DeathWatch Origin hypothesis

[Garik the Bold]

So, after my second time of reading Flight of the Eisenstein, I got a crazy idea. What if the Death Watch was founded by the remaining Loyalist Death Guard members. Also, the black on the armour could have come from black being the color of mourning, and also, they could recruit from other chapters, because there weren't enough remaining Death Guard. Also, at the end, the one guy said something about the Imperium needed people of Inquisitive nature.

 

 

Anyone find this plausible.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I like the idea, alot, but I don't see the transition from being pissed at Horus to being pissed at Xenos. I don't see a link, but I suppose there doesn't have to be. Maybe the Deathwatch was made up, originally, of all the loyalists of the traitor legions that survived (there might have been a few besides the ones on the Eisenstein). They couldn't be trusted to fight against their own brothers (and didn't have legions to belong to anymore), but they wanted to serve so were sent to slaughter Xenos.

 

It sounds more like fan fiction than solid fluff, but the idea has credence.

[Garik the Bold]

They might have originally thought of the creations of Nurgle to be from some exotic form of Xenos taint.

 

 

Well, didn't consider that when I got this idea.

[calgar101]

Its a good idea, as some people think that the death guard loyalists made up the grey knights, this is much more of a plausible idea.

[Garik the Bold]

The things I think of when I get bored in school.

 

Thanks.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I like the idea, alot, but I don't see the transition from being pissed at Horus to being pissed at Xenos.

 

How do explain the transition from fighting Xenos in the Great Crusade to fighting traitors in the Heresy then? :)

 

I would think that once the Scouring is over and done with the Loyalists will be quite keen to get on with what they were doing before they were interrupted.

 

Also, at the end, the one guy said something about the Imperium needed people of Inquisitive nature.

 

Just for anyone who's not aware, that's the only written evidence these theories have. The only other theory for the loyalist DG surviving the Heresy is in IA: DG and does not involve the Inquisition. Have fun speculating. :P

[Massawyrm]

Index Astartes III offers 4 possibilities to their end:

 

1) They all died in prison, never released because they could not be trusted.

2) They were released and Garro went on to become an Apothecary trying to find a cure for Nurgles Plague.

3) The 70 went on to become a Fire Hawks-esque Legion of the Damned flying the original, pre-heresy DG colors, fighting Nurgle in all his forms before vanishing like "gray ghosts" (most likely the origin of the ridiculous Gray Knight rumors.)

4) Garro and his crew eventually succumbed and Garro now serves as the LORD OF FLIES, dressed in black army with a clawed fist. Kinda like I modeled him here ;) :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/Massawyrm/lordofflies.jpg

[Monstra Sumus]

I personally like to believe Garro become the first active duty Inquisitor, what better than a man born of Terra, the men he calls closer than friend and brother turn traitor on him almost to a man and begin the mass slaughter of his beloved Imperiums citizens and civillians, who has nothing left and proved where his loyalties lay by confessing the truth to Dorn and the Sigilite. I think he deserves the chance to redeem his name, not his Legions by being the basis for an order to hunt their arses to the end of the galaxy and back.

 

My two pennies worth anyhow, coz if I was in charge of the Imperium at the time, i'd want Space Marines leading my Ordo's as apposed to men, but ten thousand years is a bit of a drain on resources.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Index Astartes III offers 4 possibilities to their end:

 

1) They all died in prison, never released because they could not be trusted.

2) They were released and Garro went on to become an Apothecary trying to find a cure for Nurgles Plague.

3) The 70 went on to become a Fire Hawks-esque Legion of the Damned flying the original, pre-heresy DG colors, fighting Nurgle in all his forms before vanishing like "gray ghosts" (most likely the origin of the ridiculous Gray Knight rumors.)

4) Garro and his crew eventually succumbed and Garro now serves as the LORD OF FLIES, dressed in black army with a clawed fist.

 

That's the ones. Also note that two of those possibilities (No. 2 and No. 4) were used in Flight of the Eisenstein for other characters.

 

I personally like to believe Garro become the first active duty Inquisitor

 

That's where my thinking leads me too. Both the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch aren't really involved in detective work, so an "inquisitive nature" doesn't really suit them. Plus I once read somewhere that the first Inquisitors were Space Marines - I can't remember where though, and if anybody knows where (or if it was/n't written at all) please could you tell me? It's been bugging me for some time.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To speculate upon the origin, you need to know how the timeline proceeded.

 

When each of the militant arms of the ==][== came into being may give you some idea to speculate on the origin, because I can't believe that each began at the sametime and as soon as the fledgling ==][== began.

 

Unless someone can prove otherwise?

[Prosedragon]

The loyalists from the traitor legions couldn't have been the original grey knights or deathwatch, because they all went on to form DIY chapters.

[StrangeGuy]

The loyalists from the traitor legions couldn't have been the original grey knights or deathwatch, because they all went on to form DIY chapters.

 

I laughed.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

To speculate upon the origin, you need to know how the timeline proceeded.

 

When each of the militant arms of the ==][== came into being may give you some idea to speculate on the origin, because I can't believe that each began at the sametime and as soon as the fledgling ==][== began.

 

Unless someone can prove otherwise?

 

The GKs were formed at the same time as the Second Founding (C:DH). The Deathwatch founding date is unknown. The Sisters of Battle were found by Vandire on San Leor in the 36th Millennium, and became the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus after the Age of Apostasy had finished.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To speculate upon the origin, you need to know how the timeline proceeded.

 

When each of the militant arms of the ==][== came into being may give you some idea to speculate on the origin, because I can't believe that each began at the sametime and as soon as the fledgling ==][== began.

 

Unless someone can prove otherwise?

 

The GKs were formed at the same time as the Second Founding (C:DH). The Deathwatch founding date is unknown. The Sisters of Battle were found by Vandire on San Leor in the 36th Millennium, and became the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus after the Age of Apostasy had finished.

 

With regards to the GKs that disproves any theories regarding Garro and his confederates, not least because all GKs have an innate psychic ability of whatever power.

 

I would imagine that the Deathwatch was formed sometime after the Sisters of Battle, at least in my own (often specious) reasoning, because I believe the ==][== drew manpower from IA/IG regiments as required, whereas after the Ordo Hereticus got round the "no man under arms" thing, that the Ordo Xenos did not want to be lacking in the balance of power.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I would imagine that the Deathwatch was formed sometime after the Sisters of Battle, at least in my own (often specious) reasoning,

 

It's not that unknown. ;) The general assumption seems to be that they were founded with the Ordo Xenos, in the same way that the Grey Knights were founded at the same time as the Ordo Malleus. IA: Grey Knights & Deathwatch might yield more clues (it's been replaced by C:DH for GKs, but it's DW stuff is still 'current').

 

whereas after the Ordo Hereticus got round the "no man under arms" thing,

 

The Decree Passive applies to the Ecclesiarchy, not the Inquisition. All the Ordos (not just the big three) can call on the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers if needed.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I would imagine that the Deathwatch was formed sometime after the Sisters of Battle, at least in my own (often specious) reasoning,

 

It's not that unknown. ;) The general assumption seems to be that they were founded with the Ordo Xenos, in the same way that the Grey Knights were founded at the same time as the Ordo Malleus. IA: Grey Knights & Deathwatch might yield more clues (it's been replaced by C:DH for GKs, but it's DW stuff is still 'current').

 

whereas after the Ordo Hereticus got round the "no man under arms" thing,

 

The Decree Passive applies to the Ecclesiarchy, not the Inquisition. All the Ordos (not just the big three) can call on the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers if needed.

 

See I would disagree with the founding of the Deathwatch, just because of the sense of mistrust that would have been around after the Heresy.. No matter that the survivng Legions still fough for the Emperor there MUST have been some sense of distrust there.

 

And that would be another case of my memory and/or interpretation being incorrect.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

See I would disagree with the founding of the Deathwatch, just because of the sense of mistrust that would have been around after the Heresy.. No matter that the survivng Legions still fough for the Emperor there MUST have been some sense of distrust there.

 

Surely that would make it logical to split off Marines from their parent Chapters/Legions and place them under human (Inquisitorial) command?

[Chaptermaster Graymantle]

Its an interesting idea and I like it!

It is all speculation off course, and I think that is part of the point from GW's side.

Often the background is there for you to make you own mind up about what is truth and what is not. - Much like real life history.

An other thing is that GW often do stuff like this to give the background story room to grow and for people to use it in their own stories, DIY Chapters etc.

Speculation keeps the universe alive and fresh.

 

For example, in the background story of the Guardian Angels Chapter, I hint that they may originally have been founded based on the remaining Loyalist Death Guard members.

Not as an official Chapter, but a a tiny battle group. But even there, this is only a hint and not an absolute truth. It could explain their affection for medical knowledge, why they have more Apothecaries than usual and why they have such a respectful caution towards the Warp and psychers.

 

Who knows? - The background is there to be used and speculated on, and like I said: I like your idea!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

See I would disagree with the founding of the Deathwatch, just because of the sense of mistrust that would have been around after the Heresy.. No matter that the survivng Legions still fough for the Emperor there MUST have been some sense of distrust there.

 

Surely that would make it logical to split off Marines from their parent Chapters/Legions and place them under human (Inquisitorial) command?

 

Well I don't believe so... Because at any one time how many Marines might be active from a particular Chapter? At most maybe ten or so? (Although the true of the Deathwatch is never even hinted at, IIRC).

 

What good is that when a Chapter is at least a thousand Marines? In theory yes it would possibly breed trust, but then do the Astartes require trust to fucntion?

[Kaled100]

I know a lot of people theorise that the Ordo Xenos was founded at around the same time as the Malleus, but I don't believe there's any evidence for that (at least, no one has ever been able to show me any) so I prefer to believe that in the early days of the Inquisition there were just general Inquisitors and those Inquisitors who were members of the Ordo Malleus (which also had the role of watching the watchers, as well as their investigations into the enemy beyond).

 

I figure that the Ordo Xenos was founded some time later - there's a reference in the timeline in the rulebook to a period where the Imperium was expanding and encountered many new alien races (I don't have the book handy, maybe it was around M33?). Perhaps around this time the Inquisitors who specialised in threats from alien races banded together and set up the Ordo Xenos to share resources. One of the resources they may have shared was the assorted favours and agreements they each had with various Chapters to supply marines should the situation warrent it - these agreements were later formalised to create the Deathwatch. I think an origin along those lines makes far more sense than tying yet another thing into the events surrounding the end of the Heresy.

 

I once read somewhere that the first Inquisitors were Space Marines - I can't remember where though, and if anybody knows where (or if it was/n't written at all) please could you tell me? It's been bugging me for some time.

I too have heard that, but after spending a considerable amount of time searching and asking around for a canonical source I've been forced to conclude that it was either regurgitated fanfic or someone reading too much into things like the end of FotE and stating opinion as fact. I've gone right back to Rogue Trader era sources and either it was written somewhere pretty obscure or it never existed.

 

Personally I prefer to think that if Garro had some role in the early Inquisition it wasn't as an Inquisitor, but in some of the less high profile, but absolutely essential, support roles involved in making the Inquisition a force to be reckoned with. If, and this is a big IF, he was involved in the early Grey Knights I figure it would not be as a GK himself, but as someone who'd faced the enemy beyond and who was well placed to train and advise members of the fledgling chapter.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I know a lot of people theorise that the Ordo Xenos was founded at around the same time as the Malleus, but I don't believe there's any evidence for that (at least, no one has ever been able to show me any)

 

AFAIK there's no evidence for any founding date at all, which is why we're speculating. <_<

 

I once read somewhere that the first Inquisitors were Space Marines - I can't remember where though, and if anybody knows where (or if it was/n't written at all) please could you tell me? It's been bugging me for some time.

I too have heard that, but after spending a considerable amount of time searching and asking around for a canonical source I've been forced to conclude that it was either regurgitated fanfic or someone reading too much into things like the end of FotE and stating opinion as fact. I've gone right back to Rogue Trader era sources and either it was written somewhere pretty obscure or it never existed.

 

*Bangs head on the desk* Why haven't you said so sooner?! :cuss

 

Because at any one time how many Marines might be active from a particular Chapter? At most maybe ten or so? (Although the true of the Deathwatch is never even hinted at, IIRC).

 

No idea.

 

What good is that when a Chapter is at least a thousand Marines? In theory yes it would possibly breed trust, but then do the Astartes require trust to fucntion?

 

Yes. Their whole brotherhood depends on trust, and the independence they get to enjoy is also dependent on the (sometimes grudging) trust of the Imperium.