Do Marines "need" LR Deathstars?

[minigun762]

We're playing against CSM. They got let's say two warptime daemon princes, a bunch of troops, and a bunch of obliterators and, say, a defiler. Obliterators are standing in terrain far away, defiler is behind cover. They're shooting at you. The rest of the army advances so they can assault/contest objectives.

 

Without th/ss termies in a LR, I'm forced to shoot the daemon princes and the incoming rhinos, or they'll tear me apart. If I ignore them and go after defiler & obliterators, I'm more or less doomed to have my weaker close-combat dudes get owned by their superior assault forces. This means I'm accepting the fact that I'm going to spend at least 2 or 3 turns getting shot up by a bunch of lascannons/plasmacannons and a battlecannon. I don't like that.

 

Before I say anything I will say that it sounds like you are well versed in using your TH/SS buddies to smash your opponent and more then anything, playstyle > internet advice. So if it works for you, don't change it. ;)

 

Having said that, its odd that you could be worried about the long range firepower of Chaos when its one of their main weaknesses.

 

I would say that 80% of Codex Marine lists can generate far more firepower at range then any Chaos list and really you should be because its one of your major strengths.

Hell 3 Combi-Predators would cost you less then those Oblits/Defilers and would win in a shoot out and thats not pulling firepower away from those Rhinos or Daemon Prince since you'll have plenty of Tac squads, Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts to provide dakka.

1st priority will be to kill the DP, otherwise he's going to open up your Land Raider and expose your Terminators. Once exposed, they die like anything else to rapid firing Marines and CSM will get 2 attacks before you get a swing, so a 5 man squad can be reduced to 2-3 just by using 1 CSM squad.

 

I don't want to turn this into a theory-hammer battle of "I can beat your made up list with my made up list" so I'll end with my opinion that one of the biggest strengths for Codex Marines is access to cheap long range anti-tank firepower. If you move away from that strength, you'd better have a good reason.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I don't really believe Codex Marines have any need for Land Raiders, period. Let alone TH/SS Termies IN a LR.

 

By thwonking that unit down on the table, you're begging for every melta and plasma shot to be thrown into the LR and cargo. With a multitude of cheaper targets, you get armor saturation and applying weapons becomes much harder to do properly, thus leading to more mistakes on your opponent's part. Plus, IG laugh - absolutely LAUGH - at any kind of Terminator or LR.

 

That said, I do consider TH/SS Termies very effective and happy against Daemons and Nids.

[templargdt]

I've had great success with my Crusader/Redeemers and thunderhammer termies. They aren't the perfect weapon system (TH/SS against Orgryns aren't great) but I find TH/SS terminators fill a very useful role in my army, and that is killing stuff in assault that I can't kill shooting wise. I routinely find myself taking out Leman Russes, Plague Marines and Demon Princes with Thunderhammers at a very low cost in return losses. Meanwhile, the Crusader is off killing piles of infantry and machine spiriting the multimelta into another vehicle.

[Giga]

Having said that, its odd that you could be worried about the long range firepower of Chaos when its one of their main weaknesses.

 

I would say that 80% of Codex Marine lists can generate far more firepower at range then any Chaos list and really you should be because its one of your major strengths.

Well, if I was tailoring my list to beat the chaos player, then yes, I would be more then capable of out-shooting them. However, I prefer to play all-comers lists even in casual battles, which means my balanced lists usually are facing stuff like 5-6 obliterators and a defiler, all of them camped up in cover somewhere.

 

Normally, my long-range firepower consists of a combipredator and a LR godhammer. In addition, I usually have a mm/hf speeder squadron + some meltaguns + tactical squad heavies. This gives me plenty of anti-tank/anti-MC/instantdeath shooting. I rarely, if ever, feel I need more, and I certainly feel spending 360 pts on 3 predators is a waste of points considering how weak they are against armies like leman russ-heavy IG, green tides, dual LR marines, etc.

 

However, even so, proper prioritization is in order, as the obliterators usually have cover saves, and so do daemon princes. Whatever I decide to shoot, I have to accept the fact that at least half of my shots are going to miss or be nullified by cover saves. This means I sometimes need as much as two turns to take out all those obliterators. On the other hand, those obliterators can fire 6 str9 ap 2 shots at 48" range per turn. Statistically, that's dangerous enough to threaten a land raider.

 

A daemon prince, on the other hand, has to come to me, and with a little good positioning (keeping the LR with termies in front of my army but also in the middle, like a spearhead) I'm making it impossible for it to avoid my th/ss termies. I also have a higher threat range then he does (20" charge range rather then 18"), so I feel I have a big advantage right there. The CSM player can either go in head-on with his prince and get hammered in a single assault phase, or he can keep back and get shot.

Before I say anything I will say that it sounds like you are well versed in using your TH/SS buddies to smash your opponent and more then anything, playstyle > internet advice. So if it works for you, don't change it.

Yepp. Needless to say, everything I write here is a matter of personal gaming experience and playstyle. When I say that I feel th/ss termies in a LR are essential, what I'm truly saying is that they're essential for me and that since it works that way for me it just as well might work for other people, too. ^_^

 

That being said, both my LR and my th/ss termies have long-since become famous as my, ahem, trademark unit in my LGS. There are at least 3 other dudes who use the same unit regularly, but I'm the only one who gets groaned at when I place them on the table. :)

[minigun762]

Yepp. Needless to say, everything I write here is a matter of personal gaming experience and playstyle. When I say that I feel th/ss termies in a LR are essential, what I'm truly saying is that they're essential for me and that since it works that way for me it just as well might work for other people, too. :P

 

That being said, both my LR and my th/ss termies have long-since become famous as my, ahem, trademark unit in my LGS. There are at least 3 other dudes who use the same unit regularly, but I'm the only one who gets groaned at when I place them on the table. ;)

 

See its reasons like this that it would be fun to play fellow B&Cers, do something more then just talking. I bet it would be a good game.

[Gornall]

/shameless plug for help

 

So this would be an example of "Too Many Eggs in one Basket":

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2214389

 

as compared to this:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2261336

 

Are either of those lists workable?

[spartan249]

The second one looks infinitely better to me. The first one simply uses subpar units to replace what wasn't broken in the first place.

[Giga]

@ Gornall

 

The first list, the calgar one, is eggs-in-basket but good, either way. Just replace honor guard with 5 th/ss terminators, or maybe a mix of LC terminators and th/ss terminators.

 

You'll prolly end up having leftover points, too, and you can spend these on combiflamers for your tacticals so you can improve a little on your anti-infantry. :P

 

The other list is cool, too. The only thing I'd do is replace the libby with a MotF with conversion beamer and bike. Firepower firepower firepower. :(

See its reasons like this that it would be fun to play fellow B&Cers, do something more then just talking. I bet it would be a good game.

Yeh, when it comes to 40k, I wish I lived in england or in america. Would, at the very least, be able to meet fellow B&C-ers on tournaments. :/

[Fintan]

Yeh, when it comes to 40k, I wish I lived in england or in america. Would, at the very least, be able to meet fellow B&C-ers on tournaments. :/

 

If you ever do come over to Ol' Blighty you'll have to make it publicly known so that we can arrange some games!

[Giga]

Yeh, when it comes to 40k, I wish I lived in england or in america. Would, at the very least, be able to meet fellow B&C-ers on tournaments. :/

 

If you ever do come over to Ol' Blighty you'll have to make it publicly known so that we can arrange some games!

Will do! One of my "must do things in life" is going to grand tournaments in USA & England, and if I ever do we'll organize some pub-visiting as well! :)

[Vaktathi]

The LR deathstar is a hallmark of the basic SM book, primarily because of the painfully undercosted TH/SS termi's and the prevalence of Vulkan (who rides with them and makes them and pretty much everything else 5E makes good even better). SW's, BA, DA, BT and CSM's don't see the same ubiquitousness of this build.

 

Furthermore, most people's opponents will be other SM's most of the time. LR Deathstars work great against other SM armies and against other Deathstar units (like Nob Bikers). They fall apart when you face something like Imperial Guard (where they're essentially wasted points as you don't need anything with that level of combat potential and they've got more than enough weapons to force even those 2+/3++ saves to fail) or mech eldar (oh, that 600pt land raider/termi/character thing got into one unit the whole damn game...).

 

They aren't "needed", and often they are a liability against some armies, but they are a sort of default no-brainer option against other SM armies.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

So reading this all...

 

Land Raiders are not Uber units; opponents usually find counters for them and expect them.

 

I have a question. Is taking two land raiders (LRC/LL) in a 2k point game worth the effort? The point sink is there, but fielding only 1 makes it a very inviting target for anti-tank weapons.

 

@Spartan249 I really do like your approach with the army list. It would really off-balance most players. ;)

[mowglie]

Let's take a usual situation; We're playing against CSM...

 

Great explanation! Particularly, I can see quite clearly now why you prefer the LR to the LRC.

 

In contrast, if I'd chosen to play TH/SS in an LR, I'd have been using a LSS to deliver my scouts to their artillery, an LRC to deliver my assault team to their gunline, while using sternguard to shoot their assault team.

 

The weak link in my strategy compared to yours is that obviously the LRC is unsupported and vulnerable, which is why I've tended to not play TH/SS in an LRC. In those situations where the LRC performs well (e.g. against Ork horde), you probably wouldn't have chosen to take the TH/SS in the first place.

 

One advantage of the TH/SS is (as you pointed out) that they give you the option to *let* your target assault your line (in favour of shooting something else), although I think that because of Stubborn Kantor makes it quite likely that your tactical squad will survive two assault phases to be wiped out in the third so you can answer with a phase of shooting rather than a counter-assault unit - not to mention that he makes a tactical squad with a power fist (or a BP/CCW scout squad with a PF out of a LSS for the extra Ld mod) that he charges on the same turn as into an acceptable counter-assault choice against all but the toughest targets - particularly when backed up by the power fist in the squad that got assaulted in the first place. That would be 3 PF attacks from the sergeant of the squad that got assaulted, 4PF attacks from the counter-assaulting tactical or scout sergeant, plus 4PF attacks from Kantor himself.

 

How often do you find that the 15 I1S8 attacks (24 if Kantor is supporting them) from the TH/SS counter-assault is just totally overkill?

 

Replying to the OP: I think it's useful to draw a very clear distinction between a 450-point reactive counter-assault unit and a 700-point proactive assault unit. The former isn't too terrible a points-sink and can protect your troops against rampaging MCs, DPs, walkers - as well as getting offensive vs e.g. Nob Bikers. The latter is a huge points-sink and while it will certainly annihilate anything on the table, it probably won't have a target worthy of its stature.

 

Personally I prefer using a pair of Sternguard units as my "hammers" because I think it's harder to deny them a worthy target.

[Giga]

In contrast, if I'd chosen to play TH/SS in an LR, I'd have been using a LSS to deliver my scouts to their artillery, an LRC to deliver my assault team to their gunline, while using sternguard to shoot their assault team.

Scouts in a LSS are nice as long as the opponent has a weak unit 5 scouts can actually beat in close combat, or if they have some uber very-important vehicle (such as a land raider, or a squadron of leman russes etc.) that you can kill with first turn meltaing+charge.

 

The problem begins when you're playing against, say, new tyranids. What do the 5 scouts assault then? They won't have much chance against MCs, and they sure as hell won't be able to dish it out against a fearless 20 gaunts unit. Same with CSM, what are the scouts going to assault? Their troops? Obliterators in cover? Havocs? None of these options are particularly inviting, which is why I feel that a lot of the time scouts potential would be wasted.

 

Also, from my own experience, sternguard are great... Except they aren't reliable enough to tackle most hammer units. Try to imagine them rapid firing a squad of kitted out nob bikers, or trying to down a swarmlord with 3 guards, or a unit of plague marines. Chances are, unless the opponent is extremely unlucky with his armor saves/FNP rolls, the sternguard aren't going to be able to reliable slaughter these hammer units.

 

In other words, sternguard really need support in order to shine, and the best support they can get is from Pedro Cantor. TH/SS termies in a LR, though they still profit a lot from support, are perhaps the only unit in the vanilla dex that you can send unsupported against a full-wounds nurgle daemon prince with warptime, and be almost-100% sure that they're going to kill it in a single assault phase.

 

Times are changing, of course, and with the addition of terminator wolf guard and swarmlord+guards, not even the th/ss termies are as reliable as they once were. Which is good. It necessitates more tactical thinking. ;)

In those situations where the LRC performs well (e.g. against Ork horde), you probably wouldn't have chosen to take the TH/SS in the first place.

The way I see it, LRC is good, but godhammer is better. Even against ork hordes, this holds true, as those lascannons and heavy bolter really help out when it comes to halting all those annoying trukks and battlewagons, so you can have a field day slaughtering the orks as they footslog over the table.

 

Also, th/ss are invariably useful against orks, because 99% of ork players out there have some sort of a nobz unit. There are few greater pleasures in 40k then watching 5 th/ss termies charge a group of cybork nobs and, backed up by nullzone, proceed to liberally apply banhammer to a ~400 point unit, which then invariably fails their morale test, and gets chased off the table without being able to regroup because you kept that one rhino within 6" of them. :)

although I think that because of Stubborn Kantor makes it quite likely that your tactical squad will survive two assault phases to be wiped out in the third so you can answer with a phase of shooting rather than a counter-assault unit

Eh... I'm the sort of guy who prefers to keep my tacticals as far away from close combat as possible. If and when they do engage in close combat, I do my best to make sure it's on my own terms (forcing the enemy to assault through terrain, having pedro nearby to give them +1 attack, etc.). If my tacticals are getting assaulted, and I haven't planned for it to happen, it usually means I'm losing.

 

(needless to say, I like to use my tacticals for assault when fighting necrons, guard, tau, etc. but that's an exception rather then the rule)

How often do you find that the 15 I1S8 attacks (24 if Kantor is supporting them) from the TH/SS counter-assault is just totally overkill?

There's no kill like overkill. ;)

 

I find 6 th/ss termies to be the perfect amount, but I usually have to make do with 5 (don't have enough transport space in the LR, otherwise). The thing with them is that usually 1-2 die before they get to swing. So in reality, some of them are ablative wounds for those who were actually going to swing, and I rarely if ever get the full 15-20 attacks.

 

Oh and, I avoid having pedro in assault, unless it's the bully assault where he's just picking on those much weaker then he is. ;)

Personally I prefer using a pair of Sternguard units as my "hammers" because I think it's harder to deny them a worthy target.

I like having two different hammer units, and so far I prefer a big sternguard unit (with pedro!) in rhino, and a 5 th/ss in LR with librarian. The other option is big biker unit (with bike captain), and the same th/ss in LR with libby, but that's annoying because bikers die in terrain and can't climb buildings (and get pwned by ordnance).