Anyone using Sky/Swiftclaws?

[Thunderpup]

Anyone using skyclaws or swiftclaws? The jump packers seem cool, but that ws3 bs3 kinda puts me off.

 

Opinions?

[Max_Dammit]

Just make sure to attack only things you know you'll kill in 1 turn, or have some backup close by, or use them as a counter charge/backup unit.

 

 

Putting in a WG with a nice frost axe will help putting in the hurt to, that combined with the twin link rappit fire bolters and heavy bolter from the almost mandatory attack bike will soften up most targets, so it should work for most infantry units.

[Brother Anchelos]

First of all. If you take more than 7 - the Wolf Priest is a must-have. Making them Fearless and giving them preferred enemy makes all the difference. WS3 is painful but against Marines and other more elite armies they would hit on 4+ nevertheless (and still you have a re-roll form Preferred Enemy), so the only drawback of this is against IG or Tau. I don't count orks 'cause if Skyclaws don't kill enough of them on the charge they will be dead soon enough. :P Playing with them also requires some degree of being careful and cover-seeking - any Leman Russ or Artillery is their mortal enemy. ;)

It's also a nice squad when taken as a 5 to carry a meltagun or a flamer and just to abuse the enemy a little. Here they destroy a smaller tank, or slay enemy squad of small or medium power.

Hope that helps.

-Anchelos

[CainTheHunter]

Putting in a WG with a nice frost axe will help putting in the hurt to, that combined with the twin link rappit fire bolters and heavy bolter from the almost mandatory attack bike will soften up most targets, so it should work for most infantry units.

 

Too bad WG can't join them.

[Thunderpup]

Putting in a WG with a nice frost axe will help putting in the hurt to, that combined with the twin link rappit fire bolters and heavy bolter from the almost mandatory attack bike will soften up most targets, so it should work for most infantry units.

 

Too bad WG can't join them.

 

I think he was referring to Swiftclaws

[CainTheHunter]

Oh, yes indeed. Sorry ;) - I sort of skipped over the reference to twin linked bolters :P. Skyclaws might be interesting - I've never tried them actually, but bikers will have more punch definately - I was playing bike heavy 13th company list a couple of years ago, but that's a different story. With bikes You have to decided whether You want to go antitank, or harass the enemy - You can't do both tasks with the same unit effectively.

[Max_Dammit]

Putting a melta bomb on the WG will kill most stationary tanks, and most CC hit on armour 10 so your normal CC weapons will kil them to, just dont charge a LR :)

[nurglespuss]

on the sky claws it really doesnt't matter. I use them frequently. Your still hitting pretty much everything on a 4+ and with that number of attacks, thats more than good enough!

[Stormbrow II]

While they are certainly cheaper, they simply don't compare to TWC.

 

For any sizeable unit you will need a Wolf Priest in order to negate the WS 3. Hitting the enemy isn't a problem - being hit back is. Most things will hit your Claws on a 3+ which means they will take 16% more hits than a Grey Hunter squad would. This will often be enough to swing combat in favour of your opponent and spells trouble for your guys. Adding a WP (in order to get the re-rolls that will enable you to kill enough enemies to ensure you win combat) means that you must spent at least 100 points (plus JP or Bike) and adds a kill point to the unit making it an attractive proposition for your opponent to shoot at. While Fearless will negate a Morale Check it does make it quite expensive to have enough bodies to be able to survive more than 1 turns' shooting.

 

The major difference between Sky Claws and Swiftclaws is survivability - the Toughness boost and better weaponry (twin-linked bolters vs pistols) means that the squad of bikers will be able to kill more enemies at a distance and take less damage in combat. This is not to mention the opportunity to turbo-boost in order to line up a second turn assault. Even the round of shooting beforehand can be a problem - due to the Headstrong rule you cannot shoot ranged weapons if the squad is within assault range. This isn't much of a problem for Skyclaws but removes a good bonus of the Swiftclaws and means that the other ranged options are almost rendered pointless: you can never get the extra D6 on armour pen rolls with a Meltagun in these squads if there isn't an Indy Character with the squad.

 

The main downside these units have compared to the TWC is the lack of wound allocation which keeps your men alive and doesn't require you take a Morale test as early as it does for the Claws units. Added to this is the arguably greater mobility of the Cav - with an average reach of 21" (roll a 3 for fleet) they can threaten units that are further away. Finally the other major difference is the fact they won't embarrassingly keel over when they trip themselves up on a branch... ;)

 

3 TWC with one of them with a S10 power fist costs 175 points

 

5 Skyclaws with a S8 power fist costs 115

Wolf Priest with Jump Pack costs 125 (?)

 

5 Swiftclaws with S8 power fist costs 150

Wolf Priest on bike costs 135

 

The Wolf Priest uses up points that I can spend on a Rune Priest, or more favourably, another troops choice or support unit that will keep my other units alive e.g. Long Fangs.

 

To answer your question: Not any more.

[Wildfire]

I think bikers are just fine. Jumppackers have suffered in this edition in general, and BC jumppackers are difficult to justify with no WG option. That doesn't mean they're no good, but they're not awesome. With no WG option and not being scoring, they really should be cheaper.

[DerekLee688]

The WG Battle Leader sounds like a good option for either squad if you like to go for less HQ and more army. WGBL+frost weapon+Jump pack/bike=Cheap high Int. leash holder that free's up points for that Typhoon or second/third MM/HF land speeder.

[styx]

Played against a large unit of Swiftclaws this past weekend in a tournament. Had one attack bike with a MM, one melta gun, power fist, melta bombs, Wolf Guard on bike with power weapon. Very expensive unit.

 

Mission required him to deep strike all of his army as he was the attacker. (special mission written for the event). He lost one bike rolling a 1 when he hit scenery.

 

They boosted and went into my lines (I had IG), went into them with a Demolisher and a Chimera with vets armed with melta guns. Took out a good # of his bikes. Then the Attack bike blew up the Demolisher. Then they stunned the Manticore (only a few bikes left and he rolled badly). Then when I tore him down to a single attack bike he was able to down a Chimera with a command squad inside to allow his Thunder Wolf squad to kill them.

 

They died rather quickly for thier cost in my opinion but they did show promise and they did some some damage before their death, almost earning their points. 55pt Chimera and 195pt Demolisher.

[Bulweih]

Hey there,

 

I use both packtypes as I collect Ragnar's Greatcompany.

In Games of 2k+ I usually use a pack of skyclaws-7, MotW, Flamer. They are used for Infantryhunts or troopherding and they work out just fine. Of course I have a WP attached, using a flamer to further increase my shooting output has proved itself, too.

They get a nice toll from shooting and their charge is already well respected in our circle. Getting shot down before reaching sth. valuable is a problem, but it's usually no big deal to land them in cover once, before you reach the foe.

 

As for my swiftclawpack, it consists of 7 Bikers and an attackbike, led by a WG with TH+SS. They have the option of antitank with MM and Melter or same as the skyclaws with HB and Flamer.

Allthough they have BS 3, the antitank SwiftC, at least score one melterhit per S-Phase. They cost a lot, but are always worth their cost in return and a hell lot of fun :( .

And the the anti-infantry version is just devastating. Last match I had pts. to spare, so I decided to also attach a WP, just for fun's sake. What shall I say, it was a lot of fun for me and my side :).

[Wolf Lord Karulfr]

I really love the look of both units but I haven't had the money to buy bikes or assault marines yet to add my leftover wolfy-bits. I'm probably going to use a unit of 5 Skyclaws to harass my opponent's flank or contest objectives. I probably won't kit them out for shooting though.

 

As for bikes, they're probably later down the line for me as I'm building my force slowly.

[ChainsawDR]

While they are certainly cheaper, they simply don't compare to TWC.

 

For any sizeable unit you will need a Wolf Priest in order to negate the WS 3. Hitting the enemy isn't a problem - being hit back is. Most things will hit your Claws on a 3+ which means they will take 16% more hits than a Grey Hunter squad would. This will often be enough to swing combat in favour of your opponent and spells trouble for your guys. Adding a WP (in order to get the re-rolls that will enable you to kill enough enemies to ensure you win combat) means that you must spent at least 100 points (plus JP or Bike) and adds a kill point to the unit making it an attractive proposition for your opponent to shoot at. While Fearless will negate a Morale Check it does make it quite expensive to have enough bodies to be able to survive more than 1 turns' shooting.

 

The major difference between Sky Claws and Swiftclaws is survivability - the Toughness boost and better weaponry (twin-linked bolters vs pistols) means that the squad of bikers will be able to kill more enemies at a distance and take less damage in combat. This is not to mention the opportunity to turbo-boost in order to line up a second turn assault. Even the round of shooting beforehand can be a problem - due to the Headstrong rule you cannot shoot ranged weapons if the squad is within assault range. This isn't much of a problem for Skyclaws but removes a good bonus of the Swiftclaws and means that the other ranged options are almost rendered pointless: you can never get the extra D6 on armour pen rolls with a Meltagun in these squads if there isn't an Indy Character with the squad.

 

The main downside these units have compared to the TWC is the lack of wound allocation which keeps your men alive and doesn't require you take a Morale test as early as it does for the Claws units. Added to this is the arguably greater mobility of the Cav - with an average reach of 21" (roll a 3 for fleet) they can threaten units that are further away. Finally the other major difference is the fact they won't embarrassingly keel over when they trip themselves up on a branch... rolleyes.gif

 

3 TWC with one of them with a S10 power fist costs 175 points

 

5 Skyclaws with a S8 power fist costs 115

Wolf Priest with Jump Pack costs 125 (?)

 

5 Swiftclaws with S8 power fist costs 150

Wolf Priest on bike costs 135

 

The Wolf Priest uses up points that I can spend on a Rune Priest, or more favourably, another troops choice or support unit that will keep my other units alive e.g. Long Fangs.

 

To answer your question: Not any more.

 

There are some really good points here, some that I hadn't considered before. One thing that I did notice though...

 

you can never get the extra D6 on armour pen rolls with a Meltagun in these squads if there isn't an Indy Character with the squad.

 

You can if you attach a WG with a Combi-Melta as this negates headstrong - also chucking on a PF means you don't suffer a lost attack as well. One thing that really puts me off TWC, and I think it's a very important point is this...

 

You can move 21" - IF you are charging. The 12" charge makes the Thuderwolf movement seem greater than it is - it sounds silly but the 12" charge only comes into play when its actually charging - getting into charge range is really slow, and isn't going to reach a gunline before being shot up. Nothing worse than positioning 1st and then getting the tape measure out and only moving 6" then a run. I didn't post on this thread to bash them though, I'm going to give them a go at some point as they have alot of really good qualities.

 

Back to the original question - I'm running a Wolf Priest with a 10 man Skyclaw pack (flamer, MotW, PF) which I'm sorry to say never earns their points back and so I'm swapping them out (which is a great shame as I've painted all the models now). Everything else in my army is aboard a transport so these puppies get singled out and killed early on, no matter the cover I put them in.

 

I've now changed my army list and bought some bikes and an attack bike and I'm half way through painting a swiftclaw squad that consists of:

 

Wolf Priest on Bike

WG on bike with Combi-M and PF

4x Swiftclaws (1 with PF)

1x Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter.

 

I'm really excited about using them, the turbo boost grants a 3+ inv save and more importantly gets them into position quickly, and T5 is going to make them so much harder to kill, but I'm ONLY planning on using them against infantry, not anti tank at all - here's why...

 

A swiftclaw pack like this rerolls all its Bolter shots in the shooting phase, and all of their hits in the assault phase - plus the bolters can rapid fire.

 

Thats 14 re-rolling bolter shots and 3 Heavy Bolter shots before they even get into combat where there's 6 PF, 4 PW and 17 attacks that all re-roll. The rerolling bolter fire is something that both the TWC and Skyclaws can't offer, and if Tanks are targetted then it takes away this unique selling point of the swiftclaws. More shots in the shooting phase = less models to strike back in combat, and the bikes make it harder for those that do strike back to wound.

 

I've also got a Pred, ML Long Fangs, Vindicator and a Living Lightning Rune Priest supporting them to pop the transports so the Swiftclaws can kill the troops. The combi-M on the WG is there as a very last resort if these all fail.

 

I've not managed to field them yet, but as I said I'm really excited by the prospect and on paper they look so very much better than the Skyclaws, and slightly more mobile than the TWC. I hope they'll be a core part of the army ongoing.

 

Cheers

 

ChainsawDR

[TheLastHuzzah]

I've personally used them twice with JP no bikes yet, I haven't made a final determination yet, but I want to say my thoughts are positive.

 

The first game was vs. BA 8 sky claws MotW, PF & WGBL with TH/SS/WTN, in a hybrid mech/pod army. I elected to keep them in reserve, but they didn't come in till the 4th turn when they basically commenced drinking and screaming "We would have got you, if everything else didn't get there first!" All they really did was clean up a 3 man tac squad and beat on an immobilized weaponless dread. I'm sure they would done well against the DC that got stuck in with my GH for a round or two but they weren't in the vicinity.

 

The second game they shined as a distraction, it was a 2 on 2 guard & SM vs. SM & SW. Same pod/mech list. it was a seize ground with 4 objectives. I lined up my stay at home GH in a ruin (holding 1 objective) with the SC on the left flank heading across the field. Opposing those two squads was an IG vet squad and the scary plasma cannon Leman Russ (soo many painful templates). 3 turns and 6 dead SC later the WGBL, MotW, & PF hit the Leman russ, destroying it. Had the IG player not been freaked out by the SC, he could have probably taken the GH down; I think I had 7 of the 11 (WGBL included) left at the end of the match.

 

I have yet to run them with a WP, but it actually would have been a cheaper option in both lists.

 

Draw your own opinions of course, but people know what charging blood claws are capable of and they are quite good at drawing a disproportionate amount of fire power due to the threat they pose.

 

Cheers,

 

Huzzah

[Marek Grimfang]

Swift Claws I have not used - in any edition of our army, so I have no idea. I see BC's no more than power armored Scouts with a bit more jazz.

 

BC's are a good clearing unit to dispatch your opponent who is holding or contesting an objective. I add a WGL to ensure they stay put afterwards.

 

Sky Claws, I would use them the same way, just getting their faster, but with the non-ability to add a WGL, you have to know what you are getting into.

[SamaNagol]

Anything Sky Claws can do, TWC do better.

[LorgarXVII17]

My Skyclaws have actually been tearing up some nids the past few days. I do make sure to keep them near some Blood Claws because with their stats usually they need a little backup.

 

They did however perform nicely in taking out an opponents termagaunt horde of about 20ish models.

[Skirnir Ragefang]

I'm thinking about using a small unit of bikers to blow up tanks. 4 Bikes, Melta, Attack Bike with multimelta, wolfguard with combimelta and powerfist. Have to playtest it agains my buddies IG. I'd like to go with Land Speeders instead, but i don't have any. But there are lots of bikes from my old SpaceWolf Battle forces.

[LorgarXVII17]

I'm thinking about using a small unit of bikers to blow up tanks. 4 Bikes, Melta, Attack Bike with multimelta, wolfguard with combimelta and powerfist. Have to playtest it agains my buddies IG. I'd like to go with Land Speeders instead, but i don't have any. But there are lots of bikes from my old SpaceWolf Battle forces.

 

Bikes are a good choice, they have served me very well. They are great vehicle killers.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Anything Sky Claws can do, TWC do better.

 

I'm not sure. I'd say anything sky claws can do, swift claws can do better. Sky claws just suffer too much from having no leader, and being forced to take an expensive HQ unlikee the swiftclaws is the final nail in the coffin for me.

 

TWC I see more as a mobile counter assault unit. The lack of 12" move does limit them to only popping out when the enemy is closer, or perhaps starting from reserve.

[Skirax]

I use Swiftclaws more and more these days, purely because they are one-hit wonders. They zoom forward, kill, then get killed. If their lucky, they'll nab a few more numbers from the enemy before they die.

[nurglespuss]

I've had a unit of 5 sky claws, with wolfguard battle leader (lightning claws) charge and take out a unit of 30boys in 2 turns. The ammount of dice is worth it.

[Stormbrow II]

You can if you attach a WG with a Combi-Melta as this negates headstrong - also chucking on a PF means you don't suffer a lost attack as well

You can but that is adding another slot to the unit (Elites) and forces you to spend approx. 80 points to get a single meltagun shot on a single wound model? No thanks. I'd rather buy more Grey Hunters or a transport or 2. Another thing to consider is that Wolf Guard can't join the Skyclaws so you are forced to have an IC with them.

 

You can move 21" - IF you are charging. The 12" charge makes the Thuderwolf movement seem greater than it is - it sounds silly but the 12" charge only comes into play when its actually charging - getting into charge range is really slow, and isn't going to reach a gunline before being shot up. Nothing worse than positioning 1st and then getting the tape measure out and only moving 6" then a run. I didn't post on this thread to bash them though, I'm going to give them a go at some point as they have alot of really good qualities.

You make a very valid point - they are on average slower than the bikers. This is tempered by the fact that TWC have 2 wounds and base T5 each which shouldn't be underestimated: it's great fun when an enemy with a S8 fist inflicts 2 wounds on your TWC and suffers another 5 S10 attacks on his precious unit because you can use wound allocation to make the non-fist wearers take the pain. And not keel over. :P

 

The apparent lack of mobility is arguable - TWC can move through terrain without dicking themselves royally. And they can benefit from a cover save while they're at it. While it might let you down sometimes, getting 2D6 x 2" for their assault makes them surprisingly swift. There is also the bonus that will get a cover save if 50% of the unit is in cover so they don't even need to move through terrain - moving behind Rhinos until they're read to assault is another tactic and something that I'm fond of.

 

If you are going to try them I'll strongly suggest taking more than 1 unit because that one unit will draw fire like no-one's business and they fall over surprisingly fast to massed bolters.

 

Anything Sky Claws can do, TWC do better.

Sky Claws < Swift Claws < TWC.