Grey Knights are horribly underpriced!

[Mystic Lemur]

Long story short, I was comparing a few things from the DH codex to my beloved DA codex, and wow:

 

(Banhammer my post if I violate any points posting rules, please)

PAGK vs. DA Tactical Marines- If you take 10 models, factor in the DA cost for stormbolters on every model and a PW on the sgt, you are left with paying 4.5 points per model for S6, WS5, and all the GK special rules. Not to mention, you have the option of taking two special or heavy weapons!

 

GKT vs. Deathwing- For 30 points more you trade 8 S8 and 2 S4 attacks for 11 WS5 S6 I4 attacks. GK also have the option of fielding 40 terminators, which is very comparable to the possible 46 DA termis.

 

And as for HQ choices, sure Belial gives us scoring termis but that's the best that can be said for him. :fakenopic: GK get the choice of going light with the BC or going all out with the GM. And the GM is like a Belial-Ezekial lovechild that is better than both parents put together!

 

You can see why I'm posting this here instead of the DA forums, it's kind of depressing. ;)

 

Edit: Forgot to count Belial as a Terminator.

[Gentlemanloser]

Terminator Apothecary, and an extra Apocthecary per command Squad. Oh and Rhinos and Teleport Assault, with Scout Moving Bike that have Teleport Homers.

 

:P

 

GK also have the option of fielding 40 terminators, which is very comparable to the possible 45 DA termis.

 

If you take Stern, that's a total of 52. Then three more for Inquisitors in TDA.

 

But that ignores the two manditory Troop choices we'd still have to take, unlike the Deathwing.

 

Edit: PADA get Frags and Kraks for free don't they?

[Mystic Lemur]

Mea culpa. I can't believe I forgot Apothecaries ;)

 

I had always thought Stern counted against the 0-1 limit, but I took another look at the FAQ and found the truth, however I hardly consider an Inquisitor in TDA armour to be a real Termi; I always thought of it as more of a "that looks cool, give me one" kind of thing (no offense). I still only come up with 50, though. Don't the HQ choices take the place of the regular Brother Captain in the retinue squads? Better yet, play Deathwing with GK allies so you could have 61. =P

 

Forgot the free grenades, but that still puts you spending around 7 points per model more. Granted you give up rhinos (who's idea was that anyway?) which is a big hit, but manageable. More than made up for, IMHO, by the ability to take two psycannon. (Can you give the Justicar one, making 3? Edit: No, unless you take Artificer armor, :cuss page 16?) It's a Heavy Bolter w/ psycannon bolts that can still fire at half range if it moves. What's not to like? Sure some anti-tank weaponry would be nice, but GK just don't do that. That's what inducted guard are for, IMO.

 

As for our bikes, I'm already planning on running Ravenwing with GK allies so I'm glad to have your indirect confirmation that they might make a good team. ;)

[Dilgar]

Sorry for a really short answer,

 

LOL! :P

[the jeske]

What's not to like?

the 60pts it costs to take ? what is 1/3 of a tac squad .

 

 

And as for HQ choices, sure Belial gives us scoring termis but that's the best that can be said for him.

m8 that is like saying vulkan only makes melta and flamers twin linked and TH master crafted. Belial makes a termi based a viable choice[if it is a good build and at how many points is a different matter] , trying to base a GK force around termis means your making an army that loses 2/3 of all games .

 

PAGK vs. DA Tactical Marines- If you take 10 models, factor in the DA cost for stormbolters on every model and a PW on the sgt, you are left with paying 4.5 points per model for S6, WS5, and all the GK special rules. Not to mention, you have the option of taking two special or heavy weapons!

thing is they still die like normal meq so the size for squads at working size is still the same [8 models minimum] , only they cost 10 points more then a sm and their "specials" cost even more [and only one of them is worth taking] . most of the specials rules are greate against one codex , codex demons[they dont even work against codex csm] and the others considering how close range the fights have become are less effective .

[Mystic Lemur]

the 60pts it costs to take ? what is 1/3 of a tac squad .

Okay, that's a valid point. Your special weapon costs 5 points more than what our flamer costs, but ignore Inv and you can have 2. Your heavy is pretty prohibitive at 15 points more than our heavy bolter (the best comparable weapon), but, as already mentioned, can fire on the move as well as ignoring Inv (in the few situations where that is helpful). However, bare-bones, your Troops unit is better than ours.

 

Of course, maybe the DA codex isn't the best to compare it to. DA's are still an edition behind, so it makes your 2 edition lag not seem so bad. :P

 

 

m8 that is like saying vulkan only makes melta and flamers twin linked and TH master crafted. Belial makes a termi based a viable choice[if it is a good build and at how many points is a different matter] , trying to base a GK force around termis means your making an army that loses 2/3 of all games.

 

Well, I wasn't going to go C:SM but that's fine. Vulkan, as great as his ability is, is still viable even without the ability you mentioned. He is a viable stand-alone character. Can the same be said of Belial? Hardly. He is useless without other Terminators. Compare that to Sammael. Either a flying, fast land raider -or- a jetbike that can out-shoot and out-fight Belial. Oh, and he makes bikes scoring. I'd put the GKGM and Sammael on par with each other, but never Belial.

 

thing is they still die like normal meq so the size for squads at working size is still the same [8 models minimum] , only they cost 10 points more then a sm and their "specials" cost even more [and only one of them is worth taking] . most of the specials rules are greate against one codex , codex demons[they dont even work against codex csm] and the others considering how close range the fights have become are less effective .

My point was that you get quite a bit for that "10 points". I guess my optimism has no place among the Inquisition. :rolleyes:

[- 7eAL -]

The first thing that matters is the ratio of wound count to damage output. At all critical ranges of 12", Grey Knights have 0% more damage output than Marines, and it's easy to use a Rhino to protect those Marines until they get there. At any range without special gear, a Grey Knight costs 66% more than a Marine, so the Grey Knights will only ever have 66% as many wounds - maximum; this is greatly reduced by the cost of special weapons.

A Grey Knight Justicar will kill as many Marines as a Marine Sergeant with a fist will kill Grey Knights. In terms of relative value, the Marine Sergeant earns 66% more points per kill and with equal kills he is 66% more effective.

 

The reason why Grey Knight Terminators are great? Because they don't have this imbalanced ratio that overshoots actual damage per turn in favor of the estimation of potential damage per turn.

 

That imbalanced ratio based on the estimation of potential damage is also why the Hive Tyrant and the Carnifex are suffering in the new Tyranid codex.

[stoopicus]

Good quick analysis.

[Mystic Lemur]

I don't think it's a clear cut as your estimates show. :P

 

Assume two opponents, 7PAGK+Justicar w/ 2 Psycannon vs. a 10 man C:SM Tactical Squad with Heavy Bolter.

 

First we assume they shoot it out:

At 36", the PAGK with the Psycannon have a 50% chance of scoring 1+ unsaved wound (~15% chance of scoring 2+), and the C:SM only have ~2% chance of causing 1 or more unsaved wounds. At this range the PAGK are superior for as long as both Psycannon survive.

 

At 24", the PAGK with the Psycannon have about 80% chance of scoring 1+ unsaved wound (~15% chance of scoring 4+), and the C:SM have ~70% chance of causing 1 or more unsaved wounds (with ~20% chance of 2+). The ability to fire stormbolters twice at 24" makes the PAGK clearly superior.

 

There would only be a marginal difference at 12". Therefore, bare-bones PAGK, as well as PAGK w/ one or more Psycannon, have a clear advantage at 12-24" in a static firefight. At assault range, PAGK w/ Incinerators would have a marginal advantage due to the ability to take 2 (as opposed to the C:SM 1 flamer or no special weapon).

 

If we assume C:SM aggressors to PAGK defenders, the PAGK have the advantage from 36" down to 12" (at which point the Tactical squad can move 6" and fire its bolters). This is enhanced by the fact that PAGK w/ Psycannon are still fully effective at 18" on the move; playing "hard to get" would give the PAGK at least one more turn of fully effective fire than standing still.

 

Of course, all Tactical squads come with Rhinos these days, so let's assume that the Tac squad gets to close combat without taking any casualties. Both squads go simultaneously: the PAGK have an 85% chance of killing 1+ (~50% chance of killing 3+ and ~15% chance of 6+) while the Tac squad with a fist has ~67% chance of doing 2+ [Edit: unsaved] wounds (~15% chance of whiffing, and about 15% chance of 5+). The tac squad is more consistent, but both squads are hurting (and remember, it started out 8 vs. 10).

 

The PAGK in the example would run you 275 points while the Tac squad would run between 170 (10 man with Heavy Bolter) and 230 (Fist and Rhino). While a 20-60% more expensive troop choice is a hard pill to swallow, I hope that I have finally shown that it is a viable (and in some cases better) option. I also think I've reminded everyone how important it is to bust transports before they get to your lines. ;)

 

Now that I have a headache, I'm going to bed.

[Grey Mage]

Long story short, I was comparing a few things from the DH codex to my beloved DA codex, and wow:

 

(Banhammer my post if I violate any points posting rules, please)

PAGK vs. DA Tactical Marines- If you take 10 models, factor in the DA cost for stormbolters on every model and a PW on the sgt, you are left with paying 4.5 points per model for S6, WS5, and all the GK special rules. Not to mention, you have the option of taking two special or heavy weapons!

 

GKT vs. Deathwing- For 30 points more you trade 8 S8 and 2 S4 attacks for 11 WS5 S6 I4 attacks. GK also have the option of fielding 40 terminators, which is very comparable to the possible 46 DA termis.

 

And as for HQ choices, sure Belial gives us scoring termis but that's the best that can be said for him. :) GK get the choice of going light with the BC or going all out with the GM. And the GM is like a Belial-Ezekial lovechild that is better than both parents put together!

 

You can see why I'm posting this here instead of the DA forums, it's kind of depressing. :D

 

Edit: Forgot to count Belial as a Terminator.

*snorts*

HAHHAHAHAHHHAAA HAAA!

 

Yeah. Sorry about that.

 

But seriously, your comparing one of the most overpriced point for point codices in the game to a book that was written four years before it?

 

Nah, a more fair comparison would be against C:SM, were youll find them about right, to slightly overcosted.

 

The problem isnt the GKs, its the DA.

[Gentlemanloser]

But, Mystic is kinda right though, but the focus is off as Grey Mage points out!

 

A bog standard GK is very good for his points. Very. You can't get close to thier Statline in other armies (the closest is actually Fabius Bile'd Chaos Marines who are Fearless with S6 and get Ultra Grit instead of True Grit. All they lose is WS5 and 12" on thier Bolters when moving.) Edit: For thier Points Bile'd CSM are *cheaper* than PAGK, but have some random dawbacks. Space Wolf Wolf Guards can come close (SB and Frost Blade), but cost far more (IIRC 36odd points).

 

But that's not the issue.

 

The issue is the fundametal things the Grey Knights lack, that every other Codex has.

 

Like affordable Transports for thier Troops. And not having to purchase a super expensive 'Sarge' for every Troop squad.

 

Grey Knights aren't horribly underpriced. Dark Angels are horribly *overpriced*.

 

(Belail versus Logan. And 33 Point 10 Man Terminators Squads versus 46 Point 5 man squads. Drop Pods for a better Teleport Assault. It's easy to see the DA are overpriced compared to the 'current' Codexes.)

 

:D