librarians

[edinburger]

ok i have read all thr HH novels that have been relised and in some of them librarians are in them and in some of them the councelof nikea removes them. I find it hard that a legion such as the Dark angels would have them when they have been banned and when mhotep of the thousand sons is being called a sorceror in a novel in the same timeline

[vmpkitten]

Its pretty all in how they use there powers and so on, the 1000 sons were far more obsessed with learning the secrets of the warp and finding a way to control it than just your average Librarians but i dont really know all the details. Thats just my opinion but yeah it sucks i love the 1000 sons wish there was a loyalist chapter like them wish they had stayed with the imperium.

[Monstra Sumus]

I may be wrong, someone can correct me if I am.

 

But, sorcery and being a pysker are two completely different things.

 

Librarians, who are born psykers can unwilling and willing tap into the immaterial powers of the Warp around them.

 

Sorcers harness Warp power through spells and incantations, rituals and rites. The council of Nikea banned Sorcery, not Pyskers.

Knowledge is power for the Thousand Sons, so naturally, Sorcery would be a big part of their culture, seeking and discovering new ways to control and manipulate the warp without the pre-cursor of being a Psyker.

 

This ultimately led to some really bad juju.

Like the summoning of the daemon in the library and Euprhati Keeler stopping it. That was sorcery because it was a spoken spell which ripped a tear into the fabric of the Material realm and allowed the Immaterial to spill through.

 

Least, thats what I surmise the edict from the Council of Nikea was all about.

[vmpkitten]

yeah there you go ;) i knew it was something like that just didnt quite know how to say it :).

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I may be wrong, someone can correct me if I am.

 

But, sorcery and being a pysker are two completely different things.

 

Librarians, who are born psykers can unwilling and willing tap into the immaterial powers of the Warp around them.

 

Sorcers harness Warp power through spells and incantations, rituals and rites. The council of Nikea banned Sorcery, not Pyskers.

Knowledge is power for the Thousand Sons, so naturally, Sorcery would be a big part of their culture, seeking and discovering new ways to control and manipulate the warp without the pre-cursor of being a Psyker.

 

This ultimately led to some really bad juju.

Like the summoning of the daemon in the library and Euprhati Keeler stopping it. That was sorcery because it was a spoken spell which ripped a tear into the fabric of the Material realm and allowed the Immaterial to spill through.

 

Least, thats what I surmise the edict from the Council of Nikea was all about.

 

First off, off topic: i got all warm and fuzzy when I saw you are from my hometown! :P

 

Back OT: Yes being a Librarian and Socrcery are different, but I believe it has been noted somewhere that all forms of Warp-channelling (for want of a better phrase) were banned..? But then thats only IIRC.

[Dosjetka]

I may be wrong, someone can correct me if I am.

 

But, sorcery and being a pysker are two completely different things.

 

Librarians, who are born psykers can unwilling and willing tap into the immaterial powers of the Warp around them.

 

Sorcers harness Warp power through spells and incantations, rituals and rites. The council of Nikea banned Sorcery, not Pyskers.

Knowledge is power for the Thousand Sons, so naturally, Sorcery would be a big part of their culture, seeking and discovering new ways to control and manipulate the warp without the pre-cursor of being a Psyker.

 

This ultimately led to some really bad juju.

Like the summoning of the daemon in the library and Euprhati Keeler stopping it. That was sorcery because it was a spoken spell which ripped a tear into the fabric of the Material realm and allowed the Immaterial to spill through.

 

Least, thats what I surmise the edict from the Council of Nikea was all about.

 

First off, off topic: i got all warm and fuzzy when I saw you are from my hometown! :P

 

Back OT: Yes being a Librarian and Socrcery are different, but I believe it has been noted somewhere that all forms of Warp-channelling (for want of a better phrase) were banned..? But then thats only IIRC.

I second that. IIRC I read the same thing somewhere...can't remember where though...:cuss memory

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I may be wrong, someone can correct me if I am.

 

But, sorcery and being a pysker are two completely different things.

 

Librarians, who are born psykers can unwilling and willing tap into the immaterial powers of the Warp around them.

 

Sorcers harness Warp power through spells and incantations, rituals and rites. The council of Nikea banned Sorcery, not Pyskers.

Knowledge is power for the Thousand Sons, so naturally, Sorcery would be a big part of their culture, seeking and discovering new ways to control and manipulate the warp without the pre-cursor of being a Psyker.

 

This ultimately led to some really bad juju.

Like the summoning of the daemon in the library and Euprhati Keeler stopping it. That was sorcery because it was a spoken spell which ripped a tear into the fabric of the Material realm and allowed the Immaterial to spill through.

 

Least, thats what I surmise the edict from the Council of Nikea was all about.

 

Because I believe all Librarians were supposed to cease in the use of their powers and return to the rank and file?

 

First off, off topic: i got all warm and fuzzy when I saw you are from my hometown! :P

 

Back OT: Yes being a Librarian and Socrcery are different, but I believe it has been noted somewhere that all forms of Warp-channelling (for want of a better phrase) were banned..? But then thats only IIRC.

I second that. IIRC I read the same thing somewhere...can't remember where though...:cuss memory

[Monstra Sumus]

Off topic: Juan, where'd you come from then? I'm a farley farmer born and raised! :cuss

Although I live in Houghton now.

 

 

On Topic: Ahhh, I always figured through the CV and HH novels that Librarians didn't come under the edict of Nikea unless they were under strict supervision, what with the Emperor being a psyker and all.

 

Guess I figured my reasoning on it was a lot more likely to encounter a daemon or chaos through sorcery than it was through simply having psyker powers because from what I gather most sorcery is based on daemon worship and summoning.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Off topic: Juan, where'd you come from then? I'm a farley farmer born and raised! :cuss

Although I live in Houghton now.

 

 

On Topic: Ahhh, I always figured through the CV and HH novels that Librarians didn't come under the edict of Nikea unless they were under strict supervision, what with the Emperor being a psyker and all.

 

Guess I figured my reasoning on it was a lot more likely to encounter a daemon or chaos through sorcery than it was through simply having psyker powers because from what I gather most sorcery is based on daemon worship and summoning.

 

I was born in Luton, in Persil Road where i lived for the first few years of my tender life... although i live in Kent now and have done for over a decade!

 

Topic: To be honest, i think that the Thousand Sons were Librarians, but used what we call sorcery as an aid to bosst their powers.. Their innate ability was great, but the use of chant and ritual focused that power to greater levels.

[Monstra Sumus]

Off topic: My family come from Ramsgate, go down every year to stay with the family.

 

On topic: Makes sense. At that time, I wouldn't want my little psyker children being able to summon daemons and shiz.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Off topic: My family come from Ramsgate, go down every year to stay with the family.

 

On topic: Makes sense. At that time, I wouldn't want my little psyker children being able to summon daemons and shiz.

 

I'm just going to stay on topic now :P

 

But then remember that the HH novels are supposed to be canon for the Heresy.. So that throws into doubt the Council.

[Monstra Sumus]

Thats true, you'd think atleast once they'd have gone into more detail about the edicts of the Council other than the one or two mentions of wrist slapping.

 

Then again I guess thats what Thousand Son is about. Well, some of it anyhows :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Council of Nikaea

 

What Lexicanum says, but its not the most reputable source!

[Monstra Sumus]

Never put my faith in Wiki's but it does seem to back up what this thread has concluded, so, awesome I guess.

 

More nuggets of information to stick in my brain.

[Pacific81]

I think what Brother Tyrax says is pretty much dead on the money.

 

Existing background has the council of Nikeae as forbidding the use of all forms of psychic powers, and those with these powers being absorbed back into the fighting strength of their respective legions (source: Collected Visions).

 

However, if the rumours are true, A Thousand Sons stands to retcon this to the Council simply banning the use of Sorcery - this would bring events back into line with some of the other HH books, where we have seen at least two legions (The Thousand Sons and Dark Angels) who still have Librarians in use.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Existing background has the council of Nikeae as forbidding the use of all forms of psychic powers, and those with these powers being absorbed back into the fighting strength of their respective legions (source: Collected Visions).

 

There is a discrepancy in the older fluff though - Index Astartes: Siege of the Emperor's Palace has thousands of BA and IF Librarians on board the Sky Fortress thwarting the Thousand Sons contingent in their attempts to breach the Inner Palace with sorcery. I can't really see where they all came from if the Council of Nikea banned all psychic powers.

[Pacific81]

Indeed! There seem to be a lot of discrepancies as far as the Council of Nikeae is concerned, probably as much as anything else in the background you care to mention.

 

The funny thing is Alan Merrett co-wrote Collected Visions which mentions the complete ban on any and all uses of psychic power by the Astartes, yet a couple of the HH books have mentioned some of the Legions employ Librarians. This is especially odd if you consider that all of the HH books are going through Merrett during their creation.

 

So, I'm guessing that he has either had second thoughts on the 'complete ban' retcon in Collected Visions (perhaps because of the amount of existing fluff?) or else he doesn't have a close enough control of the books - the psychic powers of the characters in the two Dark Angel books slipped under the radar, and now future books are having to accommodate it to present a coherent story on the issue?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I think the Emp banned the use of sorcery and disbanded the Librarians, also forbidding even the Primarchs from using their undoubted psychic talents. The Librarian were to be be folded back into the general body of the Legion. They used some kind of mental conditioning to block the former Librarians use of their powers. Some Legions ignored this order like the 1K sons and Dark Angels. Some followed it to the letter like the Raven Guard and World Eaters. Some i think followed it to a varying degree. I think the Luna wolves still had some left over Librarian traditions in the form of the Mournival. If you look at the mission statement of the Mournival and then compare it to that of the Librarians it is very close IMO. To close for just happenstance. What happened at the Council of Nikeae is one of the most important and mysterious events in the history of the Empire and i cant wait to read some first hand accounts of the whole deal. I Really hope that the young Librarian who makes the passionate argument to allow them to continue their work is already know to us from the previous books. it would be nice to find out some one who we have been following for some time was a repressed psyker. I got my money on Garv.

[Imriel]

Never put my faith in Wiki's but it does seem to back up what this thread has concluded, so, awesome I guess.

 

More nuggets of information to stick in my brain.

 

If it helps it's taken almost verbatim from Index Astartes: Thousand Sons, which can be found, as the Wiki says, In index Astartes III

[KP13]

Actually, the confusion exists because Alan Merrett kinda screwed things up with the newer fluff.

 

The older fluff had the council ban the use of sorcery, and (I think!) put a closer watch on Librarians and their psychic use.

 

The newer fluff bans everything connected with psykers, kind of, while at the same time making things unclear, muddy and generally not flow very well.

 

Sort of like most of the 'newer fluff' does...

[Lord_Caerolion]

The whole "psykers are banned altogether" thing never made any sense whatsoever. After all, according to the Emperor, one of the most dangerous things for the Imperium is an untrained psyker, so for some reason he's going to fill his most elite fighting force with what are practically ticking time bombs.

[SamaNagol]

In A Thousand Sons it quotes the emperor as commanding all legions to disband their Libraria and completely cease the use of any psychic powers.

 

So it is made pretty clear. I am most intrigued as to how the Libraria were re-established then.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Actually, the confusion exists because Alan Merrett kinda screwed things up with the newer fluff.

 

The older fluff had the council ban the use of sorcery, and (I think!) put a closer watch on Librarians and their psychic use.

 

The newer fluff bans everything connected with psykers, kind of, while at the same time making things unclear, muddy and generally not flow very well.

 

Sort of like most of the 'newer fluff' does...

I am beginning to think that the newer fluff not matching the older fluff and the confusion that comes form the difference as intended. There has been a theme in 40k from the beginning of differing points of view and the possibility of both being correct. Also the resulting interest it has created has to be a good thing for GW. It creates arguments that more then one faction can say "see i told you so". I also tend to view most of the fluff in 40k from the perspective of some Adept scribe working on Terra who is reading/ viewing, classified reports on the Various Battles and events of the past. Like a detective interviewing multiple witness on a event and getting a different account by each. It is left to us the readers / jury, to make our own conclusion based on a preponderance of a lot of circumstantial evidence and eye witness accounts.

 

The whole "psykers are banned altogether" thing never made any sense whatsoever. After all, according to the Emperor, one of the most dangerous things for the Imperium is an untrained psyker, so for some reason he's going to fill his most elite fighting force with what are practically ticking time bombs.

Some things the Emperor dose wont ever make sense. He was able to see the future and makes many actions based on some foreseen issue. They might not seem like the smart things to do at the time but only he could see the reason. Maybe he knew the Heresy was coming and saw that if he did not ban the use of psycic powers in the Legions then the Traitors would have access to a power that could tip the balance in their favor.

 

 

In A Thousand Sons it quotes the emperor as commanding all legions to disband their Libraria and completely cease the use of any psychic powers.

 

So it is made pretty clear. I am most intrigued as to how the Libraria were re-established then.

As am I. Maybe when the Grey Knights were created they found a better training method that could help the Astartes keep control of their Psykers.

[KP13]

Actually, the confusion exists because Alan Merrett kinda screwed things up with the newer fluff.

 

The older fluff had the council ban the use of sorcery, and (I think!) put a closer watch on Librarians and their psychic use.

 

The newer fluff bans everything connected with psykers, kind of, while at the same time making things unclear, muddy and generally not flow very well.

 

Sort of like most of the 'newer fluff' does...

I am beginning to think that the newer fluff not matching the older fluff and the confusion that comes form the difference as intended. There has been a theme in 40k from the beginning of differing points of view and the possibility of both being correct. Also the resulting interest it has created has to be a good thing for GW. It creates arguments that more then one faction can say "see i told you so". I also tend to view most of the fluff in 40k from the perspective of some Adept scribe working on Terra who is reading/ viewing, classified reports on the Various Battles and events of the past. Like a detective interviewing multiple witness on a event and getting a different account by each. It is left to us the readers / jury, to make our own conclusion based on a preponderance of a lot of circumstantial evidence and eye witness accounts.

 

Huh.

 

Maybe.

 

I'm willing to see how they pull themselves out of this one.

 

But until they do, the whole "newer fluff not matching the older fluff and the confusion that comes form the difference as intended" thing smells more like poor planning and worse editing.

 

There seems to be a shift in the purpose/outcome of the Council of Nikaea in the old background vs. the new background.

 

The old background basically had it as (from the old Index Astartes article on the Thousand Sons):

 

"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.

 

The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.

 

But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.

 

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

 

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."

 

I think the new background now has it that the Council of Nikaea banned entirely the use of Librarians/Psykers.

 

This probably "had" to happen as in the new fluff, it appears that, at least at the start, no one outside of the Emperor and a handful of others knew anything at all about the "Chaos Gods" or most other malevolent warp entities.

 

The 'new' solution seems ill thought out, as it leaves a lot of contradictions given what we know 'today'...