Were we right to sack Prospero?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I am not to sure, I have always thought that Russ, even with his distrust would not like the idea of being the first to actually attack another legion, and I have always wondererd why him and Valdor did not question the orders, and the sacking of Prospero just seems to epitimise the confusion, tragidy and paradise lost feel of the Heresy.

Also is it common for Space wolves players to go on to play Thousand sons as well, for they are my favorite chaos legion, hence me playing them with Alpha legion elements, is there any connection to playing Grey knights and Salamanders?

Also I am planning on writing an alternitive heresy, do you think it would be possible, if during the seige of Terra, Ahriman saved Bjorn from a traitor dreadnought, for a respect/frendship to develop between the two, that when a certain captain Orar of a certain blue traitor legion kills Ahriman, Bjorn would hunt him down Orar to avenge him?

[jeremy1391]

i think that magnus is a tragic hero....... but i do think that he went about warning the emperor wrong.

i also think that Russ was so offended by the fact that Magnus was a "traitor" that he descended upon them like the true predator he was.

 

manipulated on all fronts i think.

[SamaNagol]

The Emperor's personal bodyguard were there joining in. Why would you ever question orders given to you from the Emperor's favourite son who was His general of the Imperial armies when his own personal bodyguard do not question them?

[Spacefrisian]

The Emperor's personal bodyguard were there joining in. Why would you ever question orders given to you from the Emperor's favourite son who was His general of the Imperial armies when his own personal bodyguard do not question them?

 

This echo is persistent.

[Valerian]

This has been a very good thread, and I'm very much enjoying it. I've been playing the game for over 20 years now, and have read about every rulebook, codex, and hundreds of White Dwarf articles over the years. However, I've only read one or two of the Black Library books. I just wasn't that impressed with the quality of the books as novels, and have looked elsewhere for my fiction reading over the years despite my love for the 40K universe.

 

I've mentioned this just to get me to the point that I find it quite fascinating how much fluff has apparently been updated/retconned in those Black Library books, particularly in the Horus Heresy era releases. I'm not so sure that I like all of this new background material, frankly. Back in the old days everything was pretty simple: Magnus broke the rules and the Emperor himself sent Russ to punish him. Russ did exactly what he was supposed to do, excepting of course that Magnus managed to escape; there was no interference from Horus in the matter whatsoever. Additionally, there were no Custodes, or advisors, or any other Imperial lackeys involved, just Space Wolves against Thousand Sons, because the Emperor saw it as justified, necessary, and wanted it done.

 

Additionally, the Emperor wasn't working on the Eldar webway, or any other project other than trying to unite humanity, secure the galaxy, and continue the Great Crusade. Lastly, the Golden Throne wasn't built until the Emperor needed it, to keep the Carrion Lord of Man alive, sustained in a half-death, so that his considerable power and indominatable will could continue to protect humanity from the untold threats of a cold, dark universe.

 

Sometimes the old fluff is the best fluff.

 

Best regards,

 

V

[hmk17]

IIRC, The Emperor didn't want, and didn't order, the SW to 'destroy' the TS. Weren't the SW ordered to bring Magnus tot he Emperor (or some such) for his use of Sorcery.

 

Then on route, Horus gets wind, and decides to countermand the order and tell the SW to Destory the TS, as a way to get the SW out of the way of the attack on Terra? (With the SW not knowing then about the Warmasters betrayal).

 

So the SW were just 'following orders', and the Destruction o fthe TS lays in the hands of the Warmaster (and the Chaos God/s who wanted this to happen).

Yep, that is more or less how it went. Leman was ordered to escort Magnus back to the Emperor, and it was Horus who countermanded that order. I don't really see how he had authority to do this as Leman's orders came directly from the Emperor himself. Also, I like to know why Russ decided to follow Horus' orders instead of the Emperor's. What factor made him decide? Was there an external influence?, like an advisor that was not directly involved with the Space Wolf Legion? Don't forget the lodges! Were all the Wolves loyal to Russ or was there a small minority that were in league with Horus unbeknown to Russ (in the same way as there were a few loyal marines in the traitor legions).

 

Let's hope Abnett gets well soon and answers some of these questions.

 

Edit: And yes in the end I think we were right in attacking. An order is an order. If the Emperor disallowed the widespread use of psychic abilities, he did so for a reason. Magnus should have obeyed or did things with the Emperor's permission not in secret. Also, I enjoyed the fact that Leman kicked the sh#t out of Mr Big Blue (I know - very immature, but don't tell me there is a SW fan who didn't enjoy that part of the story!).

 

Correct to some extent.

 

Russ was tasked with bringing in Magnus AFTER Magnus willingly broke the Council of Nicea's decision on Sorcery in a big way. He had been flouting the rules on sorcery for years, but when he got wind through the warp of things going down he reacted VERY inappropriately.

 

Previous fluff had him going so far as personally contacting the Emperor through sorcery to warn him of Horus' sedition and corruption. We shall see if this holds up in McNeil's book.

 

False Gods has Magnus willingly sacrificing his men in order to help Horus fight the demons that would seek to corrupt him during the "healing ritual" on Davin. He was then rebuffed for his efforts and Horus elected to accept Chaos in the end. AFTER Davin, Fulgrim relates that Magnus is to be arrested by Russ and as to why. Horus later discusses the situation with his new inner circle and their concerns that Magnus might make some play to stop them. He mentions that Magnus will not be a threat since he personally talked to Russ and made sure he was aware of the "full breadth and depravity of the daemonic sorceries and rituals Magnus used." He then states that Russ was suitably enraged by them.

 

So what does that mean?

 

Horus didn't countermand the Emperor's order. I think he went to Russ and lied his ass off about Davin and what happened, probably laying blame for everything at Magnus' feet.

 

Battle for the Abyss paints the Space Wolves' contingent being very anti-psyker, so it very easy to conclude that Russ himself has a personal hatred there too. Now one of Russ' main strengths is his loyalty to those who earn it. Horus Rising talks about the primarchs would supported Horus vs. those that sought the position of Warmaster. Russ supported Horus, so there had to be some personal loyalty beyond being his father's chosen. If Horus blames Magnus and sorcery for his near death on Davin, both of the above would push Leman Russ into a whole new degree of pissed off. Enough to recall the entire Space Wolves legion to thrust them at Prospero and not settle till he was dragging Magnus' corpse back to the Emperor under the claim that he resisted arrest. The Custodes were there as the official badge of the Emperor. The Silent Sisters were there to support and then sweep clean the planet of psykers AFTER Magnus was dragged off planet. Russ and the Wolves were the SWAT team / muscle to be there in case Magnus and crew wanted to not go peacefully. The Emperor said to bring him back, he didn't say how Leman was to do it.

 

Now the question. Were we wrong?

 

No.

 

While Russ was goaded and misled in the matters at hand, the Thousand Sons and Magnus had deliberately defied the Emperor for years because they thought they knew better than him. While they were essentially loyal to the Imperium and tried to do the right thing with warning the Emperor and Horus... those only made some nice cobble stones on that road to hell. Magnus' sorcery was a time bomb just waiting to go off. It would have back-fired in his face one day, as the entities of Chaos would have used it for their own means.

 

 

Did things spin out of control?

 

Yes.

 

Horus' intervention made things worse. However, Magnus knew full well that he was going to be called to carpet for his actions. However justifiable they were, he still spit on the Emperor's decrees. While their tale is tragic and lamentable, there is no blameless party here. Unless McNeil scripts a conversation between Magnus and Russ saying, "I screwed up. I surrender to you unconditionally, Leman." "Raargghh! You and your planet die now, witch!"

 

I don't think that a confrontation was avoidable. Magnus thought himself right and not even the Emperor could dissaude that line of thought. Russ came in looking for a reason to unleash hell. Refusing to surrender to the Emperor's forces would have qualified enough and proved the suspicions Horus might have planted.

 

 

 

This story is loaded with all the good drama that we love in the 40K universe. We know the steps leading up, we know the ending... hopefully the middle part lives up to our imaginations.

[Icewolf]

*First things first, in my ongoing campaign to champion Magnus and show that he was a Tragic Hero, let me just say that whatever Wolf Lord Kieran says for the next 12 months is untrue and he is not to be believed. ;)

Trust me ;)

 

Okay so this is the rub, from my point of view. Until Collected Visions was released, Magnus WAS a tragic hero and was stooged by Horus manipulating the Emperor's call to bring in Magnus for questioning (which was altered from the Emperor ordering Russ to raise Prospero) and the Belligerent Russ saw the opportunity to legitimately smoke the maligned Magnus. The rebellious Russ, such a trouble maker from way back, conveniently falls in line.

 

If Dad asked me to destroy my hated brother, I'd still be surprised and would want it double checked before attacking Prospero.... regardless that Big Bro Horus said so.

 

Collected Visions alters this and says that Magnus was heavily involved with Tzeentch from ages ago and had been a puppet for a long time (I haven't read it but this is what I gather from WLK). This means that Magnus was such a fool for Tzeentch that even 'the warning' was according to Tzeentch's machinations.

Even the 'good' that Magnus is doing is from the Devil and as such, Magnus needs to be brought to heel.

Even still, if the Emperor only wanted Magnus brought in for questioning and Russ went to kill him, Russ still should have double checked, inspite of the command coming from Horus.

 

IMO, Russ certainly wasn't a yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir kind of a dude. So why such apple-polishing behaviour when it comes to Magnus.... -_-

 

So we will find out for real about Magnus with the SW-TS duo coming out. If CV was a glitch, then Magnus is returned to Tragic Hero. If the CV theme is carried on with that means that Magnus is.... um, well that BL has got it wrong twice. :)

 

Perhaps Russ did double check his original orders from the Emperor through Horus and that is when Horus altered them so Russ attacked Prospero.

 

Icewolf

[Hfran Morkai]

The only thing more evil than a man who acts is an immoral fashion and knows it is a man who acts in an immoral fashion and doesn't know it.

 

I like that statement.

 

I'm just trying to get my head round it. It's why I'm looking forward to the book, we can learn of the truth!

 

Rough series of events

 

Magnus realizes heresy is occurring

Magnus uses sorcery to warn the Emperor

Emperor dispatches Russ' legion to bring him in

Horus changes order to destroy the legion

Russ turns up at Prospero

Thousand Sons fight back

Space Wolves win the fight

 

Several problems I see there.

 

Magnus should never have dabbled with sorcery in the first place

Shouldn't have used sorcery

The Emperor sends in a legion which is known for it's love of fighting and the ferocity, perhaps even created to destroy other legions. Led by the most stubborn guy you could hope to meet.

Russ wasn't a fan of sorcery

The chain of command was corrupt and this resulted in new orders (which would have been obeyed due to the origin and the fact they were the most up to date orders provided) which would have appealed to such a man, someone who craved combat and worthy foes.

The Thousand Sons made life difficult for the Space Wolves, this would have gotten the blood boiling and when you land and the forces are fighting back you're going to kill them. Then again the Thousand Sons were hardly going to sit back and let the Wolves walk over them, especially if orbital strikes from the fleet were being used.

 

Oh boy this is fun, so many interesting points.

 

At least the book will put the issue into more light, along with being an excellent read I'm certain.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

He was wrong because the act carried out was despicable in itself, it was morally wrong to participate in the acts carried out.

 

Be careful not to apply 21st Century morality to the 31st millennium. Even though it's not the Grimdark of the 41st millennium, no quarter is still being applied to whatever alien species the Great Crusade comes across. In light of a galactic genocide perpetrated by the Emperor and his sons (in which Russ is involved), is Russ going to stop and dispute this on any other ground than loyalty? I don't think he would, and after meddling in sorcery after the Emperor told him not to, Magnus doesn't really pass the loyalty test either.

[clanfield]

if your not with me your against me

 

besides i think russ wanted the challange of fighting another primarch in a real fight not a practice match ...sadly the thousand sons are the opersite of the space wolves in charictor/culture im sure that was as much a factor as the need for retribution russ felt for magnus betraying the emperor

was it right hell yes was it moral not so sure blindly following orders is ever right,but we still have to see this story fully writen out

[Walter Payton]

Could it be that the Emperor sent the wolves deliberately? Perhaps he saw what Magnus was to become (he had foresight after all), and unleashed the Wolves?

[WolfGuardVortek]

Could it be that the Emperor sent the wolves deliberately? Perhaps he saw what Magnus was to become (he had foresight after all), and unleashed the Wolves?

Which, in turn lead to Magnus becoming the very thing the Emperor was trying to stop him from becoming.

 

Foresight is such a tricky thing afterall..

[Inquisitor Orion]

The whole thing is a fluff flaw….

 

With the primarchs getting different gifts of the emperor…. Psychic gift being strongest in Magnus and his seed…. Telling the Thousand suns they could no longer use their psychic abilities is like telling the Iron Hands they could no longer have Tech priests. This judgment makes the emperor seem flawed. Furthermore with the Emperor’s attempt at keeping Chaos unknown to the masses he should have taken Magnus under his wing a little better (which he may have, plenty of unknowns there). Surely the emperor knew that Magnus was dabbling and could result, at the lest, in uncovering the Chaos secret . Overall I blame the emperor for Magnus.

 

As far as the Wolfs being wrong. I vote no, hopefully we will have a good story for their reasons (of kicking there buts so completely). I do find it hard to believe compared to other primarch/marine reactions that the wolves would be so blood thirsty to destroy another chapter.

[ashen]

I don't think the wolves were right to sack Prospero. I believe like some previous posters have said that Russ should have either checked with the emperor, or just brought Magnus in for questioning.

I also agree that it was this act that has helped create that anti-authoritarian viewpoint of the wolves. I don't know my fluff that well, but it seems as though Logan Grimnar is probably the most moral and consciencious chaptermaster out there.

[Mithril hound]

Theres some thing you all seem to forget. It is that the difference between the psychic powers of the librarians and the sorcery of the thousand sons is very similar.

[Inquisitor Orion]

Fluff wise, I know the game just sums it up as psykers….

 

I see psychic powers as something that resides in the individual. Some part of the warp a psyker can tap into naturally from within him/herself. Story wise psyker’s have different natural abilities.

 

Sorcery on the other hand I see a the individual pulling the power from the warp using words, icons, etc. Or in essence using the power of demons or the Dark god threw themselves (or maybe other entities not directly tied to the chaos gods, Eldar powers come to mind).

 

With magnus’ abilities and seemingly thirst for knowledge he was bound to dabble in sorcery. Although I do not have any knowledge on what his natural abilities are.

 

Could be wrong, but that’s the only way Ive seen it while reading through the books and gaming stuff.

[SamaNagol]

Sorcery has been described as making daemonic pacts in exchange for power from the warp. Psykers just channel the power which already flows through them due to their genetic condition. Anyone can be a sorceror if they know the right words.

 

The TSons increased their already formidable pyschic powers by making pacts with denizens of the warp in the naieve belief that they could actually control those entities. In the end this was proven to be a falsehood.

 

That's the reason the Emperor censured their sorcerous research. The fluff over the years on the Council of Nikaea has changed from the censure of all psychic powers, to just outlawing the use of sorcery whilst laying down outlines for the training of librarians.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

This has been a very good thread, and I'm very much enjoying it. I've been playing the game for over 20 years now, and have read about every rulebook, codex, and hundreds of White Dwarf articles over the years. However, I've only read one or two of the Black Library books. I just wasn't that impressed with the quality of the books as novels, and have looked elsewhere for my fiction reading over the years despite my love for the 40K universe.

 

I've mentioned this just to get me to the point that I find it quite fascinating how much fluff has apparently been updated/retconned in those Black Library books, particularly in the Horus Heresy era releases. I'm not so sure that I like all of this new background material, frankly. Back in the old days everything was pretty simple: Magnus broke the rules and the Emperor himself sent Russ to punish him. Russ did exactly what he was supposed to do, excepting of course that Magnus managed to escape; there was no interference from Horus in the matter whatsoever. Additionally, there were no Custodes, or advisors, or any other Imperial lackeys involved, just Space Wolves against Thousand Sons, because the Emperor saw it as justified, necessary, and wanted it done.

 

Additionally, the Emperor wasn't working on the Eldar webway, or any other project other than trying to unite humanity, secure the galaxy, and continue the Great Crusade. Lastly, the Golden Throne wasn't built until the Emperor needed it, to keep the Carrion Lord of Man alive, sustained in a half-death, so that his considerable power and indominatable will could continue to protect humanity from the untold threats of a cold, dark universe.

 

Sometimes the old fluff is the best fluff.

 

Best regards,

 

V

 

I think they're trying to muffle the grimdark of the 31st millennium. The Emperor goes from being a relatively magnanimous tyrant capable of commanding one son to slay another, to a kindly man whose most trusted son betrays him and manipulates events to set one brother against another.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial Records for all time. page 94 of the Collected Visions, said by the Emperor to Magnus at the Council of Nikea

 

the Council of Nikea was performed to bring Magnus upon trial for introducing sorcery into his Legion's Librarius. This was not a psycher witch hunt, or a attempt to make magnus look bad. he was on trial for doing something he had already promised the emperor he would never do.

 

so after this, after this very blunt and dire warning of what would happen to Magnus if he continued his sorcerous ways, Magnus decided to use a daemonic, sorcerous spell to reveal Horus's treachery to the Emperor.

 

so again, he disobeyed the Emperor 2 times, meddles with powers that are far greater than his, and literally unleashed hell under the Imperial Palace.

 

to answer the original question, no, we werent wrong. we were the justice and vengeance of the Emperpr brought upon Prospero for the foolish, arrogant actions of the Thousand Sons Legion.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

*First things first, in my ongoing campaign to champion Magnus and show that he was a Tragic Hero, let me just say that whatever Wolf Lord Kieran says for the next 12 months is untrue and he is not to be believed. :tu:

Trust me ;)

 

If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial Records for all time. page 94 of the Collected Visions, said by the Emperor to Magnus at the Council of Nikea

 

the Council of Nikea was performed to bring Magnus upon trial for introducing sorcery into his Legion's Librarius. This was not a psycher witch hunt, or a attempt to make magnus look bad. he was on trial for doing something he had already promised the emperor he would never do.

 

so after this, after this very blunt and dire warning of what would happen to Magnus if he continued his sorcerous ways, Magnus decided to use a daemonic, sorcerous spell to reveal Horus's treachery to the Emperor.

 

so again, he disobeyed the Emperor 2 times, meddles with powers that are far greater than his, and literally unleashed hell under the Imperial Palace.

 

to answer the original question, no, we werent wrong. we were the justice and vengeance of the Emperpr brought upon Prospero for the foolish, arrogant actions of the Thousand Sons Legion.

 

WLK

 

Plug you ears and avert your eyes brethren ~ I warned you brothers and look at the slander he spews over Primarch Magnus! :P

I didn't even need sorcery to see this attack coming, but as a Templar naturally you'd never see me resorting to such Witchcraft.... ever.... :lol:

 

I don't even like the Pre-heresy Thousand Sons.... at all.... ^_^

 

*If the CV theme will be continued in the SW-TS duo, it would seem Magnus has become beguiled by the potential that Sorcery offers.

 

I would love for BL/GW to hammer out the difference between Legal Psyker powers and Illegal Sorcerer powers, what difference is there, where does the power come from, why did the Emperor not want Magnus performing Sorcery, how are sorcerer cabals different from IG Psyker battle squads and all the nitty-gritty details.

 

And what was it that so wooed Magnus, as in how did Sorcery offer him something that Psychic powers didn't.

 

These are things I would like to know.... :lol:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

drat, your onto me...BACK TO THE NERD CAVE! ^_^

 

*dramatic escape music*

 

i did avoid posting anything serious in this thread for a bit, but i figured that the Sons of Russ should deserve to hear the Emperor's words on this matter.

 

and since we often encounter this same discussion over in the HH forums, what a suprise you woudl have seen me eventually throwing my hat into the ring...what suprises me is a loyalist black templar is championing (or however that goes) a traitorous sorcerer!?! :lol:

 

WLK

[StormDragon]

Very good thread. <_<

 

I would also like to know what the differences are between being a Psyker and a Sorcerer? After all they both get their power from the warp.

 

I believe that there was enmity between Russ and Magnus, maybe as a result of Russ' mistrust of sorcerey or maybe the mistrust came about as a result of a dislike of Magnus. But either way I don't think there was much love lost between the two of them and that contirbuted to the end result of the sacking of Prospero. I believe Russ used the Emperor/Horus' orders as an excuse to vent his dislike of Magnus.

 

One question I have just thought of is what would have happened if the roles had been reversed? What if the T'sons had been sent to Fenris to bring Russ to task about something would they have shown the Wolves any more mercy?

 

In the end I think there were two losers. The T'sons who were put in a position where they saw Tzentch as their only means of survival and the Wolves who were duped into aiding Chaos by forcing a potentially loyal legion to turn and being so far away as to not be able to help in the Siege of Terra. I hope the books leave Magnus as another tragic casualty of the Heresy rather than make him out to be a chaos worshiper from the start.

[LPetersson]

I would also like to know what the differences are between being a Psyker and a Sorcerer? After all they both get their power from the warp.

 

A psyker is a human (For example) with psychic abilities that are limited by what ever level of power they were born with.

They can train these powers to become better and more refined, but they have a limit of power which they were in a sense born with.

 

A sorcerer is a human who may or may not have had any psychic abilities who use rituals/spells to contact the warp and gain powers that way.

If this sorcerer already has psychic abilities, this makes it easier for them to perform these rituals and contact the malevolent entities in the warp which can give them greater power.

 

Although both Psykers and sorcerers gain their powers from the warp, sorcerers get them only from chaos entities AFAIK while Psykers may be loyal to the glorious Emperor of all of mankind.

[SamaNagol]

While it is a very simplified way of looking at it, the power of the warp exists with and without the conscious entities that reside within.

 

Sorcery is obtaining some of that power through pacts with the warp spawned creatures, the psyker simply channels the innate power from within the warp.

 

Kind of like getting electricity through solar panels or through burning fossil fuels. Same end result but obtained through different means.

[Walter Payton]

One has to consider: The Imperium is crueller than the Emperor wished it to be, due to the corrupt rule of the High Lords of the Adeptus Terra. The Emperor was a more lenient and slightly kindlier man. However, he was still a genocidal warmonger. As the envoy of the False Emperor says in Horus Rising: 'You could have just left us alone'

 

Historical Metaphor

 

The High Lords of Terra are Hitler

 

The Emperor is Alexander of Macedon

 

Hitler is considered as being one of the most evil humans in history. He invaded nations for no reason

 

Alexander is regarded in kindlier terms, but he still razed the city of Thebes, he still dragged the corpse of Bagoas around the Towers of Palestine, and he still sacked the city of Tyre (although to be fair they had crucified his childhood tutor).

 

He still invaded nations and commited genocide. He just did it less.