Hfran Morkai Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Well with Prospero Burns put back (through no fault of anyone) I thought we could have a little discussion to whet our appetites for something that I have quite an interest in (being in love with fluff) I've seen people discussing points on both sides for the raid on Prospero. I personally feel the Wolves should have attacked Prospero. Sure the Thousand Sons were a loyal legion but they used sorcery after being forbidden, even though it was to save the Emperor. But the order came from the Warmaster himself, his title gives the game away, whilst the Emperor is busy with other concerns Horus was leading the crusade and commanding the Legions so an order from him should be obeyed, for if not it would have made the Space Wolves traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcus Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I say yea absolutely. imo Magnus' tale is pretty tragic, and i am of the opinion that his attempt to warn the big E was genuine. However, HIS orders are HIS orders, and even if Russ and Magnus were great friends (*shudder*), Russ would have sacked Prospero just as completely. i think that the Emperor carries the responsibilty for destroying the thousand sons, the Wolves were simply his weapon of choice... ya thats about $0.02 :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 IIRC, The Emperor didn't want, and didn't order, the SW to 'destroy' the TS. Weren't the SW ordered to bring Magnus tot he Emperor (or some such) for his use of Sorcery. Then on route, Horus gets wind, and decides to countermand the order and tell the SW to Destory the TS, as a way to get the SW out of the way of the attack on Terra? (With the SW not knowing then about the Warmasters betrayal). So the SW were just 'following orders', and the Destruction o fthe TS lays in the hands of the Warmaster (and the Chaos God/s who wanted this to happen). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 IIRC, The Emperor didn't want, and didn't order, the SW to 'destroy' the TS. Weren't the SW ordered to bring Magnus tot he Emperor (or some such) for his use of Sorcery. Then on route, Horus gets wind, and decides to countermand the order and tell the SW to Destory the TS, as a way to get the SW out of the way of the attack on Terra? (With the SW not knowing then about the Warmasters betrayal). So the SW were just 'following orders', and the Destruction o fthe TS lays in the hands of the Warmaster (and the Chaos God/s who wanted this to happen). Yep, that is more or less how it went. Leman was ordered to escort Magnus back to the Emperor, and it was Horus who countermanded that order. I don't really see how he had authority to do this as Leman's orders came directly from the Emperor himself. Also, I like to know why Russ decided to follow Horus' orders instead of the Emperor's. What factor made him decide? Was there an external influence?, like an advisor that was not directly involved with the Space Wolf Legion? Don't forget the lodges! Were all the Wolves loyal to Russ or was there a small minority that were in league with Horus unbeknown to Russ (in the same way as there were a few loyal marines in the traitor legions). Let's hope Abnett gets well soon and answers some of these questions. Edit: And yes in the end I think we were right in attacking. An order is an order. If the Emperor disallowed the widespread use of psychic abilities, he did so for a reason. Magnus should have obeyed or did things with the Emperor's permission not in secret. Also, I enjoyed the fact that Leman kicked the sh#t out of Mr Big Blue (I know - very immature, but don't tell me there is a SW fan who didn't enjoy that part of the story!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Having disobeyed the Emperor's order to desist from sorcery and then ruptured the palace's psychic shields when he sent his 'message', Magnus was hardly going to come quietly... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Chain of command@Night Runner would be the most logical answer: You want to take your Primarch son into custody yet you are not Supreme Commander of the Imperial Military; Horus is Warmaster. You relay orders to Horus to enact your Will thinking he is the good son and Magnus is the bad son throwing about magick and baseless accusations. Remember Valdor was there as well as Russ and I think this is a "man" not easily fooled. They both would have figured any change in orders would have come from the Emperor Himself, or through his chosen proxy, the Warmaster of the Imperial military. The Emperor sent his Custodes with their supreme leader, who by all accounts is more than capable by himself, and a group of Sisters of Silence to deal with any Warp tricks. Does this not suggest that the Emperor expected trouble in some form? If Valdor suspected some sort of treachery or ruse I am sure he would have done something about the situation yet he and his cadre of Custodes were busy laying Marines out, chopping off possessed appendages and breaking glass towers. Was it a tragedy that this occurred? Most certainly! Were the Wolves wrong? No! They were doing their duty for the Emperor, for even though the chain of command was corrupted the Emperor certainly expected there could be trouble. The Wolves were being good soldiers and good soldiers follow orders; especially those from the Supreme Commander of your military. The fact that Valdor and the Custodes stood beside them shows that these orders were thought to be issued from the Emperor without doubt to both friend and enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcus Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Weeeelll the Yellow-Spine edition of Codex Chaos says, (in the TS sec. page 17) "When Horus gathered his forces against the imperium the Thousand Sons at first tried to warn Emperor. Mistrustfull of anything tinged by chaos, the Emperor declared the Thousand Sons heretics and sent Leman Russ (AROO!) to devestate the Thosand Sons homeworld of Prospero." barring the howl thats how it goes hehe so from this, the first fluff i know that talks about this, Russ and his Wolves were tasked by the God-Emperor Himself to flatten Prospero. which makes it ok as far as loyalists are concerned :( Killing or not killing that one eyed ponce with a face the colour of baboons backside is something im not so sure about, and i havent read about Horus trying to pull some s%*# of his own. Even before bashing Magnus, Russ would have been given the low-down on the situation and would have understood Horus to be a traitor. He would have tried to kill Horus instead of listen to him. *IMVHO* ;) which book has the piece about horus diverting Russ? id like to read it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmwulf Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 After all the thousand sons were weak in mind and hardly THAT loyal. They rather turned to chaos than to die for their emperor. A truely loyal Chapter would rather be butchered to the last man than to save their hides and swear fealty to any chaos god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 really grimmwulf? i 'm sure most would turn, especially when in the scenario the 1000ths sons, curse their name, found them. think of it like this, what would we have done when we were declared to be destroyed after we tried in some way,forbidden by the emperor, tried to warn him. If then, on one moment Russ would have decided to side with chaos*spits on the ground*, curse that idea, then i'm pretty sure most of us would have followed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Leman was ordered to escort Magnus back to the Emperor, and it was Horus who countermanded that order. I don't really see how he had authority to do this as Leman's orders came directly from the Emperor himself. I thought Horus simply 'edited' the text to make it say "destroy"? Remember Valdor was there as well as Russ and I think this is a "man" not easily fooled. They both would have figured any change in orders would have come from the Emperor Himself, or through his chosen proxy, the Warmaster of the Imperial military. The Emperor sent his Custodes with their supreme leader, who by all accounts is more than capable by himself, and a group of Sisters of Silence to deal with any Warp tricks. Does this not suggest that the Emperor expected trouble in some form? If Valdor suspected some sort of treachery or ruse I am sure he would have done something about the situation yet he and his cadre of Custodes were busy laying Marines out, chopping off possessed appendages and breaking glass towers. QFT. The Emperor's Will is the Emperor's Will (even though someone fiddled with the wording), so there can be no accusations of disloyalty levelled at the Wolves. On the other hand, this: So the SW were just 'following orders' is the Nuremberg Defence. It seems like this was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" moment. I can't actually see the Emperor wanting Magnus dead though. Surely the best way to punish him/allow him to atone for his wrong would be to wire him into the Golden Throne. Would Valdor have told the Wolves about the possible solution to the Daemons flooding into the Imperial Palace, or would he even have known of this solution? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarapham Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I believe in some way that the way the Wolves act in the "present" might be because of the whole mess with that TS. While right in the military sense of the word (following orders) the action of attacking a fellow legion must have left a bad taste in the Wolves. Couple that with later finding out that the man, if it was indeed Horus and they knew this, who gave them the order turns out to be the biggest traitor and heretic in the history of mankind. When I look at it that way I see it as no wonder that the Wolves are one, if not the most anti-authoritarian chapters as they have seen first hand what devastation can be brought on by "simply following orders". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I believe in some way that the Wolves act in the "present" might be because of the whole mess with that TS. While right in the military sense of the word (following orders) the action of attacking a fellow legion must have left a bad taste in the Wolves. Couple that with later finding out that the man, if it was indeed Horus and they knew this, who gave them the order turns out to be the biggest traitor and heretic in the history of mankind. When I look at it that way I see it as no wonder that the Wolves are one, if not the most anti-authoritarian chapters as they have seen first hand what devastation can be brought on by "simply following orders". I think this is an excellent point you have made here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 While I am not too familiar with all the intricacies of the fluff, there are a few points I hope I'm remembering correctly: 1. The Emperor was attempting to build a Warp Gate within the palace (the Golden Throne was originally part of it) in order to try and access the Eldar Webway, not only to potentially destroy an enemy, but to utilize this kind of means of transport. Imagine being able to instantaneously bring the might of the Imperium to wherever needed without having to rely on transit time and travelling through the Warp. 2. When Magnus sent his psychic warning to the Emperor, it wasn't just a violation of His edict, Magnus also broke through the psychic wards guarding the Emperor's palace and consequently the Emperor's work on said Warp Gate. The resulting rift created an opening for a host of daemons to attack, slaughtering thousands of the workers present, and the Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence were left fighting a desperate battle. Only the Emperor's psychic powers stymied the tide, but as a result he (or some other powerful psyker) would have to remain connected to the Golden Throne to maintain the barriers. (and actually Malcador the Sigilite fulfills this role while the Emperor battles Horus.) 3. As a result, the Emperor ordered the Wolves of Fenris to go to Prospero, and to bring Magnus back to Terra for questioning and discipline. I'd wager that the Emperor, as punishment, intended to stick Magnus in the Golden Throne, leaving himself free to continue establishing his Empire. As Horus had only just been turned (I do believe these events happen before the Istvaan Drop Site Massacre), the Emperor and his loyal sons would have no knowledge of Horus' treachery and believing him the loyal son, the Emperor send his orders to the Warmaster, to relay to Russ. This makes sense as the Emperor left the Warmaster to continue the Crusade. Having to detach an entire Legion and send them aways might have interfered with the Warmaster's battleplans, and so the Emperor was giving Horus warning so as to be able to adjust accordingly. 4. Horus then alters the orders, and sends them to Russ, who then burns Prospero to the ground, shattering Magnus and his progeny. As to just following orders? It's a very grey area we're walking into, because the Thousand Sons are soldiers, not defenseless civilians. They are capable of defending themselves, and are a Legion just as much as the Wolves of Fenris are. If the Emperor declares them traitors, and (after Horus alters the orders) wishes them destroyed for their treason, who are they to question His Will? This is war, afterall, not genocide. 5. The Thousand Sons were played, pure and simple. Whether by the hand of the Gods of Chaos, or by Erebus or Horus (or any other of the conspirators), the Thousand Sons were deceived and tricked towards their destiny. And as a question of "remain loyal to the Emperor and die, or give in to Tzeentch", you have to understand that the Emperor wasn't just some military commander, and Russ was not just some loyal soldier. These were Magnus' family. The Emperor was his father, Russ his brother. The sacking of Prospero and the destruction of his Legion was the ultimate betrayal to Magnus. Could you still then die for a family that forsook you and brought you and your Legion to death's door? Magnus' choice was simple. Die, or live, follow Chaos, and be damned for eternity. Who is to say that Magnus did not have other plans once he escaped? We'll never know, because the Rubric of Ahriman sealed their fate. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Magnus brought his own fate down upon him. If the Allfather forbids his use of sorcery, then it is only right that they obey. But we see a lot of these things with traitor legions: World Eaters: No Implants: Ignored. Emperors Children: Advised not to strive for perfection: Acknowldged but ignored. Thousand Sons: Sorcery Forbidden: Ignored. Word Bearers: No Zealous Worship: Ignored. So we can see were traitors' flaws are: They think that they are bettering the Imperium. But, the Emperor wants the Imperium to be a 'perfect' place. Back on topic, the Thousand Sons were honourable brothers but ignorant, and so they brought the Emperors vengeance down upon them. Even if the Warmaster ordered their destruction, do you think not that Leman would have just been a good dog, grabbed Magnus by the ankle and pulled him back home? No! The Space Wolves are so mistrusting of arcane technology that they daredn't even use teleportation. Do you think they would have suffered the warp using bastards to live? No! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosedragon Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 It's good the SW followed the edict banning sorcery...oh wait... The Thousand Sons didn't deserve what happened to them. Russ just didn't like Magnus or his legion, and so when the order came to destroy them he didn't care to look a little closer or question it. Russ himself had no problem questioning authority - if he had any reluctance to destroying the legion and its homeworld he would have at least requested clarification or something. The burning of prospero was the culmination of a sibling rivalry and nothing more - further, had Russ not just laid back and accepted orders for (possibly) the first time in his life the Heresy may have turned out differently, and the Imperium would have a legion of the most bada-- psykers out there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 We weren't right to sack Prospero. Though Leman Russ didn't know it, he was aiding Horus and by extension, Chaos. Magnus was supposed to be interred on the Golden Throne so that he could open the link, made by the Emperor, into the Eldar Webway and protect those inside the human built portion of the webway. Also the attack on Prospero simply drove a SM Legion into the arms of Chaos. Was it right, no. It was a violation of the Emperor's orders. Was it Leman Russ's fault, no. He wasn't to know that Horus changed the orders handed down by the Emperor. I do think Leman was far too eager to destroy another Legion, which was unheard of at the time, he gave into his desires. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Who would doubt an order if the Custodians are with you to help out. Any blame on the Wolves should also be put on them, and dont forget the Silent sisters. You may continue youre debates now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 We weren't right to sack Prospero. Though Leman Russ didn't know it, he was aiding Horus and by extension, Chaos. Magnus was supposed to be interred on the Golden Throne so that he could open the link, made by the Emperor, into the Eldar Webway and protect those inside the human built portion of the webway. Also the attack on Prospero simply drove a SM Legion into the arms of Chaos. Was it right, no. It was a violation of the Emperor's orders. Was it Leman Russ's fault, no. He wasn't to know that Horus changed the orders handed down by the Emperor. I do think Leman was far too eager to destroy another Legion, which was unheard of at the time, he gave into his desires. Personally I agree with Clone here on everything except the part were you say that Leman was eager to destroy another legion and gave in to his desires. I don't think Russ was that bloodthirsty, even though he disliked Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Dont forget the emperor sent his most elite troops to help, and they didnt hesitate to help in the slaughter. We will find out in the novels what happend Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Do i here an echo? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2258641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeenos Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 I think Russ is given to much credit. IMO i dont think he was the sharpest pin the pack. So while a more thoughtful Leader might have thought on the orders he was given.. Russ wasnt much of the thinking type.. more of a point a shoot. Sort of aim him in the right direction and take off the coller. This is what i wrote on it in the Bad News topic; great. we got pushed back far enough. now this crap. you know how much crap i am going to take on the HH forums as graham mcsuck paints the thousand sons as tragic heroes? damn. WLK They are tragic heros? As far as i understand it they didnt turn to chaos, they were forced into it. I see the Space Wolves attack on Prospero as a tragity and a black mark of our chapters history. If everything i understand is still the up to date lore, Magnus, after being forbiden to use his magic, broke through the wards on the Emperors palace to send a message warning of Horus's betrail. The Emperor wouldnt belive them and sent the spaves wolves to baby sit the Sons, afaik they were only ment to go and make sure nothing fishy happened tell someone could get there and get an explanation out of Magnus. Alas, the message was intercepeted and altered by Horus to 'Destroy them'. In their last hour they turned to Tzeentch to wisk them away from annilation. Even then, though, they prefourmed the Ruberic (sp) to stop the mutations that were running wild in other chapters. Change and Mutation are supposed to be big things for Tzeentch, which tells me they didnt warship him out of some love, but lack of options. Otherwise they would have welcomed the change. But i suppose it can be debated forever really, some people belive its right to follow orders without question, and hey, if it turns out to have been wrong, you were just following orders right? Didnt work out for the Nazi's, but hey, whos counting. While the avrage blood claw has no place to question the orders of the emperor, Leman Russ was not a blood claw, he was one of the direct sons of the Emperor! Sure its a poor example to compare ourselves to such a highly militeristic family.. but if your father told you to wipe out your brother and his 10,000 sons.. would you not think on such? Hell, thinking on it more, id expect of ALL the Primarchs, Russ would be the one most comferitable questioning orders. Given his look on the Emperor as a great man, not a god or something, a man he had fought and respected becouse of that. Heck, Russ is the only man to have ever bested the Emperor in anything, surly Russ wouldnt have gone into such a fight rashly.. I dont know, its odd, but my two favorit chapters are Space Wolves and Thousand Sons.. so im torn and hung up on the fence. I have a feeling that the comming book will answer alot of questions.. in Dan's perspective. And i fear his perspective is going to be greatly influenced on what sells.. which is Space Marines destroying Chaos. So basicly im pictuing all sorts of tid bits thrown into his book to make the Thousand Sons look all the more at fault. I also feel that the Emperor telling Magnus not to use his magic would be like telling Russ not to shed. What the hell.. hes a Wolf. Yes yes i know he isnt actually a wolf, but i think you get the idea i was pointing at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2259139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 *First things first, in my ongoing campaign to champion Magnus and show that he was a Tragic Hero, let me just say that whatever Wolf Lord Kieran says for the next 12 months is untrue and he is not to be believed. ;) Trust me ;) Okay so this is the rub, from my point of view. Until Collected Visions was released, Magnus WAS a tragic hero and was stooged by Horus manipulating the Emperor's call to bring in Magnus for questioning (which was altered from the Emperor ordering Russ to raise Prospero) and the Belligerent Russ saw the opportunity to legitimately smoke the maligned Magnus. The rebellious Russ, such a trouble maker from way back, conveniently falls in line. If Dad asked me to destroy my hated brother, I'd still be surprised and would want it double checked before attacking Prospero.... regardless that Big Bro Horus said so. Collected Visions alters this and says that Magnus was heavily involved with Tzeentch from ages ago and had been a puppet for a long time (I haven't read it but this is what I gather from WLK). This means that Magnus was such a fool for Tzeentch that even 'the warning' was according to Tzeentch's machinations. Even the 'good' that Magnus is doing is from the Devil and as such, Magnus needs to be brought to heel. Even still, if the Emperor only wanted Magnus brought in for questioning and Russ went to kill him, Russ still should have double checked, inspite of the command coming from Horus. IMO, Russ certainly wasn't a yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir kind of a dude. So why such apple-polishing behaviour when it comes to Magnus.... -_- So we will find out for real about Magnus with the SW-TS duo coming out. If CV was a glitch, then Magnus is returned to Tragic Hero. If the CV theme is carried on with that means that Magnus is.... um, well that BL has got it wrong twice. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2259228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Following orders is not an excuse, and that is what the Nuremberg trials showed. The correct response is, "we were ordered to do so, we carried out our orders, and we take responsibility for our actions now." The Wolves sacked Prospero under orders. They carried out those orders to the best of their ability. They don't attempt to absolve themselves from blame, should blame be merited, by claiming that they were "just following orders." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2259260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 hahaha. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2259290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Following orders is not an excuse, and that is what the Nuremberg trials showed. The correct response is, "we were ordered to do so, we carried out our orders, and we take responsibility for our actions now." The Wolves sacked Prospero under orders. They carried out those orders to the best of their ability. They don't attempt to absolve themselves from blame, should blame be merited, by claiming that they were "just following orders." Damed if you do, damned if you don't. Time of war, you don't follow an order, you get court marshelled, or if it's a Commisar giving the order, shot dead. :wub: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190513-were-we-right-to-sack-prospero/#findComment-2259295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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