Were we right to sack Prospero?

[styx]

It was a tragic twist, the Space Wolves hated the 1000 Sons anyway and Russ had a thing aginst Magnus anyway. When Horus gave the countermand he just let them off their leash.

 

Clearly the Wolves betrayed the Emperor by following the orders of Horus if you go by true pecking order. Technically they sided with Chaos without knowing.

 

Second, Magnus was made to be a child of the Emperor just like the other primarchs and their legion. He was the sum of all the psychic base of the Emperor. If this was so wrong in the first place why did the Emperor allow it to be created or last so long? There was a reason for that Legion like all the others.

 

Space Wolves was clear mutants with the Canis defect. Look at the Wolfin, they had to make an entire company of mutants. One of the most highest creeds of the Imperium is to not tolerate the mutant. Yet the Wolves did. Just like the Blood Angels looked away from their Black Rage after the death of their primarch.

 

If the Space Wolves hate psychic powers so much, then why do they use it? They have Rune Preists, throw their decisions on the Rune Stones! HELLO MAGIC! Pot calling the kettle black!

 

So, Horus is going to send them a nice fruit basket and a free "I'm actually Chaos" t-shirt as an honorary tratior legion. As they was more of a heresey than the 1000 Sons.

 

Funny thing is if Magnus had did things different, say sent word to the other chapters to meet him in terror as a dire threat to the Emperor was about to happen or some such. Pack up his entire legion and go park in Earth Orbit, already Dorn and company was there along with the Blood Angels, I think things would have worked out differently.

[Hfran Morkai]

The point about letting the Wolves live was likely an issue of necessity, just like why Navigators are permitted to live.

 

Russ was against sorcery, not psychic powers as far as I'm aware, after all you need someone to counter enemy psykers.

 

Rune Stones doesn't mean psychic powers, they're simply stones with a symbol on them.

 

I like the sound of a fruit basket though. :drool:

[styx]

The point about letting the Wolves live was likely an issue of necessity, just like why Navigators are permitted to live.

 

Russ was against sorcery, not psychic powers as far as I'm aware, after all you need someone to counter enemy psykers.

 

Rune Stones doesn't mean psychic powers, they're simply stones with a symbol on them.

 

I like the sound of a fruit basket though. :drool:

 

Well, just finished the first Omni about the Space Wolves, the more primative minded see it as Sorcery like Ragnar did. Everything was really, but when they was scanned by the Rune Preists that was clearly in his mind sorcery no psychic. To me there is no difference, your tapping the Warp for ambient energy to produce X result. Your still using the Warp to power your psychic powers..

 

Second, those that read the Imperial Tarot are all psykers, they use their powers to see the future. Same for the Rune Preists, they throw the stones and and use their psychic powers to guide their visions and what they read from them. You never see a "normal" marine like a Chaplain, Wolf Preist, Lord, etc use them...

[Hfran Morkai]

Second, those that read the Imperial Tarot are all psykers, they use their powers to see the future. Same for the Rune Preists, they throw the stones and and use their psychic powers to guide their visions and what they read from them. You never see a "normal" marine like a Chaplain, Wolf Preist, Lord, etc use them...

 

Pg14- "The entire chapter chooses his successor from amongst the Wolf Lords. Each stone is enscribed with a name-rune; whichever Lord has the most runestones at the stroke of midnight"

 

 

Quote might not be exact because it's from memory.

 

:drool:

 

Just wanted to guard that bit of fluff.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Emperor is Alexander of Macedon

 

Uh-uh. Alexander was willing to assimilate other peoples, tribes and cultures into his empire. By contrast, the Emperor is having all the aliens massacred.

 

The Imperium is crueller than the Emperor wished it to be, due to the corrupt rule of the High Lords of the Adeptus Terra. The Emperor was a more lenient and slightly kindlier man.

 

How? (that applies to the 'corruption' as well as the 'more lenient')

 

I see no difference between the actions of early Imperium and the later Imperium other than motivation.

 

Clearly the Wolves betrayed the Emperor by following the orders of Horus if you go by true pecking order. Technically they sided with Chaos without knowing.

 

*Frowns* So Magnus has sided with Chaos by using forbidden powers and betraying the Emperor. By attempting to bring Magnus to justice with more enthusiasm than they should, the Wolves have also sided with Chaos.

 

Tzeentch is going to have fun working this out. -_-

[Karack Blackstone]

I only see words here that seem to actually defend the 1000 sons...

 

And I think I can see why.

 

While we agree the book is going to help shed light on what happened, both books will likely contain sections of what happened. Or, more likely as a good author might do, put in the same material, just from different perspectives.

 

So all this debate is really going to have to wait although as mentioned already, we have a point of difference already forming.

 

My opinion on the Wolves, "Just following orders" has details the book will fill in. Otherwise, I see it as, "follow your orders my sons" from the Emperor versus the simple fact that Horus played his hand closer and more carefully than Magnus. His betrayal was not detected for some time it seems.

 

Any changes to our orders as the Sons of Russ would be hard to detect on this line of thinking. Also, what of an around the problem in the chain of command type of checking our orders with the Emperor himself? Also hard, though doable. I just find it unlikely that we as a legion and later a chapter would have anything but contempt for a chain of command that can have such glaring problems in it and not be found out without great loss and bloodshed on our part.

 

I vote that the Sons of Russ did not knowingly follow chaos, and if they felt the smell of it in the air, as the Ragnar books make mention, any chance of it lingering means they'd go about cleansing themselves with loyal sermons by the Wolf Priests and would have then started to question orders more fully after this.

 

As with our Chapter's current outlook, there is little reason to doubt this is a pretty good estimation of what was done, should chaos have decided to try and take hold in the Wolves of Fenris.

[chaplain belisarius]

Interesting thread. Now personally, I think sw are great, grey hunters are the best troops choice in the game and they are great fun to play BUT the attack on prospero always puts me off the idea of going for that SW army (i mean no offence by this-its just what i think!). I kinda feel sorry for the thousand sons. If the SW hadnt of attacked prospero-id have no problem with getting a SW army.

 

just my thoughts on the matter...

[styx]

Second, those that read the Imperial Tarot are all psykers, they use their powers to see the future. Same for the Rune Preists, they throw the stones and and use their psychic powers to guide their visions and what they read from them. You never see a "normal" marine like a Chaplain, Wolf Preist, Lord, etc use them...

 

Pg14- "The entire chapter chooses his successor from amongst the Wolf Lords. Each stone is enscribed with a name-rune; whichever Lord has the most runestones at the stroke of midnight"

 

 

Quote might not be exact because it's from memory.

 

:(

 

Just wanted to guard that bit of fluff.

 

That references using a Rune Stone of their company, basicly a ballot. Has nothing to do with divination like Tarot or Casing Runes that I am talking about.

[styx]

The Emperor is Alexander of Macedon

 

Uh-uh. Alexander was willing to assimilate other peoples, tribes and cultures into his empire. By contrast, the Emperor is having all the aliens massacred.

 

The Imperium is crueller than the Emperor wished it to be, due to the corrupt rule of the High Lords of the Adeptus Terra. The Emperor was a more lenient and slightly kindlier man.

 

How? (that applies to the 'corruption' as well as the 'more lenient')

 

I see no difference between the actions of early Imperium and the later Imperium other than motivation.

 

Clearly the Wolves betrayed the Emperor by following the orders of Horus if you go by true pecking order. Technically they sided with Chaos without knowing.

 

*Frowns* So Magnus has sided with Chaos by using forbidden powers and betraying the Emperor. By attempting to bring Magnus to justice with more enthusiasm than they should, the Wolves have also sided with Chaos.

 

Tzeentch is going to have fun working this out. :(

 

That very power could have prevented the Heresy from getting out of hand and saved himself if the Emperor got his head out of his arse and listened in the first place. Magnus was loyal to the Emperor until the Wolves pushed them, the Space Wolves came down on their world with total savage abandon. They was not ready to defend themself, nor given the oppertunity. That isn't very honorable either. Sure they was on the line to go to Chaos, but so was several chapters, choices made made curried the fates. My point is the Wolves was no better than those they went after.

[Stormbrow II]

Alexander was willing to assimilate other peoples, tribes and cultures into his empire

Yes. The OP said people. Blue-grey vagina headed aliens don't count as people in that regard.

 

Anyway - who are you to question the Immortal Emperor?

[Hfran Morkai]

They was not ready to defend themself, nor given the oppertunity. That isn't very honorable either. Sure they was on the line to go to Chaos, but so was several chapters, choices made made curried the fates. My point is the Wolves was no better than those they went after.

 

I think the Thousand Sons were prepared for what was coming, we shall see in the future but I can't imagine a Legion just sitting round doing nothing. Especially one who's Primarch has just gone and used vile magicks.

 

And if they weren't then that's the best way to catch an enemy, with his trousers down.

 

The Wolves couldn't exactly land their Stormbirds and stroll up to Magnus' chambers expecting him to hand himself over, the Thousand Sons would, rightly so, defend themselves against an invasion, so the Wolves went in with full force, which was definitely a mistake which is why I'm still concerned the Emperor ordered such a Legion to capture someone, surely there were better choices and he could have left the Wolves to crusading in his name?

 

I'll admit we were a bit naughty and Russ probably should have tried capturing Magnus, even if his orders said to terminate, after all, what a great prize for daddy.

 

Bad boys, very bad boys we were...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Alexander was willing to assimilate other peoples, tribes and cultures into his empire

Yes. The OP said people. Blue-grey vagina headed aliens don't count as people in that regard.

 

They had those during the time of Alexander? :)

 

*Reaches for a marker pen and his copy of Plutarch*

 

It's the principle I'm talking about. :( Other tribes of humans are Alexander's equivalent of the alien races that the Emperor is encountering.

 

That very power could have prevented the Heresy from getting out of hand and saved himself if the Emperor got his head out of his arse and listened in the first place.

 

I think the Emperor was too busy sticking his head in the Imperial Throne Room and frantically blasting the millions of gribblies pouring into his palace to stick it anywhere else.

 

I only see words here that seem to actually defend the 1000 sons...

 

I would so love to see a version of this debate take place before the Nuremberg Trials. The difference in supporters would probably be quite large.

[Taeken]

You know, the Emperor could have partially believed Magnus and sent the Wolves to escort him home for 2 reasons: #1 to drag Magnus home if he was indeed turned and/or resisted.

#2 Help provide some safety for Magnus as they head back to confer with the Emperor. Two full leagions would definitly be harder to tackle for traitors than 1.

 

Or the third option is all of the above. Big E could have sent Russ to bring back Magnus knowing he would resist in some form, but also hedging his bets on the chance that Magnus was right so he had Russ there as the muscle incase they were attacked in transit.

[CainTheHunter]

You can't apply Nuremberg principles to the Imperium. Orders is everything what the Imperium is about in 41st millenium, and I doubt things were different in 31st one. Imperium is just one big fascist regime, where individual will and/or initiative does not count and to the contrary might be subject to eradication. You do not question orders from the Emperor, You do not question orders from Your Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest or the Great Wolf himself. In fact, if You are in a position to question orders from Great Wolf - i.e. You are a space marine from the Space Wolves Legion, You most probably can't even think about it, because all those courses of psychic conditioning and indoctrination had impact on Your mind - if not, then most probably You are not a Space Wolf, but dead meat somewhere on Fenris.

[Karack Blackstone]

If there is one thing that Warhammer 40,000 has made quite clear it is that thinking has been selected against as far as the Imperium is concerned towards the future of humanity.

 

Other than that, We Space Wolves (bar the others in this thread) tend to choose strong, courageous warriors who fight for honor, Russ, and the way of the Fang.

 

So by and large, thinking is sadly a rare thing in the 41'st Millenium, and in a way it is going to remain that way for some time. Ever since the "high lords" of Terra outlawed basically all innovation by humans and the support of only the STC's after the Emperor took the Golden Throne...

 

There is little to no reason to see how anyone like the Space Wolves that at least think for themselves now and then, unlike the rest of humanity, are going to be seen as heretics by the puritan Inquisition and by lineage of events, it would seem the Wolves have always had a negative attitude towards power and position not earned because of this event, assaulting Prospero without full reason to.

 

Horus' part in this is yet to be seen, and I think that most if not all of our troubles with authority started with this event.

[styx]

I agree another Primarch and his legion would have been better suited to go get Magnus, sending the Space Wolves was like throwing gasoline on an open fire.

[Taeken]

I agree another Primarch and his legion would have been better suited to go get Magnus, sending the Space Wolves was like throwing gasoline on an open fire.

 

 

Which is fun as hell... heh

[Grey Mage]

IIRC, The Emperor didn't want, and didn't order, the SW to 'destroy' the TS. Weren't the SW ordered to bring Magnus tot he Emperor (or some such) for his use of Sorcery.

 

Then on route, Horus gets wind, and decides to countermand the order and tell the SW to Destory the TS, as a way to get the SW out of the way of the attack on Terra? (With the SW not knowing then about the Warmasters betrayal).

 

So the SW were just 'following orders', and the Destruction o fthe TS lays in the hands of the Warmaster (and the Chaos God/s who wanted this to happen).

Yep, that is more or less how it went. Leman was ordered to escort Magnus back to the Emperor, and it was Horus who countermanded that order. I don't really see how he had authority to do this as Leman's orders came directly from the Emperor himself. Also, I like to know why Russ decided to follow Horus' orders instead of the Emperor's. What factor made him decide? Was there an external influence?, like an advisor that was not directly involved with the Space Wolf Legion? Don't forget the lodges! Were all the Wolves loyal to Russ or was there a small minority that were in league with Horus unbeknown to Russ (in the same way as there were a few loyal marines in the traitor legions).

 

Let's hope Abnett gets well soon and answers some of these questions.

 

Edit: And yes in the end I think we were right in attacking. An order is an order. If the Emperor disallowed the widespread use of psychic abilities, he did so for a reason. Magnus should have obeyed or did things with the Emperor's permission not in secret. Also, I enjoyed the fact that Leman kicked the sh#t out of Mr Big Blue (I know - very immature, but don't tell me there is a SW fan who didn't enjoy that part of the story!).

Horus was the Warmaster- the voice of the Emperor in all things. If Horus said something, then it was the same as the emperor *who wasnt talking much* saying it. So, when Russ was told by Horus that the plan had been changed then thats how it was- as far as Russ would have been concerned the emperor had decided upon the destruction of a third legion, and his would be the task of getting that job done.

 

I dont think there was any double dealing, there was no subterfuge on a deluded Russ or any such nonsense- Russ was sworn to the emperor, and the big E put Horus in command. Done.

 

The Legion did the right thing for their honor- they followed the orders that trickled down from the emperor, and the legion followed Russ. Without Astropaths there was no real way to double check the orders, no way of knowing that Horus was a Traitor at that point.

 

While it sucks that we had to do it, I have to agree with Abnett- in many ways its what we were built for. One of the smallest legions, and one of the most successful, we were there to be deaths of traitors and enemies alike. No, if any blame is to be had, it lays on Horus, and to a lesser extent on Magnus- who goes to such lengths to help the imperium, and then decides "nah, Ill go work with the guy who talked my brother into destroying my world, cause you know... its what all the cool kids are doing." Seriously, thats dumb.

 

Oh, and its Big Red actually- The true Wolf broke Clifford over his knee. He didnt turn blue until a few days afterwords when the bruising really set in.

[Icewolf]

I agree another Primarch and his legion would have been better suited to go get Magnus, sending the Space Wolves was like throwing gasoline on an open fire.

 

Which is always a good thing if there is someone who has defied the Emperor.

 

Icewolf

[Redbaron997]

Other than not liking the Emperors orders abuot sorcery the Thousand Sons were one of the most loyal legions to the Emperor IMHO.

 

Magnus had no want at all to turn, and in the end did it to save his sons.

 

Now the Space Wolfs had been given incorrect orders (Remember the Emperor sent them to fetch Magnus, and Horus changed it to kill them and thus eithier destroy them or force them to turn)

 

If you take the HH as cannon then Magnus was clearly trying to save Horus from Chaos and stop the war.

 

Basically Magnus was the big intellectual of the Primarchs and knew more about the warp than any other (based on what we know) The Emperor SHOULD have told all the Primarchs at least about the danger of Chaos, ESPICALLY Magnus.

 

but then again I think the Emperor is the one most responsable for the HH, but please dont kill me lol.

[Walter Payton]

The Emperor is Alexander of Macedon

 

Uh-uh. Alexander was willing to assimilate other peoples, tribes and cultures into his empire. By contrast, the Emperor is having all the aliens massacred.

 

The Imperium is crueller than the Emperor wished it to be, due to the corrupt rule of the High Lords of the Adeptus Terra. The Emperor was a more lenient and slightly kindlier man.

 

How? (that applies to the 'corruption' as well as the 'more lenient')

 

I see no difference between the actions of early Imperium and the later Imperium other than motivation.

 

I know that, Tyrak

 

The Emperor was willing to assimilate other peoples, just not aliens (and even then...Jokaero, Squats anyone?). The aliens are the Thebans in this case, or the Tyreans. The Interex are the Athenians or the Acaeans, who he assimilated. Or in this case would have done, Alex didn't have gits like Erebus to deal with.

 

Corruption is perhaps the wrong word. But the HL certainly rule for their own purposes. You said it. Motivation.

 

Lenient. Well, does the M41 Imperium really fit into the Emperor's vision for Humanity? Does it really? Do you think you would find someone like Horus (when he was good) murdering entire populations because of a single cult? Murdering those loyal to the Emperor who simply want small reform? No.

 

DO YOU THINK THE EMPEROR WOULD HAVE DONE WHAT THE ADMINISTRATUM DID TO THE PEOPLE OF ARMAGEDDON AFTER ANGRON'S INVASION?

[Walter Payton]

Alexander was willing to assimilate other peoples, tribes and cultures into his empire

Yes. The OP said people. Blue-grey vagina headed aliens don't count as people in that regard.

 

Anyway - who are you to question the Immortal Emperor?

 

What? I don't get it? Where do the Avatar people come into this? And don't use the v-word, this is a family forum.

[Karack Blackstone]

Thus why we Sons of Russ have such a heavy disregard for position that is not earned. If this is a new topic then so be it, but the High Lords are certainly flawed men, and easily corruptible. No mention is made for the method of replacement, indeed, if there is even one. Perhaps they have Space Marine implants to make them immortal? We just don't know.

 

As to sending in Russ' Sons being akin to gasoline on an open fire... Well, who else would be specialized enough to actually do harm to another legion? Curbing our enthusiasm is a bit hard, and I think we have figured out that Horus is to blame for giving us bad orders, and we have made corrections in the meantime after we followed them.

[eyeslikethunder]

On leman confirming his orders how can do this? The Emperor is trapped on the golden throne holding the gateway open after magnus's psychic message.

[Karack Blackstone]

Thus our problem, and why this topic is mostly a moot debate unless more information (books) sheds some additional light on the subject.

 

He really could not have done so, as he most likely would have tried. Being told to kill a brother, even one that was not liked SHOULD have seemed like a rather hard pill to take.

 

And if they make Russ an unthinking brute, I doubt I will have any respect left for Abnett. The other guy, he has the 1000 sons take on it, so we'll have to see.