Dreadnought

[Legatus]

Regular dreadnought pivoting comes after target selection as well, so where is the difference to fire frenzy?

Yes. But in regular shooting the player picks the target. In fire frenzy it is determined by the special rule. This issue is really that simple.

And the crux is that even in regular shooting only visible units ar eviable targets. If it is not within LOS, it cannot be picked as a target.

 

 

Legatus' argument is very long and comprehensive (though flawed) with quotes from all over the rulebook and codex. The other argument is concise and elegant (not in weapon arc = not viable target. Pick target in weapon arc, then pivot). Seriously, which do you really want to go with!?! I don't know any chaos players in the real world that actually nerf their own dreddys like that. Why would you? Last time I played a Chaos player we played dreads the sensible way and his still shot his guys on the turn it fire frenzied purely because of the positions our units has ended up in following a string of assaults. So you can play with less crap dreads and still kill your own guys if you really want to.

The suggestion that Walkers only have a 45° LOS arc is not entirely without negative consequences, though. It would mean that you could only freely select targets (no frenzy) in the shooting phase that are within that 45° arc. You could not spontaneously decide to target that enemy vehicle that was directly to the right of the walker. You would allways have to align your Dread in the movement phase according to what enemy unit you wanted to target, with the pivot during the shooting phase merely allowing you to slightly adjust the exact weapon arcs, and you could not spontaneously pick a different target that is not within the walkers arc.

It would also mean that enemy infiltrators could be deployed anywhere within 12" of that walker, as long as they stay out of the 45° front arc.

 

 

With regard to the whole Frenzying Dread issue there is also still the question whether or not a Dread that is not allowed to move during the movement phase is still allowed to turn during the movement phase. Yes, the rules for vehicle movement say that turning does not count as moving, and they only say that "immobilised" vehicles cannot turn, so RAW seems clear in this case. But can you honestly tell me that this does not feel like exploiting a rule that was simply not specific and detailed enough to you? (I.E. "No move" restriction is suppsed to include "no turning", but the rules do not say so.)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I always thought pivoting was movement, but that it didn't count for shooting purposes.

[Brother Vader]

The suggestion that Walkers only have a 45° LOS arc is not entirely without negative consequences, though. It would mean that you could only freely select targets (no frenzy) in the shooting phase that are within that 45° arc. You could not spontaneously decide to target that enemy vehicle that was directly to the right of the walker. You would allways have to align your Dread in the movement phase according to what enemy unit you wanted to target, with the pivot during the shooting phase merely allowing you to slightly adjust the exact weapon arcs, and you could not spontaneously pick a different target that is not within the walkers arc.

 

No, that's not the case. Under normal circumstances you pick the target from what you can see and can freely pivot your dread. Under fire frenzy the dread picks the target from what it can see. Fire frenzy still takes your target selection away from you this way (you may want to shoot the genestealers, but have to shoot the screening gaunts, for example), so it's not great, but it's far better than blowing your own guys up.

 

It would also mean that enemy infiltrators could be deployed anywhere within 12" of that walker, as long as they stay out of the 45° front arc.

 

Most armies have access to both infiltrators and walker, so it's the same for everyone. Something to bear in mind during deployment rather than game-breaking cheese!

[Legatus]

No, that's not the case. Under normal circumstances you pick the target from what you can see and can freely pivot your dread. Under fire frenzy the dread picks the target from what it can see.

It is what the walker can see in both cases. A unit cannot pick a target if it does not have LOS to it.

[Hellios]

No, that's not the case. Under normal circumstances you pick the target from what you can see and can freely pivot your dread. Under fire frenzy the dread picks the target from what it can see.

It is what the walker can see in both cases. A unit cannot pick a target if it does not have LOS to it.

 

Please explain to me how weapons with no LoS required work :P, your making my teacup cloudy :) and so you must clear it up!

[Legatus]

Please explain to me how weapons with no LoS required wor

If you want to be strict, hey don't. :(

 

--> "In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no models have line of sight then a different target must be chosen."

 

--> "Barrage weapons can fire at a target they cannot see, but if they do this, the BS of the firer makes no difference and the blast marker scatters a full 2D6" if an arrow is rolled on the scatter dice."

 

I just assume that "can fire at a target they cannot see" is supposed to include "can pick a target they cannot see". Strictly speaking at least some other models of the firing unit still have to have line of sight to the target, though the model firing the barrage weapon does not.

[chaplain belisarius]

I like chaos dreads, i like the model (but would love a plastic version...come on GW sort it out!).

 

Its a shame they are crazy...;)

[The 13th Goat]

Annoyes me that while we get stuck with the gawdaful crazy rule, Ork Dreds are somehow considered more "sane". Breaks the Dred and with Defilers available GW just shot themselves in the foot by making a unit no one ever wants to risk.

[40kChrista]

It is what the walker can see in both cases. A unit cannot pick a target if it does not have LOS to it.

 

This is true enough, but for keeping this on topic ... I guess :P , if there aren't any targets available to the Dreads front during Fire Frenzy, then I would relent and target my

unit behind the Dread as it would be "the closest unit", and it would also be the closest visible unit as well... because there would not be anything in the 45 degree hull mount

LOS.

 

And for pivoting, I don't think it's an issue.. all walkers have to pivot before firing, Fire Frenzy does not affect this part.

 

Grim

[trolly]

hi,

 

This topic, AGAIN! <_<

IMO this debate will come again and again until a better rulebook and new chaos marine dex come out.

And written by more capable writer.

I myself supported Legatus in this, but again I bumped into a wall called rulebook incompetence.

 

cheers,

:D

[nurglez]

personally, i too agree with Legatus, though since 4th edition chaos i only run my 2 dread's with twin ccw's, and they work fine.

 

Sure, this rule bites in 5th, having a dread spin around to shoot the nearest target and exposing its rear armour to enemies is annoying, but i do love dread's.

[Hellios]

Since the rules for vehicles give no limitations, I assume that they can draw LOS from any part of their hull in order to determine whether an enemy unit is within their LOS or not, similar to how Infantry models draw LOS from their "head" into any direction, and that then the weapon LOS arcs are used to determine whether that particular weapon can fire at the selected target or not. You would not have to face Infantry into the correct direction in order to have viable LOS to an enemy unit in the shooting phase, do you? I am sure everyone agrees that infantry can also pick a unit in their back that no member of the unit is actually facing. As Dreadnoughts are allowed to turn and face the picked target with their weapons, I assume it is teh same for them. Once a target has been picked, not all models of a unit would be allowed to shoot at it, though, as their individual LOS may be blocked.

 

Also, if you claim that vehicles can only draw a LOS to units based on their weapon arcs, then some vehicles will not prevent infiltrators to be placed within 12" right next to them in the open. Imagine for example a Dreadnought facing forward, and a unit of Genestealers being placed 12" away from him, as "the Dreadnought only has a 45° LOS arc forward".

 

 

Please can you clarify where infantry get a 360 degree view. I so far have found "this literally means the models eye view" which based on humans would be roughly 210 degrees maybe? I have also found rules that allow you to pivot infantry models during the shooting phase.

 

Now if this is the case if you pivot after selecting a target (rather than being able to do it before you select one) you would indeed need at least one member of the unit to see the unit you wanted to target. Interestingly enough I haven't found rules that say you need LoS to assault your target but if you know where they are tell me please :D.

[Legatus]

"Turning and Facing

(...) Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the shooting phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their Movement phase"

BRB, page 11

 

I would interprete that so that a model can indeed shoot (therefor, select as a target) at enemy models that are "behind" the model at the start of the shooting phase. If it was required for at least one model to actually face the desired target, then it would matter where the models were pointing at the end of the movement phase. According to that passage, though, it doesn't.

 

Units do not need LOS in order to assault. In WHFB they do, so perhaps that is where some people get it from.

[Hellios]

"Turning and Facing

(...) Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the shooting phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their Movement phase"

BRB, page 11

 

I would interprete that so that a model can indeed shoot (therefor, select as a target) at enemy models that are "behind" the model at the start of the shooting phase. If it was required for at least one model to actually face the desired target, then it would matter where the models were pointing at the end of the movement phase. According to that passage, though, it doesn't.

 

Units do not need LOS in order to assault. In WHFB they do, so perhaps that is where some people get it from.

 

But if you have 360 line of site you wouldn't need to turn to face. Ofc if you can turn before you select a target (but still in the shooting phase) it is all good.

[Legatus]

To be honest, I do not usually turn around all the models in a unit to face the way they are shooting. Though I sometimes do that with the heavy weapons for dramatic effect.

[Hellios]

To be honest, I do not usually turn around all the models in a unit to face the way they are shooting. Though I sometimes do that with the heavy weapons for dramatic effect.

 

Well for reasons of practicality I agree, I myself am normally facing the right way from my movement but in big games it would take a long time... especially if I use all 400 of my IG. However even if everyone plays it that way (and I personally wouldn't rule nazi this far) but we could still be playing it wrong... I only ask because I wish to find the truth :cuss.

[Legatus]

I base LOS more on a "where could that guy be looking right now", so I assume models can look around. Vehicles do not have "heads", but they have viewing slots or sensors. There are no rules for where those sensors or viewing slots are located, so I assume the crew can see all around the vehicle (it would be highly impractical for moving backwards if they couldn't).

 

When shooting vehicle weapons, that's a different issue. Weapons are attached at different points, so not all weapons could potentially be pointing all in the same direction. This is especially relevant for immobile vehicles, where a sponson weapon could not realistically shoot at enemy models on the other side of the vehicle. Even if the vehicle crew might be able to spot them on the other side, and declare them a target, the sponson weapon could still not draw an individual LOS to them and thus not shoot at them.

 

Though the rules do not specifically describe a distinction between "spotting LOS" and "weapon LOS", I feel that the specific section about vehicle weapons needing individual LOS to be able to shoot a sufficient specification compared to the "regular LOS", which is not only used for shooting purposes but also for other game elements such as where infiltrators can be placed.