Berzerkers with Iron warriors

[ninjabat]

Hi all, I am fairly new to the chaos legios in general, and have a 2000 point iron warriors army. I have read the storm of iron and wanted to incorporate a kroeger like berzerker squad in my legion, but my regular gaming mate told me i was unable to, however there is nothing in the codex that i can find that says i cant. Am i doing something wrong, or is my mate (black legion) lying,

thanks

-BK

[40kChrista]

Your exactly right... there is nothing in the Chaos 'Dex that prevent you from doing this. I don't collect Iron Warriors, however... if I remember right..., they used to take Berzerkers in the fluff and even had an option to do this in an older 'Dex.

 

I could be wrong though, hopefully some of the Vet. Iron Warrior Commanders can help clarify it a bit more.

 

Grim

[IronWinds]

4th ed chaos codex. There is no such things as IWs. There are just differently painted Chaos renegade armies. Anyone can take anything.

 

NOW holding to the fluff the IWs do not worship the gods and don't normally take cult units. In the 3.5 CSM codex they couldn't take any cult units. In their index astartes article which was prior to that they could take 1 squad of bezerkers. So in keeping with the fluff I would say 1 squad of zerkers and no other cult units would be fluffy for IWs.

[ninjabat]

thank you very much, one squad of berzerkers it is

[chillin]

As others have said, you can take anything in any army you want in this dex. But since brzrkrs were allowed in the IW's IA, even most fluff nazi's like myself consider brzrkrs totally fluffy for IW's. Also as you said there were brzrkrs in both the IW's booksn and although the BL books are not considered canon it does go toward making it seem fluffy.

[Possessed Marine]

Usually I cop out & say that they're working for the warmaster... but that apparently won't work in this situation, but, still nothing really preventing you from doing it

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Zerks w/ IW? Hell yeah! I play Raider Rush IW (Breachtakers!) and include 2 squads of Zerks at all points leveles (over 1000).

[Nessisbest]

I believe you can take berzerkers for the IW, cuz I use berzerkers all the time with my renegades! and the codex doesn't say anything of not being able to take them with IW or any other chaos army either.

[nurglez]

and, you could always just do what alot of other people have done with various armies and just convert up a bunch of iron warriors with bionics and stuff, and use the rules for zerkers :D

[Dreathor]

Well you have to remember that no matter how mortals intend life to go, some just find them going down a certain path. It is exactly the same with marines like the Iron Warriors. They intend to worship an undivided pantheon of Chaos but some of the more bloodthirsty or martial of the marines may find themselves traveling further down the path of Khorne. Kroegar would of course be a good example of this, and if you remember rightly, Honsou almost feels this pull himself at times during the book. My friend, also an Iron Warrior player, painted his Khorne Bezerkers in iron warriors colors and that works for him. At the end of the day, it is up to the individual conscience of the player. I myself did not like using them and sold them to said friend, but I personally see no problem with other sons of perturabo using them.

[IronWinds]

They intend to worship an undivided pantheon of Chaos but some of the more bloodthirsty or martial of the marines may find themselves traveling further down the path of Khorne.

 

The only problem with that is that your describing Word Bearers and not Iron Warriors. IWs don't really 'worship' the chaos gods. They see them more as a means to an end. To the IWs the chaos gods are giant warp entities that can be harnessed and allied with to accomplish thier goals... not so much gods to be worshipped. IWs don't even like mutation, if you worshipped the gods wouldn't you treasure the touch of the gods? The IWs don't, they chop off mutations and replace them with possessed bionics. They don't want the demons inside of themselves, but they have no problem trapping a demon inside a piece of machinery and then using that instead of an arm. I think that is a pretty good example of using chaos to achieve your goals but not surrendering yourself to it.

 

IWs don't use demons for the same reason.

 

I've always seen IW bezerkers in 2 ways. You have one group that are just left overs of the WEs that are working with the IWs. The IWs trust no one so they keep them on a short leash, and the bezerkers don't care, they get to ride on the IWs ships to battlezones across the galaxy... and unlike joining just any rag tag warband they know the IWs are organized and that they will make the sky rain fire on their enemies so the zerkers will never be put into a situation where they get mowed down before having a chance to get into combat. A win win for the IWs and the WEs. IWs wouldn't want to rely on allies from other legions because it is harder to trust them. Bezerkers are clear... they want to kill, give them something to kill and you have nothing to worry about. Plague marines get your guys sick, Thousand Sons are trying to implement you in some greater scheme(IWs don't like being played), and noise marines... are well just noise marines.

 

My other view of IW zerkers. In every Grand Company there were marines that were tasked with charging the breach once one was formed. They were hth specialists in every battle. Do I think they 'worship' khorne, no? Do I think in the heat of battle and bloodshed it is good to feel as though a powerful warp entity has your back even if your warsmith sent you on a suicide mission... of course. Even Kroegar didn't really appear to 'worship' khorne. He heard his call, and he would ask for his assistance before a battle, but you didn't see him building altars out of skulls for his blood god either.

 

What I didn't mention in my earlier post is that many 3.5 IW armies... including my own, had 8 man squads of chaos marines equipped for HtH with the furious charge veteran skill. And many of us used silver khorne bezerker models as our fluffly IW bezerkers. They were not as far gone as khorne bezerkers, but they were still close combat specialists that sought Khorne's favor.

 

Thats at least my opinion of IW zerkers. Thoughts?

[DrDoom]

Depends on which Codex you want to listen to:

 

2nd Edition, 3rd Edtion, 4th Edition: yep

 

3rd Edition Index Astartes: Yep but limited

 

3.5: Nope.

[chillin]

They intend to worship an undivided pantheon of Chaos but some of the more bloodthirsty or martial of the marines may find themselves traveling further down the path of Khorne.

 

My other view of IW zerkers. In every Grand Company there were marines that were tasked with charging the breach once one was formed. They were hth specialists in every battle. Do I think they 'worship' khorne, no? Do I think in the heat of battle and bloodshed it is good to feel as though a powerful warp entity has your back even if your warsmith sent you on a suicide mission... of course.

 

And many of us used silver khorne bezerker models as our fluffly IW bezerkers. They were not as far gone as khorne bezerkers, but they were still close combat specialists that sought Khorne's favor.

 

IMO both these 2 definations of IW's "brzrkrs" are correct. the desperate, kill or be killed, bloody work of storming breaches eather drives them towards khorn or opens a door throw which khorne can enter. The alternative would be that, through battle field experience, they just become very skilled a stormimg breaches and hth specialist, vet's with FC vets skills, having nothing to do with khorne (out in the open anyway <_< ).

 

Eather way I think that IW "brzrkrs" should be painted in reg IW's colors (as IW's said) also have reg csm helmits, not the bunny ear helmits of the WE's.

[chaplain belisarius]

One, maybe two units of berzerkers to act as a forlorn hope, is ok...anything more and you should be playing world eaters!

[Innus Bade 9]

I take the Iron Warriors to be an undivided army whose only real limitation is no daemons. There is no restrictions fluff or codex wise that would prevent them from using cult troops. I know that they dont worship any god in particular, that said it doesnt mean that you cant use the cult troop abilities and justify it with a fluffy story. Just like we justify any other part of the army. Cult troops all the way, again undivided army.

[The_Crippster]

We get this question so much at Chaos Ascendant ><

[Lexington]

4th ed chaos codex. There is no such things as IWs. There are just differently painted Chaos renegade armies. Anyone can take anything.

Actually, realistically, there's no such thing as Renegade armies - just differently-painted Traitor Legions. :tu:

[Doom_Angel]

I take 1 squad of zerks in my IW army, paint them IW colours no bunny ears and blend the arms up from brown to off red over the silver to represent years of bloodstains building up.aspiring champ has the same effect on his helmet annd chest plate

my fluff take is the forlorn hope/breach assult units that have felt the pull of the blood god and sworn never to clean the blood of an enemy from there armour,

[Rain]

There is no restrictions fluff or codex wise that would prevent them from using cult troops. I know that they dont worship any god in particular, that said it doesnt mean that you cant use the cult troop abilities and justify it with a fluffy story. Just like we justify any other part of the army. Cult troops all the way, again undivided army.

 

Uh yeah, there are fluff restrictions. Now of course you can justify anything given your own fluff and the new codex allows anything, but there are canon fluff restrictions. Thing is, the Iron Warriors distrust the gods and would therefore never give themselves to any god enough to become full fledged cult troops. The only exception is berzerkers, as they have been specifically mentioned and since becoming a berzerker has less to do with worship and more with just mass killing, which (as has been brought up) breach taker IW's do anyway.

 

So it's kind of accidental, they kill folks, Khorne approves and gives them gifts, they kill more folks. This is also why my "berzerkers" are kitbashed with undivided bits, sporting no bunny ears and have all Khorne symbols filed off, they are berzerkers, but they don't really know they are. They also have more corroded armor than the normal marines as I don't see them quite as devoted to hygiene.

 

All of the other cult troops require a conscious worship of their patron god, which Iron Warriors would frown on greatly, especially in the case of Plague Marines or Thousand Sons, who by the way are members of another legion and the IW's canonically distrust all other legions. That said, would it be conceivable for an IW sorcerer to favor (and be favored by) Tzeentch or for a specific especially self loving IW to have a Slaaneshi side? Sure, but probably not in the degree that they would actually have the appropriate mark, and they would probably keep it somewhat secret as their cold and logical brothers might see them as a liability to be disposed of.

[A D-B]

So it's kind of accidental, they kill folks, Khorne approves and gives them gifts, they kill more folks. This is also why my "berzerkers" are kitbashed with undivided bits, sporting no bunny ears and have all Khorne symbols filed off, they are berzerkers, but they don't really know they are. They also have more corroded armor than the normal marines as I don't see them quite as devoted to hygiene.

 

Sorry to be That Guy, but do you ever post pics? Because I'd love to see them, they sound killer.

 

(Also, your sig quote was my fave bit of Diablo I. Scared the pants off me, way back when.)

[Lexington]

Uh yeah, there are fluff restrictions. Now of course you can justify anything given your own fluff and the new codex allows anything, but there are canon fluff restrictions.

Fluff restrictions? I'd say fluff 'suggestions,' at best. Sure, the Iron Warriors aren't going to be worshipping any of the gods themselves, but the Legions aren't exclusive, coherent groups. Groups of Chaos Space Marines are quite often hodgepodge gatherings of several allegiances. A Sorcerer of the Thousand Sons and his cohort of walking armor is a valuable asset, and could well have a pact with this group of IWs, exchanging his service for any arcane lore that's dug up from their conquests or whatnot.

 

Really, the Index Astartes/3.5-era notion of the Traitor Legions only travelling and fighting with their own was an anomaly compared to the much more steadily-advanced background of the Legions as mixed forces.

[Lay]

Well, it's "suggested" that Iron Warriors rarely ally with other Legions.

Really, the Index Astartes/3.5-era notion of the Traitor Legions only travelling and fighting with their own was an anomaly compared to the much more steadily-advanced background of the Legions as mixed forces.

Actually, the 3.5 Codex stated that it could be used to represent both mixed and themed armies.

[Rain]

Sorry to be That Guy, but do you ever post pics? Because I'd love to see them, they sound killer.

 

(Also, your sig quote was my fave bit of Diablo I. Scared the pants off me, way back when.)

 

Well I lack a digital camera and although I can take pictures with my phone, when I attempt to do so this happens http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Allelsewastaken/Mobile%20Uploads/0_1-1.jpg

[Dark Mechanicum]

Blurry but nice from what I can see.

 

On Fluff: Most undivided armies have those that "break" away from the norm. In Soul Hunter (and i'm really starting to feel like that guy in always mentioning it) you had NL's who didn't worship other gods but did utilize gifts of theirs. There was also those that DID worship the gods, good example is

The Exalted in his worship of Tzeetch

 

 

Its the 10,000 years of warp living, some just like the gods. Even Kroeger worshipped Khorne in his own way, just not as fanatical as the World Eaters.

[A D-B]

Blurry but nice from what I can see.

 

Seconded. I think it works really well.

 

On Fluff: Most undivided armies have those that "break" away from the norm. In Soul Hunter (and i'm really starting to feel like that guy in always mentioning it) you had NL's who didn't worship other gods but did utilize gifts of theirs.

 

Lord of the Night, too. Sahaal calls on them for attention, or luck, or a blessing or something, at one point. The Night Lords IA is nicely clear in how they believe they use Chaos as a weapon, "employing the Hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour", though they "have nothing but scorn for faith in all its forms, whether it be the fanatical bloodlust of the Khorne Berzerker or the devotion of the Imperial Creed."

 

I guess with Undivided Legions, it really comes down to personal preference. I see nothing wrong with a Word Bearer, Night Lord or Iron Warrior squad that raises an icon of any particular god to call down that god's blessings - or maybe they were chosen, and personally corrupted because they had such potential. I mean, it's probably not a good idea (and it sure as hell can't be very common), and I can see their Legion-mates being less than thrilled, but it's war. In war, you do whatever you need to do, and there will always be plenty of people that comport themselves in... less than honourable ways, by the standards of their own armies and cultures.

 

Still, though. Icons of Chaos Undivided. Chaos as a concept, as a truth, and as a weapon. That's where it's at.

 

There was also those that DID worship the gods, good example is

The Exalted in his worship of Tzeetch

 

Context, though. It's not revealed (yet...) just why

the Exalted is at the point he's at. He seems to embrace Tzeentch now, but a lot depends on how that jazz all started.

Ahem.