Treatise on Space Marines (and Space Wolves)

[Gree]

Aye, but are you factoring in armor? Weaponry-style? Entrenchments? Defenses? Heavy weapons? Heavy support?

 

"Numbers" ignore these. Even the difference between a Bolter and a Lasgun is one of great significance; the effect of a boltgun on flak armor is significantly more impressive than that of a lasgun on Ceramite armor. Numbers games just don't take that into account.

 

 

Actually yes, the Guard on Boros actually had Superheavy tanks and entire hive cities churning out weapons constantly. Large numbers of Leman Russes, Hellhounds and Chimeras are all described, as well as extensive anti-air and planetary defense. The White Consuls character even notes it's heaviliy fortifed. It says so right in the novel. Entire tank companies are described. The Guard where even stated to be highly experianced veterans and well-equipped.

 

The Guard even have 3 companies of White Consuls on their side. They still lose to 7,000 Word Bearers.

 

So yes, I factored that all in.

[Decoy]

Aye, but what did the Word Bearers have? (As a sidenote; One source alone does not a tactical summary make. I'm speaking as a whole, not just "Dark Creed". )

 

Okay, so now the material is accounted for. The Word Bearers have the Hives as targets, and have a plentiful supply of tanks via hijack or stealing; highly elite forces now have access to weaponry designed to fight specifically against things like hive cities.

 

Now to training. Guard versus the Bearers. Quantify that into the equation as well?

[Gree]

Aye, but what did the Word Bearers have? (As a sidenote; One source alone does not a tactical summary make. I'm speaking as a whole, not just "Dark Creed". )

 

Actually yes, one source does make it. I am simply listing the forces that where actually present at the battle. For example, the Word Bearers did not posses the Planet Killer, nor the Guard Yarrick.

 

The Word Bearers has a fleet that was tied up in orbit with the Imperial fleet. 7,000 Astartes with armored support and a demi-legion with Titans that took heavy casulties during the fight with the Superheavies. They had daemonic support, both partially manifested and fully manifested.

 

There where not cultists at all noted.

 

Okay, so now the material is accounted for. The Word Bearers have the Hives as targets, and have a plentiful supply of tanks via hijack or stealing;

 

They do? They don't have the bodies to man all the tanks.

 

highly elite forces now have access to weaponry designed to fight specifically against things like hive cities.

 

Were are you getting that? The only Titans in the novel took heavy casulties against the Superheavies.

 

Now to training. Guard versus the Bearers. Quantify that into the equation as well?

 

Yes, the Boros Guard were noted as experianced and trained in the start of the novel. Marduk claims that the average Word Bearer was worthy 50 Guardsmen. He also heavily implies that the amount of Word Bearers lost. He claims that ''scores'' of brothers where lost each day. The Guard character claims about 30-40 Guardsmen die each taking down a Word Bearer.

 

Doing some rough math basicly for one Word Bearer there is 1428 Guardsmen for him. All of them well-trained and equipped.

Now where was the ''give me a hundred Marines or a thousand other troops'' quote again?

[Valerian]

I'm sorry Gree, but you have entirely missed the whole point of this.

 

V

 

Actually I think it's more likely you can't find any counterpoint at all to my evidence that I have put forth. Dark Creed pretty blatently shows exactly what you accuse marines of not doing, a war of attrition with ten billion Guardsmen. Concession accepted. That was a nice argument. Thanks, but better luck next time my friend.

 

Gree, I don't mind when folks disagree with me, really I don't. It happens all of the time on this board, and I wouldn't expect or want it to be any other way. With hundreds of folks on this board there has to be different views on things; I expect that. You, however, do not understand. Not understanding is different than not agreeing. I haven't bothered to try to counter your evidence, because your evidence isn't even relevant to the discussion. Maybe if you go back and reread the original post, this time with the goal of trying to understand it, then perhaps you will gain some insight.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Gree]

I'm sorry Gree, but you have entirely missed the whole point of this.

 

V

 

Actually I think it's more likely you can't find any counterpoint at all to my evidence that I have put forth. Dark Creed pretty blatently shows exactly what you accuse marines of not doing, a war of attrition with ten billion Guardsmen. Concession accepted. That was a nice argument. Thanks, but better luck next time my friend.

 

Gree, I don't mind when folks disagree with me, really I don't. It happens all of the time on this board, and I wouldn't expect or want it to be any other way. With hundreds of folks on this board there has to be different views on things; I expect that. You, however, do not understand. Not understanding is different than not agreeing. I haven't bothered to try to counter your evidence, because your evidence isn't even relevant to the discussion. Maybe if you go back and reread the original post, this time with the goal of trying to understand it, then perhaps you will gain some insight.

 

Regards,

 

V

 

I fully understand your post. I was simply adressing a sub-point which you stated that ''Marines would be overwhelmed in minutes against the Guard.

 

[. They cannot face the possibility of warfare of attrition, nor can they expose themselves to the concentrated firepower of the enemy.

 

The Word Bearers seem to do that fine.

 

Using the doctrine that I am recommending this could be feasible, as the Marines would never place themselves in a position for those millions of Guardsmen to bring their combat power to bear against the Marines forces.

 

And the Word Bearers go ahead and do that.

 

However, using ground maneuver warfare as we see used in the current game by Space Marines, this is simply laughable; they would be overwhelmed in minutes.

 

The Word Bearers were winning for 2 months using those ground warfare tactics.

 

 

Here's a peice of advice. Just go out and read ''Dark Creed''

[Valerian]

I fully understand your post.

 

No, no you don't. This last post proved it once again.

 

 

Here's a peice of advice. Just go out and read ''Dark Creed''

 

I don't doubt that the book says exactly what you say it does; it doesn't matter; it is irrelevant.

 

V

[Gree]

I fully understand your post.

 

No, no you don't. This last post proved it once again.

 

I further take this as proof you don't really have any kind of counterpoint at all and can't handle people disagreeing with you. Oh well, I tried to be nice.

 

You know, you it might work better explaining why my point it not relevant and explaining exactly what your point is then. Instead of just telling me I'm irevelant.

 

Here's a peice of advice. Just go out and read ''Dark Creed''

 

I don't doubt that the book says exactly what you say it does; it doesn't matter; it is irrelevant.

 

V

 

Like that.

 

Again, believe whatever you want, I will simply be happy providing GW evidence clearly contridicting what you say as well as your own quotes to back it up. If you want to actualy give me a detailed explanation as to why that is not so, then please, be my guest.

 

Using the doctrine that I am recommending this could be feasible, as the Marines would never place themselves in a position for those millions of Guardsmen to bring their combat power to bear against the Marines forces.

 

See?

[Xeenos]

Soo.. where did these 7,000 Word Bearers get billions of bolter rounds needed to kill the 100's of millions of Guardsmen, or billions of Guardsmen, or whatever.

 

I didnt read all the posts, but i think Dark Creed is done less with a realistic scean in mind, and just a fantisy shoot em up Waaaagh! kinda thing. I mean sure, maybe in ideal conditions the 7,000 Word Bearers could fight the Billions of guard.. but you said their ships were fighting in orbit, most of their Titens downed.. i mean where the hell did they get enough ammo to fight each day? If they killed 100 Guardsmen per bolter round.. and lets say their fighting just one billion guardsmen.. that would still take 10 million bolter rounds.. now you have 7,000 Word Bearers.. each one would have to carry 1429 bullets.. how many is in a Bolter Clip? I dont know, 30? Soo.. thats 48 clips per person..

 

Sounds pritty damned heavy to carry around.. or lets say they can carry it, their super human! Take a look at a bolter.. take a look at a clip in said bolter.. now fill a bag with 48 of thouse and try to carry that while fighting.

 

Hehe..

 

Though, maybe i missed the point somewhere too!

[Gree]

Soo.. where did these 7,000 Word Bearers get billions of bolter rounds needed to kill the 100's of millions of Guardsmen, or billions of Guardsmen, or whatever.

 

I didnt read all the posts, but i think Dark Creed is done less with a realistic scean in mind, and just a fantisy shoot em up Waaaagh! kinda thing. I mean sure, maybe in ideal conditions the 7,000 Word Bearers could fight the Billions of guard.. but you said their ships were fighting in orbit, most of their Titens downed.. i mean where the hell did they get enough ammo to fight each day? If they killed 100 Guardsmen per bolter round.. and lets say their fighting just one billion guardsmen.. that would still take 10 million bolter rounds.. now you have 7,000 Word Bearers.. each one would have to carry 1429 bullets.. how many is in a Bolter Clip? I dont know, 30? Soo.. thats 48 clips per person..

 

Sounds pritty damned heavy to carry around.. or lets say they can carry it, their super human! Take a look at a bolter.. take a look at a clip in said bolter.. now fill a bag with 48 of thouse and try to carry that while fighting.

 

Hehe..

 

Though, maybe i missed the point somewhere too!

 

*Shrugs* I did't write it, I'm just pointing it out that it happened.

[Xeenos]

Makes me wonder what the writer was thinking while putting the plot togeather..

 

I think what people were getting at, though, is while that book says it happened, realisticly, it likly wouldnt. At some point numbers do matter.. When you simply have less ammo then the foe has bodies, your going to lose. Which is the case with Space Marines vs Guard. They just dont have enough ammo, nor can they likly make it fast enough to kill them all. Sure there are other factors to look at, like explosives can kill thousands, flambers can kill a dozen or so, Frags can kill about 6 i guess if were using the blast templet.

[Chaos_Minds]

I agree with the OP.

 

The OP said that marines would never place themselves against guard because they would be overwhelmed. This is true. The example you a giving, Gree, has 7,000 marines against guard along with daemons and titans. The example the OP is using is a regular chapter of 1,000 marines (using 1,000 for simplicity). That is a huge difference in manpower and firepower. You cannot use this as an argument due to it being an exception. Not all Chaos warbands have access to that kind of power on demand and neither do chapters.

 

I think that is why the OP said your point is irrelevant.

[dizzy-xc]

Gree, I also believe you missed the point. There isnt just one person that thinks you have failed to grasp this treatise, man. This novel Dark Creed is dealing with a chaos LEGION. Space Marine chapters are different. Your argument is apples and oranges. I'm really not interested in hearing how a specialist scenario in some book somehow has direct bearing on this topic we are discussing. Thanks for your input.

[Valerian]

Gree,

 

Okay, I will try to explain. It probably wasn't fair to just tell you that you didn't understand what I was trying to get across without at least attemting to show you why. I've hesitated to do so because explaining my point was something that I didn't think was necessary, and might actually prove to be difficult. That is why I recommended that you go back and reread the original post; I thought that if you did that, then what I was saying might click, and I wouldn't have to try to break it down in another way.

 

I will try to use an analogy: and have decided to use Batman as my example. Okay, so I'm going to assume that everyone is familiar with Batman- we know that he is incredibly intelligent; we know that he is a billionare with almost infinite resources; we know that he has access to extraordinary weaponry, wargear and vehicles. Batman has advanced training in various martial arts, great strength, great endurance, and an indominatable will. He doesn't allow pain or fatigue to affect him, and on top of all of these almost inhuman traits, he is also just a little bit psychotic.

 

Come to think of it, after writing all of this, Batman shares a whole hell of a lot of characteristics with your average Space Marine ; )

 

Okay, back to Batman. How does he fight crime, criminal organizations, and the cold-hearted villians of Gothem? Like a ninja, that's how. He strikes in the dark, when the bad guys are vulnerable. He uses the fear of his targets as a weapon. He isolates his targets, seperates them from their fellows, and attacks when he's got them one-on-one, knowing that he's got any given individual far outmatched. Batman doesn't believe in a fair fight; he uses trickery, as well as his unique equipment, smoke and flash powder to shape the terrain and the battlefield to his advantage. He fights in three dimensions, using his cape and grappling gun to maneuver vertically, while his foes are constrained to fighting from a single level.

 

In short, Batman fights in a way that best makes use of his advantages and capabilities, and thus the readers of Batman comic books and graphic novels, or the audiences watching Batman movies accept it when he overcomes overwhelming odds, and prevails against hordes of criminal underlings. Based on his tactics, his doctrine if you will, and the manner in which he fights them, we accept his ultimate victories as reasonable; it makes sense to us, and we like it.

 

Even when considering something that is purely fiction, purely fantastical, and requiring a great deal of suspension of disbelief, it still has to be reasonable. If it isn't reasonable, we don't accept it, don't like it, and don't recommend that our friends read the book or watch the movie.

 

What if someone wrote a book in which Batman didn't fight the way that he should? Let's call this book "Dark Knight Heresy," just for reference. Now in this book, the author has Batman walk right up the middle of the street to the front gates of The Jokers lair, in broad daylight. Batman raises his arms in the air, brandishing his .45 caliber revolver and yells out in a gravelly voice, "Come and get me!". I expect flash powder and smoke but there is none. Hundreds of bad guys pour into the mansion's courtyard, and Batman moves behind a nearby car to take cover like some cop in a bank robbery movie. The shooting starts and Batman fires back, eventually gunning down hundreds of criminals (without ever reloading, too). Hundreds of thugs have been slain or incapacitated. Batman is victorious! While I, the reader am extremely dissapointed. Sure Batman is a badass, but he couldn't defeat all of those foes, at least not like that. The author has defied all sense of reason, surpassed the limitations of our imaginations. He has "jumped the shark," as it were. Why? Because Batman isn't Superman. Batman isn't invincible; he has limitations; he can be killed. Batman cannot simply expose himself to the firepower of the enemy and hope to prevail. You and I don't accept this from the author, it isn't reasonable, based on everything that we know about Batman, we reject this, despite the fact that he is a completely imaginary character.

This brings us back, finally, to the Space Marines. They are much like Batman. They are better than ordinary humans in every way. They have the best weapons, armor, and vehicles the Imperium can provide. They are purpose built to fight and win, for the sake of the survival of humanity. However, they are not invincible. They are not invulnerable. They, like Batman, can be destroyed. To assure victory, they have to fight like Batman- this is what I was attempting to relay in my original post, and this is why your evidence was irrelevant. There are many examples of official GW publications that have Space Marines fighting "wrong", fighting just like you would expect an Imperial Guard regiment to fight, or The Joker's thugs, and winning. Using thousands against millions on a conventional battlefield and winning. It is rediculous; it is laughable, and I reject it.

 

Having rejected it, I attempted to describe how they should fight, using techniques, tactics, and a doctrine that we could reasonably expect them to survive, prevail, and have an impact in an ongoing struggle for the future of humanity that spans the galaxy.

 

In response, all you did was repetitively provide examples from Dark Heresy describing how the Word Bearers did fight and win coventionally against billions of Guardsman. This is akin to repeating the passages from Dark Knight Heresy that described how Batman beat those thugs. I didn't argue that those passages didn't exist, just that the rejection of those outlandish achievements as being one of the central tenets of my original post; which is why I said that you didn't understand me, which obviously you did not. If you did understand you would have used other arguments, which I would have duly considered, and we could have had some real meaningful dialogue on the issue. You still might not have agreed, and like I said in an earlier post, that would have been fine.

 

Best regards,

 

v

[Gree]

Your explanation is good except for two things.

 

There are many examples of official GW publications that have Space Marines fighting "wrong", fighting just like you would expect an Imperial Guard regiment to fight, or The Joker's thugs, and winning. Using thousands against millions on a conventional battlefield and winning. It is rediculous; it is laughable, and I reject it.

 

Unfourtunately that's GW's right to do it. You rejecting it is like rejecting Batman's ability to plan and take out Superpowered individuals like Darkseid. (In fact, in 40k Marines have been presented as both ''Batman'' and ''Superman''.)

 

The ''super space marine'' thing is actually the norm for marines. Those outlandish achievments are what Space Marines do in the majority of fluff. How many peices of fluff has a company of marines taking over a world? How many peices of fluff has Marines taking on massive armies that heavily outnumber them and come on top? Do I really need to pull out Codex: Ultramarines?

 

I am the one stating the norm for space marines. If anything your Marines are the ''Dark Knight Heresy'' for not following what GW's established with the norm.

 

I didn't argue that those passages didn't exist, just that the rejection of those outlandish achievements as being one of the central tenets of my original post; which is why I said that you didn't understand me, which obviously you did not.

 

Ah, here's the problem, Actually no, you never state that. Going over it you talk more about fighting styles than various differences in strength that Marines have. Maybe if you made it clearer we would have not had this. Can I suggest you go back and try to make it clearer? You talk about different fighting styles, but not different power levels.

 

I treat the two as different.

 

Let's move on please! hahaha

 

Yes, let's do this.

[dizzy-xc]

Well written, Valerian. Nicely explained. Gree also has a point, but to keep central to this treatise, and again it seems Gree missed your point, the Dark Knight movie Batman is the Batman we are talking about. Not the Batman that fights gods and superman. lol... talking about comic book heroes.

 

Valerian, never wrestle with a mud wrestler. They will drag you down in the mud and beat you with experience. Let's move on please! hahaha

[Baluc]

Gree I think you're missing point behind these stories they are one part propaganda two parts inspiring make-believe. They're aren't supposed to be taken literally.

[Rocknar]

Ask any GW Creative guy about fluff and weather it is true or not in the 40k universe. The anwer is yes, no... maybe.

 

That being said there are several things that most people do not take into account when talking about this. The main one is the strategic viability of Space Marines. A space marine takes a bolter round to the Chest and while they might be taken out of that battle(40k casulty); they will be up and fighting in 6-12 hours. A Gaurdsmen takes a Lasgun to the Chest and taken out of battle( 40k casulty); they are more then likely done as a Gaurdsmen.

 

As far as Fighting like Space marines... the rules fit pritty well but the bacic senerios in the book do not. I liked 3/4 ed where sometimes you did not have even sides. I also like the Raid senerios where one army was not "active" intill they spotted the enamy; and being killed in 1 round of HTH or killed by snipers did not spot the enamy.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

In a sense the Marine armies should be composed of infiltrating scouts, deep striking jump packs, teleporting terminators and drop podding tactical marines (with special rather than heavy weapons). They should have withdrawal options (like second edition teleporters) that allow them to achieve their objective and get the heck out again.

 

If Wolf Guard could teleport then we'd have the makings in our own list. Take a couple of drop pod dreads (Logan to free up elite slots) infiltrating scouts, drop pod terminators and grey hunters, deep striking skyclaws and Land Speeders. Don't know what would be heavy support would be. Stationary heavy weapons don't really fit the list.

[Gree]

Gree I think you're missing point behind these stories they are one part propaganda two parts inspiring make-believe. They're aren't supposed to be taken literally.

 

Actually....no.

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

 

It may, or may not be true. But essentially GW's is saying here they don't really have a concrete policy at all. Which leaves room to justify any version of Marines, like Valerian's for example. It may be true, or it may not be true.

[Baluc]

Gree I think you're missing point behind these stories they are one part propaganda two parts inspiring make-believe. They're aren't supposed to be taken literally.

 

Actually....no.

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

 

It may, or may not be true. But essentially GW's is saying here they don't really have a concrete policy at all. Which leaves room to justify any version of Marines, like Valerian's for example. It may be true, or it may not be true.

 

 

Actually yes, the whole point of the Horus Heresy novel line is to show the marine is as close to truth as possible. Even then it not actual 40K marines.

 

Dark Creed may actually be a factual recollection of events, it might be a bogus report by an inquisitor for whatever means, or an agitator trying to drum up support, who knows. But, even if it is actually factually and that's a big if, Where would a chapter find 7000 marines? And even if they managed through the combined might of no less than 7 full chapters how much imperial space is being left to the guard to defend without aid, look at the results of the 13th crusade the gate still stands but the rest of the area got beat.

 

Regardless of this one piece of dubious fiction, its far more likely to believe parts of the ragnar blackman series where the main battle line consisted of guard, and there were marines all about the planet carrying out missions beyond the scope or abilities of the guardsmen ie; recapturing shrines, killing prominent commanders, or agitators, taking out non-main line artillery, city breaches, infitration, etc. I've yet to read a novel were marines willing choose to frontal assault with all there resources, it irresponsible, and the few times they do so, its in desperation. Like stopping the completion of a chaos ritual, or the escape of a rouge Governor...

 

Hell, even looking at their equipment none of it is meant for prolonged war-far. Everything is built to move, the one av14 tank is actually a mobile fortress! Nothing says stationary, its one of the reasons why when ever you read about marines desperately holding a line, they aren't built for it, they are however built to smash through hard and fast get the job done and get out before they're surrounded. Marines or not an earthshaker round gets the job done. Its one of the reasons why I wish you could take a veteran squad as an hq choice, or even a veteran sergeant, a chapter one has what 5 main battle captains, what are the odds there everywhere at one?

[Gree]

Actually yes, the whole point of the Horus Heresy novel line is to show the marine is as close to truth as possible. Even then it not actual 40K marines.

 

No, not really nothing makes the Horus Heresy more realistic.

 

 

Dark Creed may actually be a factual recollection of events, it might be a bogus report by an inquisitor for whatever means, or an agitator trying to drum up support, who knows. But, even if it is actually factually and that's a big if, Where would a chapter find 7000 marines?

 

 

That's not the point, I was talking about a Word Bearers crusade. Not to mention we have Marines coming together in crusades before.

 

 

I've yet to read a novel were marines willing choose to frontal assault with all there resources, it irresponsible, and the few times they do so, its in desperation.

 

Storm of Iron comes to mind.....

 

Hell, even looking at their equipment none of it is meant for prolonged war-far. Everything is built to move, the one av14 tank is actually a mobile fortress! Nothing says stationary, its one of the reasons why when ever you read about marines desperately holding a line, they aren't built for it, they are however built to smash through hard and fast get the job done and get out before they're surrounded.

 

Have you ever heard to tarantula sentry guns? Or the Imperial Fists in general? Maybe the Iron Warriors? Seige of Badab?

[Legatus]

Somehow I do not understand the motivation for the original post.

 

1. Space Marine armies have had the option for a full scale orbital landing force since 3rd Edition. In 3rd Edition that was the option to simply deep strike everything (via "imagined" drop pods, with a limitation on Tanks), and since 4th Edition it has been actual drop pods for almost every unit, even though there was no affordable model till 5th Edition.

 

2. That is exactly how the background describes Space Marines to operate. Though they will often also engage ground forces, once their command and morale have been severely weakened through surgical strikes. Space Martines excell at decisive surgical strikes, but they also have the capability to outfight ground forces considerably larger than they are.

 

3. The "Warhammer 40,000" game system is about squad level combat, where two ground forces meet. It has no place for flyers, titans, long range artillery and the like, but it is suitable for tanks and recon vehicles. Naturally the forces used in the Warhammer 40,000 game are basic ground forces, and not usually of the aforementioned kind.

[dizzy-xc]

"...It has no place for flyers, titans, long range artillery and the like, but it is suitable for tanks and recon vehicles. Naturally the forces used in the Warhammer 40,000 game are basic ground forces, and not usually of the aforementioned kind.

 

So you are saying 40k has no place for the following:

 

• 1. Boarding Torpedoes
  2. Space to ground transports/gunships
  a. IG Valkyrie type flyers
  b. Vulture Gunships
  c. Land Speeder Tempests
  d. Land Speeder Storm general transports (not just scouts)
  e. Arvus/Tantalus Landers
  3. Across the board teleportation and or teleport pods
  4. Everything should be drop poddable
  5. More mobility choices, ie., jump packs, land speeders, etc.
  

[Legatus]

So you are saying 40k has no place for the following:

 

1. Boarding Torpedoes yes

2. Space to ground transports/gunships yes

a. IG Valkyrie type flyers yes

b. Vulture Gunships yes

c. Land Speeder Tempests no

d. Land Speeder Storm general transports (not just scouts) no

e. Arvus/Tantalus Landers yes

3. Across the board teleportation and or teleport pods no

4. Everything should be drop poddable no

5. More mobility choices, ie., jump packs, land speeders, etc. what?

 

Small scouting skimmers are fine. Flyers of a certain size have no place in 40K, which does not stop Forgeworld or even GW to release models for them, obviously. IG has had long range artillery since 2nd Edition, which should not be part of any force that is voluntarily engaging enemy forces.

Drop pods are fun to use, though I would have preferred if they were for special drop style missions as they were in 3rd Edition. 40K still is about ground force engagements, and dropping in one or two squads while the rest is already present seems odd.

There once was a purpose to the force organisation chart. For some army lists GW loses sight of that purpose and just puts units into whatever slot they want. If you wnat an all fast attack Space Marine force, talk to your opponent about it whether he is up for such a game. For standard pick up games I prefer the more balanced armies that are coinstructed with the force organisation plan.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I have only breezed over the topic, and am probably posting prematurely, but.... How about using the Daemonic assault rules for SM?

 

The random bit would stop if being too powerful. Or you could put all your force into the 3+ half and take the chance of all coming down on T1....

 

Another thing, I would like to see Drop Pod Assault be 'up to half the pods come in on T1' that would give an option....