environment of the 41st millennium.

 

Analysis

Capability

In this examination I considered several factors - the first of which was to look at the individual Space Marine as a fighting element. Each Space Marine is an elite warrior; he is a genetically engineered super-soldier. Furthermore, his training and experience is vastly superior to any of the other soldiers of the human race (and most of the known alien races as well, for that matter). Each is armed with the most advanced weapons of warfare that the Imperium and its many forge-worlds have to offer, including the trademark Holy Bolter. Each is protected with the most effective suits of either Power Armor or 'Terminator' Tactical Dreadnought Armor. Individually, a Space Marine is the epitome of infantry combat power, and will far out-match an individual warrior of almost any adversary pitted against him. This capability is what makes the Marines so valuable, and explains why they are justifiably respected and feared across the galaxy.

 

Organizational Size

 

The second factor I considered was the matter of their size; there are only about 1 million Space Marines in the entire galaxy, which is about the same as the United States Army (total force including Active Duty, Reserves, and National Guard). A single Chapter has only 1,000 Marines, which is roughly the size of 2 modern U.S. Army battalions. We must realize that this is incredibly small, considering both the almost incomprehensible amount of space and planets that they are responsible for helping to defend. This small size would certainly dictate how Space Marines would operate and be employed by the Imperium. They simply do not have the numbers to support certain tactics. They cannot face the possibility of warfare of attrition, nor can they expose themselves to the concentrated firepower of the enemy.

 

Operating Environment

 

Yet another factor that I considered is that of their operational environment. These warriors are, foremost, Marines that are based on space-vessels. Much like modern Marines aboard amphibious ships in expeditionary strike groups, Space Marines fight from the fleet. Knowing a little bit about the United States Marine Corps sea-basing operational concepts, I considered what this might look like in the context of space force application.

 

Other 40K Armies

 

Yet another factor that I examined was that of the other 40k armies. The Imperial Guard has been designed to look like a futuristic version of a modern army, and they've already got that niche well-covered. They can provide the "blitz-krieg" mechanized force of the Imperium. As it currently stands, the Space Marines and Imperial Guard are little more than reflections of one another with Rhinos, Predators and Whirlwinds, instead of Chimeras, Leman Russes, and Basilisks. What 40k needs in a Space Marine force is an army that is unique, and distinct from its counterparts, and not a variation of another Imperial force that is better suited to that combat style in the background material.

 

Conclusions

As I considered these and other factors, I understood the fact that Space Marines must be used in a manner that maximizes their advantages while minimizing their disadvantages. If I were to deploy a full chapter (1,000+ men) of Space Marines on a battlefield as a mechanized force with its Rhino Armored Personnel Carriers, Razorback Infantry Fighting Vehicles, and Predator Tanks, exposed to the enemy in a battle of maneuver, they wouldn't stand a chance. The only way, in my opinion, to think about how to make the Marines viable on the hypothetical 40k battlefield is with the rapid Orbital Assault concept. They have to get into the fight, strike at the heart (center of gravity) of the enemy, and exit before the adversary has an opportunity to reorganize and react. If the enemy has an opportunity to react and bring its power to bear against the Marines force, then they are surely doomed, regardless of how well-trained or equipped they are individually.

 

Recommendations

I'd like to see the Codex Astartes changed, and therefore the army lists changed, to reflect that Space Marines should be organized, equipped, and trained to fight like a space-based Marine force ought to. According to their 4th edition codex, the Space Marines "deliver a decisive blow to the enemy" via orbital assault to "surgically destroy their targets, leaving the enemy leaderless and disorganized." This strategy and design tenet makes perfect sense given that they are an elite, superhuman force of warriors numbering a paltry 1 million fighting men, compared to the untold billions of soldiers in the Imperial Guard.

 

It follows then, given this governing employment strategy, that Space Marines should be designed with the requirement for them to operate directly from-the-fleet-to-the-fight. Space Marine vessels deliver "powerful, sustained bombardments" and are able to "punch through planetary defenses to deliver [their] deadly cargo." Whereas most Imperial Guard regiments would require secure ground-based space ports and lodgment areas, from which they would mobilize forces, generate combat power, organize and rehearse their units prior to moving forward to the area of operations, Space Marines should be engaging the enemy center of gravity within minutes of entering the planetary orbit. With this in mind, there shouldn't be a single Space Marine unit or system that cannot Deep Strike into battle.

 

This concept of how Space Marines are employed (which differs significantly from how I would envision Imperial Guard, Orks, and most other army types to operate), should be reflected then in the Codex Astartes, and thus also in the various Space Marine army lists. Foremost, other than the fact that these were the models that Citadel Miniatures could produce back in the 80's when the Space Marines were first dreamed up, there is no reason for such a force to have wheeled-bikes, or tracked armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled artillery rocket systems, or tanks. Those combat systems are perfectly suited for the Imperial Guard, not the Marines. Space Marines require an infantry-centric organization (they are, after-all, elite superhuman power-armored killing machines) with augmentation from support weapon platforms and transport craft that are air and space capable. Space Marine operations dictate that their vehicles must be able to rapidly deploy the Marine detachment from the space-based orbiting fleet down to the fight on the ground, support them while they're conducting the assault, and redeploy the force back to the fleet when their mission has been successfully accomplished.

 

The Land Speeder is a perfect example of what "fits" a Space Marine force. It is a close-support heavy weapon platform that fills a role similar to that of the modern attack helicopter. It can self-deploy straight from the Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser to the battlefield, and provide immediate support to the Marine infantry. Similarly, the Thunderhawk Gunship is a perfect fit for our Marines. This very well-armed and armored aircraft transports loads of infantry straight into the fight from the space vessel, and then supports them with considerable firepower once the squads have been deployed. However, the Thunderhawk is a vehicle that is beyond the scope and scale of a typical game of 40K, and is best suited for games using the Apocalypse rule-set, or similar mega-battle scenarios. Drop pods are another example of something that fits, however, consideration must be given to how those pods and the men they carried can be rapidly recovered and returned to the orbiting space vessels at the conclusion of the battle. What the Space Marines truly need, then, are vehicle systems like these that fill the gaps for niche requirements; for example:

 

An aircraft like the Thunderhawk, but smaller, capable of transporting 12 (a single Marine squad + Independent Character(s))

 

Update: The designers at Games Workshop have listened, and have finally offered the Space Marines almost exactly what I asked for. Enter the Tantalus Lander, to be introduced in the upcoming Blood Angels codex. See my thread on the Lander for more information. Based on everything that I’ve written above, the Tantalus is exactly what the Space Marines need. Thanks

GW

, well done!

 

More consideration should be given to Teleportation, as well. Why is it that Terminator squads are the only units that are/can be teleported into battle? Of course, for us Space Wolves, that alternative is not available even to our Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, but it is worth thinking about for other types of Marine forces.

 

Lastly, I'd reorganize each Chapter to reflect a more realistic, efficient, and effective fighting force. All 10 companies should be Battle Companies, each with a Strike Cruiser for galactic force projection requirements. There is no good reason to pool the Veterans, Scouts, etc. into separate companies that may be light years away from the Battle Companies that might need reinforcements. This is not an issue for our Space Wolves, as we are organized into Great Companies that are each their own fully functional and self-sufficient fighting forces.

 

Answering Potential Criticism

 

I'd love to see marines tailored this way, or least able to be. But as said not all chapters fight this way.

 

 

True, as currently written, the Marines only fight in the manner that I described some of the time. The thing is, with only 1,000 fighting Marines per chapter, they really ought to fight as I described every time. It simply does not make any sense at all to employ this kind of force in the same manner as the Imperial Guard as a conventional mechanized force, with Tanks, Infantry Fighting Vehicles, Armored Personnel Carriers, etc. maneuvering across a battlefield. This type of warfare doesn't play to the strength of Space Marines. It is a waste, and isn't necessary. Furthermore, the only reason they are portrayed, sometimes, as fighting this way is that this was the only thing the designers could come up with back in the mid-80's. They could produce Rhino's, Predators, and Land Raiders, so that's what the Marines got stuck with - and a fluff-based fighting style to go along with it. As for me, I say it is high time to leave all of that junk behind and evolve the Space Marines into something that makes sense thematically.

Firstly, I must certainly admit that the Orbital Assault is only one of the three main tactics used by the Space Marines, with the other two being the Armored Spearhead and the Infiltrate and Raid. I must also grant that there has been loads of fluff on many of the chapters that discusses how they generally fight, and what themes are emphasized for their armies. For example, the White Scars really like riding around on bikes; thematically, the White Scars are supposed to reflect a Mongolian horde, or nomadic horsemen, so the bikes replace the horses.

 

Based on this understanding, I acknowledge that my suggestions above in no way reflect all three of the main tactics or the variety of 'personalities' that GW has created for many of the Chapters that it has bothered to detail. Using my recommendations will not get you a siege-warfare specialist chapter that likes to bring in loads of Vindicators so that they can bombard the city walls, as the Imperial Fists are known to do.

 

So, I guess it all boils down to me sharing with you the vision that I have for the Space Marines, and what I would do with them if someone at GW design put me in charge. I know it won't happen; there are too many people that like their old fluff, enjoy their tanks, and the way their army plays on the battlefield, but I still figured it was worth sharing.

 

Very best regards,

 

Valerian

[Freman Bloodglaive]

It suggests that Blood Angels (if they keep the option for jump pack troops) might reflect this tactic best. Deep strike with jump packs. Move in quickly and kill the enemy. Finish game.

[Night Runner]

Unfortunately, I agree with you completely. The way the fluff portrays SM as small superhuman strike force would lead to your view of fast deployment via drop pods and teleportation as a thematically more realistic way to use them. I would also agree with your point on battle companies. I always wondered what practical use could a Devastator company be? It is actually a waste of a 100 superhuman warriors who could be better deployed in the heart of the operation. It would make more sense to have a reserved battle company IMO. To add to this I also don't like the concept of marines with just a bolter and combat knife. It just doesn't make sense fluff wise. If they all have power armour, I don't see why they can't all have an extra CC and use it. Personally I would make True Grit available to all Tactical Squads and leave Space Wolves with their current 'Uber Grit'.

 

I say unfortunately because I am one of those gamers 'that likes their old fluff, enjoys their tanks, and the way their army plays on the battlefield', and I would not like 'to leave all of that junk behind'. That said, I would definitely like to 'evolve the Space Marines into something that makes sense thematically'. But I would go about it differently.

 

First of all, if I had my way I would change the fluff and drastically increase the size of Chapters. The amount of SM is ridiculously low. If their are countless billions of IG, then I would have millions of SM. This is one of the reasons I prefer 30K. On this legion level the use of tanks etc would be justified (even though I could think of situations that could justify their use under the current fluff). This is also the reason I enjoy Epic so much.

 

It is true that they will just be a 'superior form of IG', and that they still wouldn't be operating in a thematically realistic way, but I think having certain differing troop types (or lack of) can help ameliorate the situation. For example SM have drop pods and teleportation, but are not so heavily equipped with ordinance and armour like the IG.

 

Also I would find playing without the old fluff toys rather boring on an enjoyment level, despite challenging on a gaming level. So, although you are absolutely correct and justified in your views, I, without any malice, hope GW do not listen to you! :)

 

Thanks for sharing the excellent treatise,

 

NR

[space wolf]

I also agree. Additionally, model and rule wise, all the marine models should be about the same size as actual terminators, and would probably have a higher toughness. There would be even fewer of them on the table. That said, I like your ideas. It makes me want to say...."COME ON YOU APES! ON THE BOUNCE!"

[dizzy-xc]

Wow, nice article.

 

Yeah, I agree with everything said. You hit on all the points how the space marines are 'broken' and how they need to be fixed to make sense.

 

Mobilization and rapid response and deployment should be the Space Marines calling cards. Anything else comes up short. In saying that, here are some things I want to see:

 

• 1. Boarding Torpedoes
  2. Space to ground transports/gunships
  a. IG Valkyrie type flyers
  b. Vulture Gunships
  c. Land Speeder Tempests
  d. Land Speeder Storm general transports (not just scouts)
  e. Arvus/Tantalus Landers
  3. Across the board teleportation and or teleport pods
  4. Everything should be drop poddable
  5. More mobility choices, ie., jump packs, land speeders, etc.
  

 

Only by utilizing the above can the limits of the space marines be overcome and their true mission exploited to the fullest. I dont know why GW is dragging their feet... They need to jump headlong into the deep end and get it over with. Retrofit all existing marine codexes with the above goodies with the introduction of the next BA codex and get it over with.

 

It wouldnt be too hard to do rules ourselves for the above. Taking it all in, especially how the space marines are so broken with how their mission is suppose to work, I'd like to see some fast introduction of this stuff officially or unofficially.

 

Diz

[Tybrus]

Wow, nice article.

 

Yeah, I agree with everything said. You hit on all the points how the space marines are 'broken' and how they need to be fixed to make sense.

 

Mobilization and rapid response and deployment should be the Space Marines calling cards. Anything else comes up short. In saying that, here are some things I want to see:

 

• 1. Boarding Torpedoes
  2. Space to ground transports/gunships
  a. IG Valkyrie type flyers
  b. Vulture Gunships
  c. Land Speeder Tempests
  d. Land Speeder Storm general transports (not just scouts)
  e. Arvus/Tantalus Landers
  3. Across the board teleportation and or teleport pods
  4. Everything should be drop poddable
  5. More mobility choices, ie., jump packs, land speeders, etc.
  

 

Only by utilizing the above can the limits of the space marines be overcome and their true mission exploited to the fullest. I dont know why GW is dragging their feet... They need to jump headlong into the deep end and get it over with. Retrofit all existing marine codexes with the above goodies with the introduction of the next BA codex and get it over with.

 

It wouldnt be too hard to do rules ourselves for the above. Taking it all in, especially how the space marines are so broken with how their mission is suppose to work, I'd like to see some fast introduction of this stuff officially or unofficially.

 

Diz

 

Ummmmm...... The deep end you speak off ... yeah those of us grey beards call it Rouge Trader. The Days when EVERY Marine had a Jumppack. You know those things you kids call power packs, yeah those were jump packs. Those things you kids call jump packs were flight packs buts thats a different story...

 

Anyway, yeah back in the day everything had jump packs, Dreadnoughts Yep they had them. And you think that 12" is a Jump pack try 24" now that was a jump pack.

 

So yeah every marine had a jump pack, every dreadnought had a jump pack, and even your dog had a jump pack. Hell your marines even had jet bikes to zoom around with.

 

I could go on and on but you get the point.

 

Then it was changed, and the reason was simple because Marines always won. Every game, everytime, all go, no stop. Marines would jump to the middle of the table and take up cover and set up our slow weapons. Every other race would have moved maybe 1/4th of the way into the board by then and we would gun then down as they moved up the rest of the game.

 

 

Ok so it was changed, and it was to make the game balanced. Remember most of the changes to 40 since RT have been for game Balance, and to allow for tournament settings and games.

 

Everything that has been said is all 100% correct and if 40K was real it would have been that way for sure, but this is a game, that is balanced to allow for large tournies and make HUGE cash for people.

 

Now lets all go write up a game that makes sense =) (But we know it will never be as cool)

[dizzy-xc]

Hehe, I remember my days of RT. I read up on all teh fluffiness of Space Marine badness and made a pretty good force I thought and ended up getting my arse kicked by a few Zoats in powered armor with conversion fields using shuriken catapults and vortex nades. I wondered how the Emperors finest got wasted so quickly and so effectively. Put a bad taste in my mouth concerning Marine badness for a long time.

 

So yeah, man, I've been there from the RT days and despite missing everything 4th edition wise, as I took a gaming hiatus, I'm back and grasp full well how the game has evolved for the sake of popularity and money making. Tourneys, dont get me started. I'm not that kinda player having done it and seeing the god awful people who play them. Some are really cool, but many have the lust for victory so cloud their mind they resemble more of a crazy eyed, zombie like starving lawyer trying to put bread on the table any way they can. Playing these people bring out the worst in the game.

 

What I am talking about here are improvements to make the Space Marines operate how they should. Never once did I say throw game balance out the door. Things can be added to retain playability. Playability is such a loaded word. I hate it sometimes, but you gotta have it or else all hell breaks loose. But imagine... scenario wise, which battles in history have had the same points available for both sides at the start? Few indeed. And that's my point. Battles dont all have to be tourneys. They dont all have to be fair/equal. Games can be setup from the start with one player knowing full well he is supposed to lose. The thing they do need to be is fun. And any addition to the Space Marines I listed above can contain two caveats: not to be used in tourneys, and only available in certain types of battles.

 

And don't get me started about kids. They have more imagination than you and me put together. Where did ours go? So here's me seeing you off with my dog and his jump pack! :lol:

[Icewolf]

I agree that this is how space marines should be but if you could rapidly deploy a tank like a land raider is suppot of the marines then surley that would be a good thing.

 

http://ibankcoin.com/chart_addict/wp-content/imagescaler/c5f6a60c94808bca919b365233ac0686.jpg

 

Icewolf

[dizzy-xc]

I think land raiders should be able to deep strike. This represents a teleport pod or being dumped on the battlefield by a TH.

[Tybrus]

Hehe, I remember my days of RT. I read up on all teh fluffiness of Space Marine badness and made a pretty good force I thought and ended up getting my arse kicked by a few Zoats in powered armor with conversion fields using shuriken catapults and vortex nades. I wondered how the Emperors finest got wasted so quickly and so effectively. Put a bad taste in my mouth concerning Marine badness for a long time.

 

So yeah, man, I've been there from the RT days and despite missing everything 4th edition wise, as I took a gaming hiatus, I'm back and grasp full well how the game has evolved for the sake of popularity and money making. Tourneys, dont get me started. I'm not that kinda player having done it and seeing the god awful people who play them. Some are really cool, but many have the lust for victory so cloud their mind they resemble more of a crazy eyed, zombie like starving lawyer trying to put bread on the table any way they can. Playing these people bring out the worst in the game.

 

What I am talking about here are improvements to make the Space Marines operate how they should. Never once did I say throw game balance out the door. Things can be added to retain playability. Playability is such a loaded word. I hate it sometimes, but you gotta have it or else all hell breaks loose. But imagine... scenario wise, which battles in history have had the same points available for both sides at the start? Few indeed. And that's my point. Battles dont all have to be tourneys. They dont all have to be fair/equal. Games can be setup from the start with one player knowing full well he is supposed to lose. The thing they do need to be is fun. And any addition to the Space Marines I listed above can contain two caveats: not to be used in tourneys, and only available in certain types of battles.

 

And don't get me started about kids. They have more imagination than you and me put together. Where did ours go? So here's me seeing you off with my dog and his jump pack! :confused:

 

Now that I agree with 100%. I don't play tourneys either, as I prefer sernio based games. I feel if your game of 40k doesn't take 8 hours to play and tell a great story you have done something wrong.

 

I also agree on the point thing. What 40k should have is a chart and you roll on, much like what mission are you playing and it shows what force you have. Say 1/2 the points of the attack but are defender or whatever but yeah Don't know many Battles where Co's have checked their points total with their enemy before go time.

 

Anyway, I agree on how things should work, and my firends and I who have all played toghter since RT have our own rules sets and play most of our games old RT style of just agree with your firends on some rules before you start and go. Heck here are the rules for my up coming friday game...

 

"A veil Planetary Governor has sold his soul to Chaos and is planning on using the lives of his whole world as a sacrifice to the warp to gain power. He has a Loyal House Hold guard that knows nothing of his plans but has served his family for the last 10 generations. They are held up in the Governors Palace in the Center of the Capital City. About two months ago a small force of Space Marines joined the Governor, and they have been fortifying the palace and city against planetary assault every since. The Forces of the Planet have been told that forces of Chaos will attack soon and they will need to be ready to hold out.

 

An Inquisition team that had been on planet at the time heard of this “attack”, and were able to find that the “Marines” were one of the Fallen (Pick One). They sent word back just before they were captured and killed. Word reached A Great Company of Space Wolves that were returning to the fang after a long Campaign. Being ill equipped to a full planetary assault the Wolf Lord decides that a Fast Assault to behead the snake will be the best tactic.

 

Battle

6 Turn Game

7th Turn on a 4+

(We can use planetary assault rules if you like but I want to keep this simple for FOC’s)

 

Defender

3000 Points of Imperial Guard 1 normal FOC (Must Take Creed to Act as the Governor)

1000 Points of Chaos (Troops Only)

Full Control of setting up the Table (Reasonable Auto Defenses for the Palace included)

 

Table must reflect the heart of an Imperial City that has received a surgical and recent Orbital Bombardment with a Central Palace. The Governor Will be held up within the Palace.

Defender Can Select Up to 5 Points of Defense Assets from either Cities of Death, Apocalypse, or Planetary Assault

Sets Up First

 

Victory Points

1) Creed Lives 2 Points

2) Select 2 Secret Objective (Ritual) points Pre game, If still in control 1 Point per

3) Select 3 Military Public Objectives (Normal Rules for these)

 

Attacker

3000 of Space Wolves 1 Normal FOC

Attack Can Select Up to 5 Points of Attack Assets from either Cities of Death, Apocalypse, or Planetary Assault

Attacker May Fire 3 Pre-Battle Bombardments before 1st turn but after set up.

Gets 1st Turn

 

Victory Points

1) Creed Killed 3 Points

2) Select 1 Secret Objective (Inquisition Data Recovery) point Pre game, If in control 1 Point

3) See Defender #3

 

Thoughts?"

 

Anyway that is the way most of our games go

[dizzy-xc]

thats an awesome setup... and could lead to a campaign style play where not everyone gets same points. I love it.

[Tybrus]

Feel free to use it if you like, I almost always insite that any game I play have a back story or else I can't get into it. I find it makes the game FAR better. Anyway use it if you like (Anyone) or the style or what not, we have been doing games like this since RT and have always had fun.

[Valerian]

Unfortunately, I agree with you completely....

 

Also I would find playing without the old fluff toys rather boring on an enjoyment level, despite challenging on a gaming level. So, although you are absolutely correct and justified in your views, I, without any malice, hope GW do not listen to you! :D

 

Thanks for sharing the excellent treatise,

 

NR

 

Thanks for the feedback, and I certainly understand your position.

 

I also agree. Additionally, model and rule wise, all the marine models should be about the same size as actual terminators, and would probably have a higher toughness. There would be even fewer of them on the table. That said, I like your ideas. It makes me want to say...."COME ON YOU APES! ON THE BOUNCE!"

 

Great Russ! It is extremely rare that old 'space wolf' comes out of hiding. I am honored that my thread drew you out of your lair mate, and that you agree. Props for the Mobile Infantry reference, as well.

 

Wow, nice article.

 

Yeah, I agree with everything said. You hit on all the points how the space marines are 'broken' and how they need to be fixed to make sense.

 

Excellent; glad that you agree.

 

Mobilization and rapid response and deployment should be the Space Marines calling cards. Anything else comes up short. In saying that, here are some things I want to see....

 

Good list of recommendations, Diz.

 

In a way, I feel that Space Marines are at a thematic disadvantage because they have been around since the inception of the game. If they had been developed later, the designers would have had a better opportunity to really explore and develop what the army should be all about in the background and better bring that concept into the rules and onto the tabletop.

 

Take the Tau for example; they weren't around for the first decade of the game. When they were invented and introduced, they were developed with a consistent background, theme, and rules design. Even if you don't care for the Tau, you have to admit that their wargear and weapons "fit them", their vehicles "fit them", their army and unit special rules "fit them". They are a completely unique force, and no other army in 40k looks, feels, or plays like them.

 

We should expect the same from the Space Marines, but it is not what we've got. The Space Marines do not have unique armor, weapons, wargear, vehicles or special rules (in many instances). On the tabletop, they operate like a variation of several other possible armies.

 

Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir. But the point stands that I'd would really appreciate a clean slate and a fresh start, and would love for the designers to start from the drawing board and really do justice to one of the coolest ideas in tabletop gaming (the iconic Space Marines).

 

Ummmmm...... The deep end you speak off ... yeah those of us grey beards call it Rouge Trader. The Days when EVERY Marine had a Jumppack. You know those things you kids call power packs, yeah those were jump packs. Those things you kids call jump packs were flight packs buts thats a different story...

 

Yeah, I played throughout Rogue Trader, too. Don't assume that everyone that posts here is new to the game.

 

V

[Gree]

A single Chapter has only 1,000 Marines, which is roughly the size of 2 modern U.S. Army battalions.

 

Incorrect, see ''Thousand Marine myth'' on this very site's library.

 

Conclusions

As I considered these and other factors, I understood the fact that Space Marines must be used in a manner that maximizes their advantages while minimizing their disadvantages. If I were to deploy a full chapter (1,000+ men) of Space Marines on a battlefield as a mechanized force with its Rhino Armored Personnel Carriers, Razorback Infantry Fighting Vehicles, and Predator Tanks, exposed to the enemy in a battle of maneuver, they wouldn't stand a chance. The only way, in my opinion, to think about how to make the Marines viable on the hypothetical 40k battlefield is with the rapid Orbital Assault concept. They have to get into the fight, strike at the heart (center of gravity) of the enemy, and exit before the adversary has an opportunity to reorganize and react. If the enemy has an opportunity to react and bring its power to bear against the Marines force, then they are surely doomed, regardless of how well-trained or equipped they are individually.

 

Hilariously Dark Creed has about 7,000 Astartes go against several million well-supplied, well-trained, and well-led Guardsmen and are winning until later events in the books. Brothers of the Snake has Damocles Squad kill thousands singlehandedly. There are multiple refernces to Marines conquering planets. So, not really. It kind of depends how super the GW writers decide to write marines.

 

I agree that this is how space marines should be but if you could rapidly deploy a tank like a land raider is suppot of the marines then surley that would be a good thing.

 

Even more amusing the White Consuls do exactly that in Dark Creed with Valens's Land Raider. Indeed, Dark Creed is full of Word Bearers rapidly deploying and redeploying Rhinos, Predators, etc, etc, all over the Battlefield.

[Valerian]

A single Chapter has only 1,000 Marines, which is roughly the size of 2 modern U.S. Army battalions.

 

Incorrect, see ''Thousand Marine myth'' on this very site's library.

 

 

I've seen that in the past, but the point still stands, a standard Chapter has roughly 1,000 Marines and the exact number will be on that same order of magnitude. Within the fluff for every Chapter that has more than 1,000 there is some Chapter somewhere that is recovering from significant losses.

 

Hilariously Dark Creed has about 7,000 Astartes go against several million well-supplied, well-trained, and well-led Guardsmen and are winning until later events in the books. Brothers of the Snake has Damocles Squad kill thousands singlehandedly. There are multiple refernces to Marines conquering planets. So, not really. It kind of depends how super the GW writers decide to write marines.

 

I'm not sure if your point here was in support of what I was saying or an attempt to contridict. Yes, in the background material examples of events as you've provided just above do happen (e.g. 7,000 Astartes take on several million Guardsman in a campaign and can concievably win). Using the doctrine that I am recommending this could be feasible, as the Marines would never place themselves in a position for those millions of Guardsmen to bring their combat power to bear against the Marines forces. They would make all of those soldiers irrelevant by isolating them from the true battlefields and critical points in a campaign of surgical strikes. However, using ground maneuver warfare as we see used in the current game by Space Marines, this is simply laughable; they would be overwhelmed in minutes.

 

V

[dizzy-xc]

A single Chapter has only 1,000 Marines, which is roughly the size of 2 modern U.S. Army battalions.

 

Incorrect, see ''Thousand Marine myth'' on this very site's library.

 

 

Gotta weigh in here... You think 700 more marines makes that big a difference in this galaxy spanning context? Consider the 1000 strong force those marines that are battle ready for foot slogging... the others have other 'duties'.

[Gree]

[i'm not sure if your point here was in support of what I was saying or an attempt to contridict. Yes, in the background material examples of events as you've provided just above do happen (e.g. 7,000 Astartes take on several million Guardsman in a campaign and can concievably win). Using the doctrine that I am recommending this could be feasible, as the Marines would never place themselves in a position for those millions of Guardsmen to bring their combat power to bear against the Marines forces. They would make all of those soldiers irrelevant by isolating them from the true battlefields and critical points in a campaign of surgical strikes.

 

Contridicting, from what I gather the Word Bearers take them all on and win. I just rechecked the book and it flat out states that the Word Bearers are engageing hundreds of millions and tank companies in a war of attrition and holding their own. One guardsman referenced ''constant battle''. Marduk estimates ten billion Guardsmen, and claims the Word Bearers are winning.

 

Now to be fair it's said that the Word Bearers might eventually be overwhelmed. (although the Guardsman says this doubtfully) However the mere fact that they were engaged in a full on urban war with hundreds of millions of Guardsmen does not really lend well to your theory of being overwhelmed in minutes. In fact one of the CSM Hosts is listed as fighting in a massive seige against an enemy hive in the upper part of the planet. The whole tone of the Imperial part of the book is that they are losing in a war of attrition including a seige and full urban warfare.

 

So the Word Bearers were fighting against ten billion Guardsmen and three hundred Marines and winning.

 

However, using ground maneuver warfare as we see used in the current game by Space Marines, this is simply laughable; they would be overwhelmed in minutes.

 

Ah, here's the problem. Tabletop does not equal fluff at all. I really doubt Marines fluffwise will line up in an 18th century gunline and let the enemy deploy across on open field. They did nothing of the sort in Imperial Armor.

 

Gotta weigh in here... You think 700 more marines makes that big a difference in this galaxy spanning context? Consider the 1000 strong force those marines that are battle ready for foot slogging... the others have other 'duties'.

 

Given Dark Creed....I would say yes.

[Decoy]

Kinda got to weigh in on the side of "Disagree" with the OP, mostly for the reasons that Gree gave. They're Marines; Five hundred can take on a world. Look at Lukas the Trickster and his ONE squad of Blood Claws freezing an entire Ork-held world; Billions of orks, ten to fifteen Blood Claws, Blood Claws win.

 

*shrugs* It's not about numbers, but cunning, intellect, trickery, and strategy above all else.

[Gree]

Kinda got to weigh in on the side of "Disagree" with the OP, mostly for the reasons that Gree gave. They're Marines; Five hundred can take on a world. Look at Lukas the Trickster and his ONE squad of Blood Claws freezing an entire Ork-held world; Billions of orks, ten to fifteen Blood Claws, Blood Claws win.

 

*shrugs* It's not about numbers, but cunning, intellect, trickery, and strategy above all else.

 

What happens when it comes down to a war of attrition, like in Dark Creed? (Which the Word Bearers where winning by the way)

[dizzy-xc]

U sure the word bearers dont have caos cultists or chaos demons or such helping them? Mb orbital support?

 

Even the Soul Drinkers chapter KNEW they couldnt handle all the imperial guard troops. Once the tanks lined up outside their building the Sould Drinkers sought a quick escape.

 

Fluff is written to the point where heavy weapons kill marines period. In Urban warfare, marines, providing they can get to where the tanks cant get a bead on them, are the best shock troops you can get. You cant even overwhelm marines in hand to hand. The Word Bearers would butcher guardsmen in close combat. But given enough time to where the IG can bring about some heavy artiller and weapons and box the marines in... the guerilla tactics the word bearers are using is a moot point. They'd die.

 

Of course, we all want to read about heroic acts, I mean thats why there are like 9 Rambo movies. But Marines arnt suited for a stand up fight and everyone knows it. They get killed. And more times than not, Marines are redeployed where they are needed most to break a front or kill a commander. They arnt used for front line duty cuz they die there and often holding the line proves too costly. I'll probably not read Dark Creed. Sounds like Rambo 10.

[Gree]

U sure the word bearers dont have caos cultists or chaos demons or such helping them? Mb orbital support?

 

No, it's actually stated to be just the Word Bearers, not cultists, and the orbit was heavily contested for most of the book.

[Valerian]

I'm sorry Gree, but you have entirely missed the whole point of this.

 

V

[Decoy]

Kinda got to weigh in on the side of "Disagree" with the OP, mostly for the reasons that Gree gave. They're Marines; Five hundred can take on a world. Look at Lukas the Trickster and his ONE squad of Blood Claws freezing an entire Ork-held world; Billions of orks, ten to fifteen Blood Claws, Blood Claws win.

 

*shrugs* It's not about numbers, but cunning, intellect, trickery, and strategy above all else.

 

What happens when it comes down to a war of attrition, like in Dark Creed? (Which the Word Bearers where winning by the way)

 

One can't ever simply boil a war down to "numbers", or a war of attrition. There are always alternative variables, always a "win" condition; drop the enemy commander, blow up this armory, destroy this supply line, annihilate that bridge. The only time that there's not such an alternate variable is when Marines have let themselves get surrounded, backed against a wall, or what have you. As one of the few points I agree with in the OP; Surgical strikes are what Marines specialize at. They'll get to where they're going, they'll do the deed, and they'll win. They may die, but they will win, more often than not in heroic fashion.

 

NOTE: Yes, Marines have died. But look at most of the times Marines have lost; It is to other Marines! Perhaps not loyalist, but more often than not, it's to Chaos marines. Why? Well, Chaos marines aren't the most prolific group out there. They suffer from the same overarching difficulties that are listed by the OP; small numbers (comparatively), unable to stand to a straight fight (supposedly). However, if the OP was correct in his assessment, every Black Crusade would simply be stopped by the billions of Guardsmen who stand in their way. That is never the case; More often than not, worlds are slaughtered and billions of humans killed by these Crusades, when, by the OP's analysis, they would lose. Chaos does not strike with the efficiency of regular Marines, but instead, they launch hammerblow after hammerblow, and still win.

[Gree]

I'm sorry Gree, but you have entirely missed the whole point of this.

 

V

 

Actually I think it's more likely you can't find any counterpoint at all to my evidence that I have put forth. Dark Creed pretty blatently shows exactly what you accuse marines of not doing, a war of attrition with ten billion Guardsmen. Concession accepted. That was a nice argument. Thanks, but better luck next time my friend.

 

One can't ever simply boil a war down to "numbers", or a war of attrition.

 

It did in Dark Creed, I can get quotes if you want.

[Decoy]

Aye, but are you factoring in armor? Weaponry-style? Entrenchments? Defenses? Heavy weapons? Heavy support?

 

"Numbers" ignore these. Even the difference between a Bolter and a Lasgun is one of great significance; the effect of a boltgun on flak armor is significantly more impressive than that of a lasgun on Ceramite armor. Numbers games just don't take that into account.