Pre-heresy Legion Organisation

[Dosjetka]

Hello folks!

 

Well I'm in the process of getting together bits and bobs for another of my projects: a pre-heresy Luna Wolves and Emperor's Children detachment.

I would like to know what kind of organisation they both had. I know some of this is mentionned in the HH series but for the moment I don't have the spare cash to get them, so it would be great if people who have read these books or know anything about the Legions' organisation could help!

 

I await your answers!

 

BBL

[Martellus]

+++BBL,

 

Try this link from Bell of Lost Souls. Pretty informative and a good place to start unless you already have this.

 

Martellus+++

[Dosjetka]

thank you Martellus. I didn't have that yet. Is there any mention of the organisation of the Legions in Collected Visions of the Horus Heresy by Allan Merrett? It's the only HH source book I have and it will be my main inspiration for conversions, etc...

 

BBL

 

Edit: No much mention of organisation in that pdf...oh well, thank you anyway. there are a few good and helpful things in it :P

[Legatus]

When Guilliman established the new organisation for Space Marine forces, he did not came up with a completely new structure but used already known formations. Some Legions were already using "Chapters", eac hChapter being divided into several companies. For example, a Legion of 10,000 men would have had 10 Chapters, with 10 companies each. Not all Legions used these formations. Some used "Grand Companies" or other formations, and they may have had a different size. At least for the Iron Warriors we know that each of their Grand Companies was also 1,000 members strong.

 

The Luna Wolves and the Emperor's Children were similar in their approaches to the Ultramarines (flexible and well organised forces, able to deal with any situation), so I would assume that they were similar in organisation to them, as that would have been the optimal formation for such an approach. They might not have used the term "Chapter", but they probably were organised into formations of 1,000, each in turn divided into sub-sections of 100.

[Dosjetka]

ok thank you Legatus.

another question: did they have chaplains and librarians? in my knowledge they came later on and so at the beginning they only had captains. can anybody confirm/contradict this?

 

BBL

[jipimus]

As all the legions where originally terran and set up by the big E and high lords we could assume they would follw the same template as eachother, which as we know has typically been based on the roman legion template (100 per company etc) with number of companies dependant upon numbers of marines inducted. We could also assume that until they encountered thier respective primarch and started to induct natives the template would remain unchanged until such a time that local traditions etc altered the make up of the legion with the greatest variance being with the older legions. On the other hand we have the emperors children who had damaged geneseed until Fulgrim was discovered there was very few of them and may have only consisted of a couple of companies.

[Dosjetka]

thanks jipimus, but i would like to make them as they are after re-uniting with their primarch. so can i do it my own way or is there any fluff that states what organisation those two legions had in between the re-uniting and the heresy? (more specifically before the time where Horus changed the name of his legion)

[Ensis Ferrae]

i believe that the Luna Wolves were organized purely by company. They had slightly larger companies, and IIRC, there were around 25 or so companies.

 

The Emperor's Children, IIRC, had Eidolon and the other guy (whose name escapes me) as being the highest commanders within the legion, and within those 2 halves of the legion, you had all the companies. The EC were even more Rigidly roman than even the Ultramarines, and had probably the strictest, set in stone chain of command.

[Dosjetka]

hm...ok. so would approx. 500 marines per company (for Luna Wolves) and about 1000 marines in a EC company sound ok or is that too mnay/not enough?

and my question about libbies and chappies hasn't been answered yet...would anybody know anything about them?

 

thanks for your help,

 

BBL

[Ensis Ferrae]

IIRC, there WERE librarians and chaplains in the Legions, just not in quite the same role as in the 41st millenium. The few legions that spring to mind whose chaplains and libbies performed much the same roles as their modern counterparts were the Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers.

 

As far as company sizes in the 2 legions you're after, i guess those would be some good round numbers for company sizes, though i think it might be abit high for the Emperors Children. i Think that they would have had a setup similar to the modern military Division Commander>Brigade Commanders>Company Commanders type thing, where Eidolon and the other one were brigade commanders, Fulgrim being Division, and then a bunch more company commanders.

[Dosjetka]

Hm...so are you saying that the other legions didn't have Libbies and Chappies or that they had limited access to them?

 

Ok so if they had approx. 750-800 EC's per company would that be ok? I agree with you on the organisation part but I would change the names to something else <_<

Another thing, would the Commanders each have a retinue/honour guard/command squad or would only the highest up have those or no one at all?

 

BBL

[Ensis Ferrae]

Hm...so are you saying that the other legions didn't have Libbies and Chappies or that they had limited access to them?

 

no, what im trying to say is that, many PH legions, while they had librarians, i havent seen too much that says that they were psykers, with the major exception of the Thousand Sons. And the Chaplains didnt hold control of the Legion's Religion, as before the heresy, and subsequent fall to Chaos for half of them, there WAS no religion.

[Pacific81]

Hey there BBL :)

 

Regarding Chaplains, there is evidence that at least some of the Legions had them: For example, Charmosean(?) the Emperor's Children Chaplain who meets his demise at the hands of Lucius in Fulgrim. I can recall a picture of a Blood Angels Chaplain in Collected Visions. Personally, I would take PH Chaplains as a case-by-case basis, other than those mentioned you would have to use your own judgement as to whether you think they would suit the character of the Legion.

 

As for Librarians, this is somewhat more complex. There is a quote in False Gods which says about all of the Legions have Librarians within their ranks, prior to the Council of Nikaea. However, Collected Visions states that Corax and Rogal Dorn refused to field them in their forces, and Mortarion had also forbid their use. Russ also viewed them with great suspicion.

 

There is also an old piece of fluff which says that the World Eaters killed all of their Librarians as part of their pact with Khorne, and so you have to summise that they were still part of the Legion right up until the assault on Terra.

 

So, Librarians are a valid component of a force right up to the Council of Nikaea, although apparently A Thousand Sons might retcon this and have just 'Sorcery' banned by the Emperor but Librarians and use of psychic powers still permissible.

[Vodunius]

Way out of date and retconned to oblivion but the heresy era organisation from WD126 is still my favourite:

 

A company was comprised of 3 detachments*, the company commander was simply a member of one of his subordinate detachments.

A battalion was comprised of 3 companies plus 3 extra detachments, the battalion commander had his own elite 10-man assault squad which was mounted in a Land Raider (there were also 2 recon land speeders attached to the battalion command).

A "chapter" (modern parlance) was comprised of 3 battalions plus 6 extra detachments, the regimental commander was part of a 5-man terminator squad.

 

* detachment size:

Tactical = 40 marines + 2 "commanders"

Assault & Devastator = 20 marines + 1 "commander"

Terminator = 20 marines

Support Weapons, Dreadnoughts & Robots = 5 guns/dreads/robots

Vehicles = 2 Land Raiders or 3 other vehicles

Bikes = 10 bikes

Land Speeders = 5 regular or 2 recon

Capitol Imperialis (the only super heavy available to the Astartes, at the time the transport and offensive capabilities were akin to the Storm Lord)

 

The generic legion organisation in the Horus Heresy artbooks is:

Regiment = 2 Battalions, commanded by a Commander.

Battalion = 5 Companies, commanded by a Lieutenant-Commander.

Company = 100 marines, commanded by a Captain.

 

Regiment was the generic term used, with Chapter/Great Company/Wing being listed as alternatives. Regiment was also the term used in WD126, although that was because in those days Chapter & Legion were interchangeable both pre & post heresy.

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

So, Librarians are a valid component of a force right up to the Council of Nikaea, although apparently A Thousand Sons might retcon this and have just 'Sorcery' banned by the Emperor but Librarians and use of psychic powers still permissible.

 

What he said.

 

Look at it this way,Guilliman wouldn't have included them in his Codex organisation if it would be against the Emperor's will and edicts.

 

 

Cheers! ;)

[Vodunius]

Personally I prefer the idea of Librarians being banned at Nikaea then having something dramatic change the Emperors mind ~ I think they really missed the boat by retconning the Imperial Fist Terminator who sacrificed himself to save the Emperor into a Custode instead of an former Librarian.

[Ensis Ferrae]

Personally I prefer the idea of Librarians being banned at Nikaea then having something dramatic change the Emperors mind ~ I think they really missed the boat by retconning the Imperial Fist Terminator who sacrificed himself to save the Emperor into a Custode instead of an former Librarian.

 

IMHO, the ban on "librarians" after Nikaea, would have eliminated the psykers within the Librarian corps of a legion, but someone still needed to maintain/create chapter/legion records right?? unless this is what the "Remebrancer" corps was supposed to do, seeing as how the marines were too "busy" to be writing a journal or whatnot.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Personally I prefer the idea of Librarians being banned at Nikaea then having something dramatic change the Emperors mind ~ I think they really missed the boat by retconning the Imperial Fist Terminator who sacrificed himself to save the Emperor into a Custode instead of an former Librarian.

 

IMHO, the ban on "librarians" after Nikaea, would have eliminated the psykers within the Librarian corps of a legion, but someone still needed to maintain/create chapter/legion records right?? unless this is what the "Remebrancer" corps was supposed to do, seeing as how the marines were too "busy" to be writing a journal or whatnot.

 

 

There was no ban on Librarians, there was a ban on sorcery. Librarians weren't seen as sorcerors, I don't remember what they were seen as but they were widely accepted. There is a more recent piece of fluff (in codex: Chaos Space Marines) saying how most of the renegade librarians were from the original legions that rebeled, save for those who were butchered by the World Eaters as a bloody sacrifice to Khorne, who hates all practicioners of sorcery.

[Dosjetka]

Hey there BBL ;)

 

Regarding Chaplains, there is evidence that at least some of the Legions had them: For example, Charmosean(?) the Emperor's Children Chaplain who meets his demise at the hands of Lucius in Fulgrim. I can recall a picture of a Blood Angels Chaplain in Collected Visions. Personally, I would take PH Chaplains as a case-by-case basis, other than those mentioned you would have to use your own judgement as to whether you think they would suit the character of the Legion.

 

As for Librarians, this is somewhat more complex. There is a quote in False Gods which says about all of the Legions have Librarians within their ranks, prior to the Council of Nikaea. However, Collected Visions states that Corax and Rogal Dorn refused to field them in their forces, and Mortarion had also forbid their use. Russ also viewed them with great suspicion.

 

There is also an old piece of fluff which says that the World Eaters killed all of their Librarians as part of their pact with Khorne, and so you have to summise that they were still part of the Legion right up until the assault on Terra.

 

So, Librarians are a valid component of a force right up to the Council of Nikaea, although apparently A Thousand Sons might retcon this and have just 'Sorcery' banned by the Emperor but Librarians and use of psychic powers still permissible.

Hey Pacific81,

 

Hm...I don't think that I'll include Chaplains in my PH force, even though it would be nice, as it was pointed out that they have no religion to follow so why would Chaplains be used before Nikea? (Malcador created the Chaplain corps in the legions after the Emperor's retreat to Terra).

 

Ok, but I'm not going to do those legions (yet ;) ) so I'll include at least one in my force.

 

Ok, so World Eaters had Librarians before...but the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Death Guard didn't and the Space Wolves weren't likely to have any. Could I include Librarians into the non-Librarian legions as characters that hang around to record deeds without Psy powers or not? (it makes it more fluffy ;)...but should invent some rules for them or use someone elses?)

 

The generic legion organisation in the Horus Heresy artbooks is:

Regiment = 2 Battalions, commanded by a Commander.

Battalion = 5 Companies, commanded by a Lieutenant-Commander.

Company = 100 marines, commanded by a Captain.

I prefer this one...it's less complicated :P

 

Personally I prefer the idea of Librarians being banned at Nikaea then having something dramatic change the Emperors mind ~ I think they really missed the boat by retconning the Imperial Fist Terminator who sacrificed himself to save the Emperor into a Custode instead of an former Librarian.

I'm so with you on this one :)

 

MHO, the ban on "librarians" after Nikaea, would have eliminated the psykers within the Librarian corps of a legion, but someone still needed to maintain/create chapter/legion records right?? unless this is what the "Remebrancer" corps was supposed to do, seeing as how the marines were too "busy" to be writing a journal or whatnot.

They were probably just banned in using psy powers and stayed within the legions to record deeds, keep the archives, etc...btw, what is the "Remebrancer" corps?

 

There was no ban on Librarians, there was a ban on sorcery. Librarians weren't seen as sorcerors, I don't remember what they were seen as but they were widely accepted.

IIRC there was a ban on all use of psy powers, and so sorcery.

 

Thanks to all of you for your replies ;)

 

BBL

[Pacific81]

As I said in my previous post, apparently the issue of the Council of Nikaea is going to be ratified in A Thousand Sons, with the edict just banning Sorcery as opposed to the use of psychic powers so presumably the Librarians would still have been kicking around.

[Dosjetka]

Hm...ok, thanks for that Pacific81

 

BBL

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

As I said in my previous post, apparently the issue of the Council of Nikaea is going to be ratified in A Thousand Sons, with the edict just banning Sorcery as opposed to the use of psychic powers so presumably the Librarians would still have been kicking around.

 

 

Thats because if they didn't, it would contradict a lot of fluff, not the least that in the Dark Angels part of the Horus Heresy.

[Dosjetka]

I didn't get the thing about the DA...sorry. Would you mind making it a bit clearer please.

 

thanks,

 

BBL