Do Marines "need" LR Deathstars?

[Gornall]

Title basically says it all. In the 5th Edition metagame (and assuming around 1850), do Marines need units such as TH/SS Termies in LRs to counter other deathstars or are those points better spent on a more distributed approach?

[spartan249]

If you read my stuff in that All-comers tourney thread, you know my answer.

 

No, we don't need TH/SS termies in a land raider. It's cheaper to buy in terms of models, but having more models on the field = more targets to aim at, so high cost "deathstars" end up wiping out little 100 point chunks of the army instead of 200-400 point chunks of it.

[Grey Mage]

No, there is no need for them. You have to remember the cost-benefit analysis.

 

Sure, I can get 6 PF attacks and 36 PW attacks off the charge with 10 WG and a Priest in a LRR, but are there really many units I need that kind of killing power against? And when there are isnt there other, frankly more effective all around, ways of getting the same job done for the 700pts that would cost me?

 

Every time I see a LR full of TH+SS termies I smile, because I know a dozen ways to smack that unit down like a judo throw on the table top and my opponent often doesnt have the points to win once his uber-unit is crippled.

[Giga]

Depends what codex you play.

 

CSM and SW don't need it, because they have reliable stuff all around that can do the skullsmashin' in close combat.

 

As for vanilla, I believe th/ss in LR are invaluable, as they fill in a niche that the army is otherwise lacking. The problem begins when players fall into the eggs-in-basket syndrome. Of course, there's also spartan249's approach, but sadly many people are unable to make his lists due to the sheer amount of models pull it off.

[ShinyRhino]

No way. I've NEVER fielded a Land Raider. Ever. I own one, new in the box, but have much more pressing items to assemble and paint, like my last four Bikers (which would complete my two full squads of 8 with attack bikes), more Rhinos, and a trio of Landspeeders.

Single-tactic units liek that just don't appeal to me. It's an impetus for me to field my Librarian with Machine Curse.

[minigun762]

Title basically says it all. In the 5th Edition metagame (and assuming around 1850), do Marines need units such as TH/SS Termies in LRs to counter other deathstars or are those points better spent on a more distributed approach?

 

I'm a Chaos player but I'd agree that you don't need it. However you do need some kind of counter-assault unit, something to stop my Daemon Prince from punching your Tac squads faces for a few turns.

 

For my money, 10 man Assault Squads with either an attached Chaplain or Librarian are great buys. 2 Flamers/Power Fist can handle a Gaunt squad or tackle a Daemon Prince and the IC's buffs usually outweigh the fact that they're not super killy by themselves.

 

The best part is this squad runs you 350ish points, which is anywhere from 100-350 points less.

[Gornall]

I've considered Assault Marines, but I've been afraid that Lash and Pieplate IG would make them cry too much. I guess they could be held in reserve to threaten 18" of board when they come in, but is it worth it?

[minigun762]

I've considered Assault Marines, but I've been afraid that Lash and Pieplate IG would make them cry too much. I guess they could be held in reserve to threaten 18" of board when they come in, but is it worth it?

 

Cover saves for the pie plates (or run behind a Land Raider or something like that)

For Lash, if its within range to Lash you, you're within range to block it with a Hood. Its not 100% but its something.

 

There is always the Drop Pod version. Take a Avenger Librarian and thats 3 template attacks once you hop out.

[Giga]

Assault squads just dont cut it as dedicated counter-assault units. Sure, they can slaughter ork boyz, and tau, and necrons, and guard, and gaunts... But do you really need a dedicated assault unit for that?

 

On the other hand, what are you going to do when a close combat tyrant with 3 guards comes knocking at your door? Or when two warptime princes happen to close in? Or when a pair of trygons deep strike around your tanks? Or when two bloodthirsters show up? Or when that CSM sergeant explodes into a greater daemon? Or a bunch of nobz says hello?

 

It would be nice to assume that we can just keep the assault squads for the squishier stuff, while killing the tougher stuff with shooting but... Enemy target saturation and your luck often conspire to prevent this, and that one close combat carnifex or flying daemonprince that got into assault are more then capable of decimating doing enough damage to turn the game.

 

This same assault squad also suffers from helluva lot of problems, like ordnance weapons, lack of invulnerable save, lack of scoring power, lash of submission, doom of malan'tai, lack of multiple power weapons, death from being in terrain, etc. Not to mention that with a chaplain, two flamers, and a powerfist, assault squad costs like 350 pts anyway, at which point you might as well pay 100 points more and get a LR with termies.

 

 

 

 

Which is why vanilla marines have two options when it comes to counter-assault;

 

1) th/ss termies in a LR, simply because they're by far the most reliable option we have, and because when used properly they really are invaluable, AND because that LR is also great transport for a killy HQ.

 

2) forgetting all about a dedicated counter-assault unit and simply doing what spartan249 does - make a list with so much mobile firepower and so few obvious target that you simply don't NEED a dedicated counter-assault unit.

[Koremu]

You can't really say that the Land Raider + Termis is only 100 points more than Assault Squad + Charlie, as the Charlie is your HQ unit, which you'd have to buy anyway.

[Giga]

You can't really say that the Land Raider + Termis is only 100 points more than Assault Squad + Charlie, as the Charlie is your HQ unit, which you'd have to buy anyway.

Technically, that's true, but Charlie is a crappy HQ unit that's supposed to make a crappy assault squad a little less crappy. With all those great HQs (support and otherwise) available to vanilla, taking a charlie is a waste of valuable HQ slot, IMHO.

[minigun762]

You can't really say that the Land Raider + Termis is only 100 points more than Assault Squad + Charlie, as the Charlie is your HQ unit, which you'd have to buy anyway.

Technically, that's true, but Charlie is a crappy HQ unit that's supposed to make a crappy assault squad a little less crappy. With all those great HQs (support and otherwise) available to vanilla, taking a charlie is a waste of valuable HQ slot, IMHO.

 

Thats why I included a range of point difference.

If you only run 5 TH/SS Terminators in a normal Land Raider, its only 100 points less.

 

If you run 7 TH/SS Terminators + Vulcan or something equivalent + LRC = twice as expensive.

[Giga]

You don't need 7 terminators. 5-6 are more then enough.

 

Vulkan in a LR with 5 termies = a million times more effective and generally more useful then any assault squad out there, and only about twice as expensive.

 

The trick is to avoid the all-eggs-in-one-basket syndrome.

[chaplain_quint]

You don't need 7 terminators. 5-6 are more then enough.

 

Vulkan in a LR with 5 termies = a million times more effective and generally more useful then any assault squad out there, and only about twice as expensive.

 

The trick is to avoid the all-eggs-in-one-basket syndrome.

 

Then how would you build a list that covers all corners? So that the Stormhammers don't become the Syndrome. What would you add?

[minigun762]

The trick is to avoid the all-eggs-in-one-basket syndrome.

 

Which is difficult to do with any unit that requires a Land Raider to be effective. In a 1500 point, its fully 41% of your entire army in one basket. Even at 2k its still nearly 1/3.

 

Land Raiders are tough and so are TH/SS Terminators but most people run meta against LR rush for this exact reason. A Chaos player could send 3x squads of Termicide against this unit and still only be spending 1/2 its points.

 

Just from my perspective, that is the big (potential) drawback. You are completely reliant on having an operation Land Raider to make the squad useful.

[ShinyRhino]

Just from my perspective, that is the big (potential) drawback. You are completely reliant on having an operation Land Raider to make the squad useful.

 

Exactly. Our local metagame contians some skilled Tau players with railguns and markerlights galore, my Mech/Bike speed list, and a bunch of other lists that can take a Land Raider apart. The only time a Land Raider is a real problem for me is when they're fielded in pairs, or when it's a Capture and Control mission.

[minigun762]

Just from my perspective, that is the big (potential) drawback. You are completely reliant on having an operation Land Raider to make the squad useful.

 

Exactly. Our local metagame contians some skilled Tau players with railguns and markerlights galore, my Mech/Bike speed list, and a bunch of other lists that can take a Land Raider apart. The only time a Land Raider is a real problem for me is when they're fielded in pairs, or when it's a Capture and Control mission.

 

Which is why I mentioned in the "all comers tourney topic" that a TH/SS squad really has to be built into an army, it can't just be added as the ultimate "oh crap" button.

 

Thats not to say you can't/shouldn't use it but if you are, you need to build your army around that kind of point investment.

[Fintan]

Personally I'd say no, you don't need to field them. The points invested in a unit like that are so large that a good melta-shot can really ruin your day, once your terminators are footslogging it's 1500 points versus 1000 points and that never ends well. Personally I think that deathstar units encourage unimaginative play that's very easy to counter, I've yet to lose to an army fielding a Landraider full stop!

[Grey Mage]

Assault squads just dont cut it as dedicated counter-assault units. Sure, they can slaughter ork boyz, and tau, and necrons, and guard, and gaunts... But do you really need a dedicated assault unit for that?

 

On the other hand, what are you going to do when a close combat tyrant with 3 guards comes knocking at your door? Or when two warptime princes happen to close in? Or when a pair of trygons deep strike around your tanks? Or when two bloodthirsters show up? Or when that CSM sergeant explodes into a greater daemon? Or a bunch of nobz says hello?

I would smack myself upside the head and ask myself how such a unit arrived at my gunline without taking enough fire to let a PF seargent take them apart. I would reevaluate my tactics and learn from the errors I had made in that battle, and ask my opponent for a rematch sometime soon wether I won or lost so I might implement my reformed ideas.

 

Two Bloodthirsters? They should be shot down to manageable level before their winged forms can hit me. Bad dice luck can make that not happen... but that same roll of bad luck means that my TH+SS TDA are all dead if thats what I was rolling on instead.

 

No, far better to get two tacticals and an assault squad for the price of that 6 wound 1 vehicle unit.

 

Are they powerful? Undeniably so. Are they needed? Not in the least.

[Cyberdog]

As Ork player I can honestly say and marine player i might say that for me stopping LR is one big mean problem as Orks unfortunately do not have the means to stop it effectively (I do not speak about charging it with boss with nobz)

 

And Stormhammer squad? yeah, they are predictable, but come on - not every time you manage to kill tough guys with just shooting. Say it to tyrants and Nobz on bikes. if anybody would say that he managed to kill nobz with just devastators or tacticals i would say that ork player was doing something wrong.

 

Stormhammer is not necessary when you play good fluffy friendly game. But if you meet some of those munchkins?

[Grey Mage]

What about GHs? I dont really care if you believe me or not, but Ive killed Nob Bikerz with GHs over and over again. Why? Because I know that its a 700-800pt unit, and I allocate about 700-800pts of firepower and CC to it. Not in one unit though... but in 3 or 4.

 

It works alot better than the local TH+SS players- who will randomly flub their attacks, or their saves, and find themselves gone.

[Gornall]

It works alot better than the local TH+SS players- who will randomly flub their attacks, or their saves, and find themselves gone.

 

I am all for more dice >>> better dice. I know I've lost several games from one bad CC with TH/SS Termies. However, I've also had games where that Bloodthirster makes it into combat with a Combat Squad, kills 3 and I can't get away and make enough of my No Retreat saves where I stick around for another round. He then comes out in my turn and proceeds to eat something else... all the time with 1-2 wounds left. Is there a middle ground?

[Storm Hawks Legion]

I take a LRC and TH/SS termies every game, not together though, they go up to a ten man tac squad in droppod and say can we jack your ride here? you can ours if it makes you feel better. Why; because it is so much fun to watch my opponents face as he goes "ha i just put your butcher in the middle of my kill zone with no way...why are you deploying a tac squad by the ruins of...(droppod lands right next to his juicy HQ/elite/counter assault unit)oh..." and i have a tac squad by the center objective, where i wanted them anyway.

 

so how's that for unimaginative and easily defeated tactics of the over used over valued and over priced essential unit from hell?

 

i like my LRC so much i took it to a 500point game...and kicked butt

[LardO'Blood]

I love my LRC/LRR and tactical terminator combo, I don't really have much love for assault terminators though. The LRC/LRR (Its changeable) charges up the middle (Or wherever the enemy has the most lightly armored points) smash them with guns then assault and take out survivors. It works really well, with LRC I get 22 bolter shots (Hurricane and storm bolters), 8 AC shots (Terminator squad has assault cannon), 1 MM shot. About 18 bolter shots hit, 6 AC shots hit and the MM hits, that translates to 18 4+ hits (On toughness 4) 6 2+ rending hits, 1 2+ melta hit. That translates to about 12 wounds, one instant death wound and 1 rending wound (I think). Against MEQ thats 6 wounds and then in CC 27 powerfist attacks and 3 power weapon attacks, assuming no casualties thats 13 attacks that wound on 2+ and 1 attack that wounds on 4+ which goes to 10 instant deaths, thats a 16 man squad that got whiped out, take a 6 inch move in any direction and repeat.

[Giga]

Then how would you build a list that covers all corners? So that the Stormhammers don't become the Syndrome. What would you add?

We discuss that in this thread;

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=185994

 

In short, the best way to go about this is to;

 

- pedro cantor, so you have big sternguard + termies in LR as dual hammer units

- bike captain/khan, so you can have bikes + termies in LR as dual hammer units

- spartan249 way, that doesn't have any hammer units but actually has the entire army formed of mini-hammer units

- good ol' vulkan build where it's the amount of killy stuff in your army is so great the opponent has to get very lucky or die very fast

Which is difficult to do with any unit that requires a Land Raider to be effective. In a 1500 point, its fully 41% of your entire army in one basket. Even at 2k its still nearly 1/3.

 

Land Raiders are tough and so are TH/SS Terminators but most people run meta against LR rush for this exact reason. A Chaos player could send 3x squads of Termicide against this unit and still only be spending 1/2 its points.

 

Just from my perspective, that is the big (potential) drawback. You are completely reliant on having an operation Land Raider to make the squad useful.

In theory, yes. In truth, no.

 

Unless my opponent gets extremely lucky (such as managing to seize initiative and then blast my LR in turn 1 with a lascannon shot after I failed my cover save), the LR fulfills its purpose 9 times out of 10. Against many opponents and in many situations, you don't even need the LR's mobility at all. Very often when I play my assault termies don't do anything, or do very little, and yet I still win those battles.

 

The sheer threat of termies in a LR, combined with the effort required to neutralize that unit creates massive target saturation that usually turns entire battles around. Its sheer presence on the battlefield (or in reserves) allows me to control the way the battle goes.

 

One thing, also; I rarely, if ever, expect the LR to survive the battle. In fact, I usually have higher life expectancy of my rhinos and my predator, and it'll be a snowy day in hell when my mm/hf speeder squadron dies before my LR does.

 

Another philosophy I have is that, when things are seriously not going my way (my LR and transports in general get immobilized/wrecked early on, my dice sux, my opponent's dice rocks, etc.) is to stop trying to win and start trying to draw. By changing the goal, I can get great use even out of a footslogging th/ss squad.

I would smack myself upside the head and ask myself how such a unit arrived at my gunline without taking enough fire to let a PF seargent take them apart. I would reevaluate my tactics and learn from the errors I had made in that battle, and ask my opponent for a rematch sometime soon wether I won or lost so I might implement my reformed ideas.

 

Two Bloodthirsters? They should be shot down to manageable level before their winged forms can hit me. Bad dice luck can make that not happen... but that same roll of bad luck means that my TH+SS TDA are all dead if thats what I was rolling on instead.

And yet why rely on firepower to deal with these things, when you can have a lovely reliable counter-assault unit that can do the same job while at the same time providing target saturation & a nice set of TL-ed lascannons? ;)

 

Let's take a usual situation;

 

We're playing against CSM. They got let's say two warptime daemon princes, a bunch of troops, and a bunch of obliterators and, say, a defiler. Obliterators are standing in terrain far away, defiler is behind cover. They're shooting at you. The rest of the army advances so they can assault/contest objectives.

 

Without th/ss termies in a LR, I'm forced to shoot the daemon princes and the incoming rhinos, or they'll tear me apart. If I ignore them and go after defiler & obliterators, I'm more or less doomed to have my weaker close-combat dudes get owned by their superior assault forces. This means I'm accepting the fact that I'm going to spend at least 2 or 3 turns getting shot up by a bunch of lascannons/plasmacannons and a battlecannon. I don't like that.

 

When I have th/ss and LR, I prefer to shoot the bejesus out of the obliterators and the defiler (as they are the ones who can truly kill me), and immobilize/stun/destroy the rhinos. The daemon princes, on the other hand, are bound to try to assault me sooner or later. By destroying their long-range shooting first I prevent them from easily opening my transports, thus preventing the princes from assaulting non-vehicle units. So not only are they starved for assault targets, they're also aware that as soon as they come within 20" of my land raider, they're getting assaulted by thunder hammer termies. Th/ss termies in this regard are very reliable in that I can be almost absolutely sure that they WILL kill a daemon prince (or a trygon, or an assault carnifex, or a unit of zerkers, etc.) in a single turn, especially if you drop null zone in. :)

 

Do you understand my philosophy here, and why it works for me? I'm first capable of dwindling their anti-tank, and then when their killy assault stuff comes near, I'm capable of beating them in their own game. This exact same philosophy can be used against any army that seeks to close in with me and tear me up in assault using one or more hard assault units, such as orks, nids (4th ed, at least, haven't played against new nids yet), CSM, SW, etc.

No, far better to get two tacticals and an assault squad for the price of that 6 wound 1 vehicle unit

I disagree.

 

First off, two tacticals in rhinos cost 410 pts with no upgrades, so no way you can put an assault squad there, too.

 

Second off, it's not about how many models you can take for points. It's about what niche they fill in your army, and how you use them.

 

I understand perfectly where you come from, though. We just adhere to different schools of thought, and that is a good thing. Would be helluva boring if we all agreed on everything. :P