Sisters of Battle Falling to Chaos?

[boreas]

I'm always flabbergasted by players who seek "forum approval" for how they paint/fluff the miniatures they workes hard to buy.

 

You want a pink slaneeshi Tyranids army led by a cunning Tzeentch-devoted Tau Ethereal? I don't care as long as you follow the rules for you army (ie use you codex's rules for the whole army and not try to mish-mash something).

 

Do YOU like Chaos Sisiters? Good for you. Go ahead, paint them awesomely and have fun playing.

 

Fluff and game should inspire one another to some extent, but they should be kept separated when dice start rolling.

 

Phil

[Grand Master Caloth]

As there is precedent i dont see as there's any major issue. The only thing I ever really had any issue with (and i hope im not being unjustified) is when i come across a "Fallen Grey Knight" unit or army, cause there just isnt ANY way that could really work, IMO

[Captain Hajime]

I'm always flabbergasted by players who seek "forum approval" for how they paint/fluff the miniatures they workes hard to buy.

 

You want a pink slaneeshi Tyranids army led by a cunning Tzeentch-devoted Tau Ethereal? I don't care as long as you follow the rules for you army (ie use you codex's rules for the whole army and not try to mish-mash something).

 

Do YOU like Chaos Sisiters? Good for you. Go ahead, paint them awesomely and have fun playing.

 

Fluff and game should inspire one another to some extent, but they should be kept separated when dice start rolling.

 

Phil

 

I think many ask because they don't want to be blindside by people's reaction for their army. I think most people [myself included] will do what they want in the end.

[boreas]

I'm pretty sure a well painted army:

 

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/6955/5sisters16pe.jpg

 

Will never get you blindsided! And if another player gives you a hard time because of your "fluff" just don't care. He'll probably will give you a hard time about a thousand things while gaming anyways.

 

Phil

[The_Crippster]

Oh, and their brains cannot comprehend Chaos.

But can the chaos gods comprehend them?

 

 

Also, for those who've played L4D2, sisters fallen to nurgle makes me think of a female boomer army =/

[Captain Hajime]

I'm pretty sure a well painted army:

 

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/6955/5sisters16pe.jpg

 

Will never get you blindsided! And if another player gives you a hard time because of your "fluff" just don't care. He'll probably will give you a hard time about a thousand things while gaming anyways.

 

Phil

 

Not all of paint to a standard that can distract people almost as well fine example of the approprate gender.

[boreas]

Not all of paint to a standard that can distract people almost as well fine example of the approprate gender.

 

Quite true. Although with practice, one should be able to impress if only by the amount of work. Also, if you have a painted army and someone still give you a hard time, he's a jerk, leave him be. There are so many half-assembled, primed only armies out there that anyone who made an effort to try and do something good should not be laughed at, no matter what theme he chose.

 

Are there so many unfriendly players out there?

 

Just so that I'm not completely off-topic: I'd say there could be an entire order of Sister that fell to chaos or at the very least an entire commandery . As previously stated, if entire Space Marines legions and Primarchs could fall, it would be pretentious to think that a few hundred sisters under the command of an exceptionally arrogant Canoness cannot fall.

 

WH40k is an immense universe with untold billions. Each Order has a few thousand sisters (Preceptories) and there are at least 6 major Orders. If a player wants his sisters to have fallen, he's not re-writing major Canon stuff and turning the whole universe on it's head. He made a minor (if, IMHO unoriginal) quirk.

 

Also, if that's to indulge an "excuse to make an entire army full of fetish fuel and nudity", well I'll have to say: First if that is the player's taste, it's his entire right as long as he keeps the whole thing away from children and Second look at page 13 of the Codex: WH and ask yourself if GW hasn't opened the door to such things.

 

Phil

[Walter Payton]

Actually one Sister has fallen in Cannon, that not debatable. Further you are really taking this to seriously short of My irrational hate for Ultramarines, I think most people know I approch all arguements with a sense of humour. Telling me to grow up is missing the point.

 

Actually, it is debatable. See Daemonifuge and Ciaphas Cain. That creates a possible canon justification for fallen Sisters. Admittedly not a fantastic one, but it still makes a grey area. People are perfectly within their rights to exploit grey areas and keep their armies fluffy. I also would like to point out that the piece of fluff saying that there is only one is from 1997, didn't make the current Codex, and after all, came from a time when GW had a lot of things in their fluff that they have retconned to pieces.

 

Yes, it is better to have a style that fits into the fluff. I do. For instance, my own 'Fallen Sisters' are in fact a cruel Chaos mimicry, using captured armour, and female cultisits, led by Miriael Sabathiel. I have seen plenty of 'Fallen Grey Knights' that are in fact just, again, Tzeentch copying a winning formula, utilisng captured armour, or armour that they have made. But, there are grey areas, there is one here, and people should not come under fire for using it.

 

My comment to grow up was directed at the derogatory nature of some of the comments, not the ideas behind them. I apologise if I have inadverntantly caused you offence.

 

*a very verbose post, making excellent use of sarcastic smilies, I applaud you :)

 

 

Right.

 

One: You always seem to deploy, as rebuttal, a ridiculous argument (the CSM wrapped around the Emperor's little finger stuff), and then say that it is a natural progression of the poster's idea. Any debater will tell you that, whilst this may gain a few laughs, it doesn't really cut the mustard. The idea that my Chaos Marines are Fallen Ultramarines is eminently possible. The idea that they are fallen Sisters is believable. The idea that they are fallen Custodes is unlikely, but not impossible. The idea that they are fallen Grey Knights is stretching the bounds of credulity. The idea that they are Imperial Squats standing on each other's shoulders, led by Dubya reincarnated as a daemon prince of the Emperor is palpably ridiculous. You are not taking my idea and applying it 'a little more universally'. You are taking my idea and fitting over your own riposte.

 

 

There is a fluff justification for Fallen Sisiters, as I have said above. There is no fluff justification for the events you described in your amusing edit of my post.

 

That covers the first and last paragraphs of your post.

 

 

Two: I am not calling people fluff-Nazis, and believe me, I don't deploy that very often, it is just that there has been a lot of Chaos SOB threads recently, which attracts them, because they tell people not to destroy the established universe and claim it is canon. I am calling people fluff-Nazis because they tell people that they are destroying the established universe and claiming it as canon, when they are not.

 

In the end, saying that your CSMs that look very like GKs are in fact Tzeentch mockeries is not even slightly non-canonical. Sometimes, you seem to think that it is.

 

I also find it somewhat amusing that you thunder against me for calling people 'fluff-Nazis' and then deplore me as a 'fluff-Anarchist'. Hmmmm.

 

Three: 'When you start messing with things that are not ambiguous, then everything is game.' Yes, that is why I dislike people who do that, but, for the reasons stated above, this is ambiguous (in my view).

 

Four: 'Stop dumping on people who want to do their own thing' *Jumps up and down stamping his feet* Fluff-Anarchist, Fluff-Anarchist :lol:

 

You see the flaw in the argument?

 

To summarize, the debate here is not about the bendin of the fluff, because, deep down, I think you and I agree on that. What it is, is whether or not there is an ambiguity. I say 'aye', you say 'nay'. At the end of the day, you and I will have to agree to disagree, Grand Master Tyrak.

 

*Dove swoops onto your Terminator armour with an olive branch in its beak. The words, 'I really don't have the energy for much more of this. Brother-Captain Alecto,' are inscribed on the bark.*

[Spacefrisian]

Instead of an order turning to chaos "Fallen Sisters" their could be a chaos sisterhood trained from start by a random Chaos dude. Seem possible with those Wordbearers around, i guess they would be true Chaos Sisters.

[boreas]

Instead of an order turning to chaos "Fallen Sisters" their could be a chaos sisterhood trained from start by a random Chaos dude. Seem possible with those Wordbearers around, i guess they would be true Chaos Sisters.

 

Now, that's very cool! "Word Bearer" Sisters would make lots of sense, if you look at how the Word Bearers tend to "endoctrinate". Also, more original than "Slaanesh Sisters" if you ask (though, everyone still free to do whatever they want!)...

 

Add a few priest and you get yourself a fluffy army. Make "Act of Faith" into "minor psychic powers" if you will...

 

Phil

[Artein]

Actually one Sister has fallen in Cannon, that not debatable. Further you are really taking this to seriously short of My irrational hate for Ultramarines, I think most people know I approch all arguements with a sense of humour. Telling me to grow up is missing the point.

 

Actually, it is debatable. See Daemonifuge and Ciaphas Cain.

BL novels and comics are not a canon.

 

I'm pretty sure a well painted army:

 

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/6955/5sisters16pe.jpg

 

Will never get you blindsided! And if another player gives you a hard time because of your "fluff" just don't care. He'll probably will give you a hard time about a thousand things while gaming anyways.

 

Phil

Why do they have symbols of the Ecclesiarchy?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Instead of an order turning to chaos "Fallen Sisters" their could be a chaos sisterhood trained from start by a random Chaos dude. Seem possible with those Wordbearers around, i guess they would be true Chaos Sisters.

 

Bingo. The grey area is still the grey area, and you still have your Chaos Sisters without trying to take away the grey area.

 

One: You always seem to deploy, as rebuttal, a ridiculous argument (the CSM wrapped around the Emperor's little finger stuff), and then say that it is a natural progression of the poster's idea.

 

And there is the ultimate truth of it. You think my idea about Chaos being wrapped round the Emperor's finger is ridiculous. I think your ideas on Chaos Grey Knights and (to a lesser extent) Fallen Sisters are just as ridiculous.

 

Who is to judge what is ridiculous and what is not? Only our own opinions. Who has the right to apply their opinions and change everyone's shared 40k universe? No-one. If something is ambiguous, then any attempt to justify it one way or another should be equally ambiguous. Otherwise, as I said before, anything is game. Trying to change something unambiguous, or trying to define something that is ambiguous, is a bit like taking someone's DIY Chapter and changing it/adding to it to suit your own purposes. What right does anyone have to do that? The same deal applies here, except the material belongs to GW. To quote Eddie Orlock on claiming a Primarch for the Red Hunters,

 

Yeah and verily look at me, I alone am the unique and special fool who can latch onto specific parts of the universe and claim them as my own. It's in the same vein as those who start by trying to claim they're marines are inheritors of the expunged ones.

 

It might be closer to the tomfoolery that would be claiming that your chief astropath on your lead battle barge is the one and only brother of Marneous Calgar. It is a far to specific hook into the established canon. Most anything that involves being the one specific example of itself, or relatedly, a specific canon character suffers from this fatal flaw.

 

Being an Ultramarine successor is lovely. Being a later founding experimental successor of Leman Russ could be plausible. Being the one and only secret second founding female surviving secret loyal splinter of the Luna Wolves is deplorably specific.

 

The only ones who can resolve the debate are GW. Until then, the 40k universe must be respected for what it is, and things that are left in the dark should remain left in the dark.

 

I also find it somewhat amusing that you thunder against me for calling people 'fluff-Nazis' and then deplore me as a 'fluff-Anarchist'. Hmmmm.

 

I hoped you'd spot that. It was more than just your written word that I applied a little more universally. :)

[boreas]

Why do they have symbols of the Ecclesiarchy?

 

Irony?

 

:)

 

Phil

[Walter Payton]

Essentially, Tyrak, we disagree about using grey areas. I don't see anything wrong with it, you evidently do. My ideas about Fallen Grey Knights are not ridiculous. I fail to see what is ridiculous about Chaos looting/copying armour and weapons. Do the Black Legion not have Techmarines?

 

 

'Who is to judge what is ridiculous and what is not? Only our own opinions. Who has the right to apply their opinions and change everyone's shared 40k universe? No-one. If something is ambiguous, then any attempt to justify it one way or another should be equally ambiguous. Otherwise, as I said before, anything is game. Trying to change something unambiguous, or trying to define something that is ambiguous, is a bit like taking someone's DIY Chapter and changing it/adding to it to suit your own purposes. What right does anyone have to do that? The same deal applies here, except the material belongs to GW. To quote Eddie Orlock on claiming a Primarch for the Red Hunters,'

GMT

 

Precisely. However, in arguing against Fallen Sisters of Battle, you are also defining something ambiguous unambiguously. Unless you feel the ambiguity you are defining to be unambiguous, in which case you view the OP to be defining an unambiguity unambiguously in a direction which forces it to be an ambiguity. Comprende?

 

No-one, save GW, have the right to define something ambiguous, but then again, no-one has the right to tell them not to. In this case, they are well within their rights to use the force, and you are well-within your rights to completely ignore their fluff justification.

 

You always use that Eddie Orlock quotation. I think it is just because you like it. Its use here is wrong for the following reasons: Fallen Sister are not deplorably specific, in that people can find a fluff justification for it (although, as I have said, it is not a very good one). There is no-fluff justification, canonical or otherwise, for a all female last survivng loyalist Luna Wolves splinter.

 

NEW IDEA ALERT:

 

In fact, :) this with a Nemesis force weapon and Fulgrim's tail. I am e-mailing GW to ask them to clean this mess up.

[Spacefrisian]

But what if GW messes things up even more?

[Artein]

Why do they have symbols of the Ecclesiarchy?

 

Irony?

 

:P

 

Phil

I guess their as bada$$ as Alpha Legion with their "For the Emperor!".... :rolleyes:

[Magnus Thane]

As soon as I read 'Chaos Grey Knights' I stopped taking the thread serious. ROFLMAO!

[The Nephilim]

As soon as I read 'Chaos Grey Knights' I stopped taking the thread serious. ROFLMAO!

The comment was made as a point. If that's all you got out of the thread, you've missed quite a bit.

[ArmouredWing]

I'm always flabbergasted by players who seek "forum approval" for how they paint/fluff the miniatures they workes hard to buy.

 

You want a pink slaneeshi Tyranids army led by a cunning Tzeentch-devoted Tau Ethereal? I don't care as long as you follow the rules for you army (ie use you codex's rules for the whole army and not try to mish-mash something).

 

Do YOU like Chaos Sisiters? Good for you. Go ahead, paint them awesomely and have fun playing.

 

Fluff and game should inspire one another to some extent, but they should be kept separated when dice start rolling.

 

Phil

Right with you there Phil, counts as is good enough for a competative environment (How about a Squat force using Ork rules? or a fallen sisters list using CSM rules? If you've got a problem with either of those then go speak to the UK GT refs because both were in this years heats!) so it should be good enough for anyone who wants to take a concept and twist it for their own enjoyment.

 

40K is a concept dreamt up by people who make a living (in Jes Goodwins own words) from making things up. With that being the case who's to say what is right and what's wrong? All of us and none of us?

 

The problem is that there's a lot of folks out there who have turned a game into a religion as apposed to a game involving religion. The question I would ask is whether this core right wing of 'fluffies' is limited to Imperial/traitor forces or whether it encompasses the Xenos players out there as well? I mean, I can't imgaine an Ork player losing his rag with someone because of the way that a gretchin has been painted.

 

From a personal perspective I regularly play 2v2 way games alongside chaos and xenos (nids/tau) lists because it gives me a chance to play a game with people other than Imperial players. I like to game and although I sometimes like to play scenario games which invlove the fluff it doesn't stop me from setting up and rolling dice alongside forces that would be seen dead fighting as allies.

 

So, my advice? Argue less, play more. Remove the barriers and enjoy the game.

[Eddie Orlock]

Good grief, my name's being thrown around like I'm an authority. Well, as the superstitions go, speak his name and he shall arrive. At least this last once before I go off to the hinterlands for a while.

You always use that Eddie Orlock quotation. I think it is just because you like it. Its use here is wrong for the following reasons: Fallen Sister are not deplorably specific, in that people can find a fluff justification for it (although, as I have said, it is not a very good one). There is no-fluff justification, canonical or otherwise, for a all female last survivng loyalist Luna Wolves splinter.

Well, I'm please to see that my sterling example of a bad idea is being accepted as just that. While it didn't come out well in the 'Red Hunter Thread' the sarcasm laced posts danced around the doctrine I was truly after. Ultimately the response and approach need to be tailored to the audience for greatest effect.

 

To a greater or lesser extent, Warhammer Army Theme selection is similar to a definition of modern art or the development of new scientific theories.

 

When asked to define 'Art' most responses may be categorised into two classes. Those that claim something is art because their society claims it's art, and those that will tell you something is art because a specific person has stated as much, often themselves or the artist. If the people in question are sufficiently vigorous in their efforts often the latter will transmute into the former and be recognised by their peers. That last bit is the key, it is the peers that form the community that define how acceptable it is. The trick then is how you define the peers, but I'll come back to that.

 

The scientific community is similar, but ideally not the same. The key difference being experiments. The process might be simplified as follows. The good scientist gets an idea and preforms an experiment. Assuming all went well the results and the interpretations get published for review by his peers, being those who both understand and care. Those peers then attempt to reproduce the results independently and corroborate that they theory predicted their results. If it does, great, it's on its way to acceptance by the greater community and being published in school books. If it can't be reproduced, it gets call out as quackery. This is,of course, a gross, grade school simplification of the process, but it'll suffice for our purposes.

 

It might best be related to theological debate, but this sentence is as close to that as I want to go on this board.

 

In our beloved forty-first millennium we're blessed with a substantial body of work defining the universe. Additions and fan creations are for lack of better terms 'tested' against this in the minds of their audience. There is a notional similarity with the scientific process in so far as ideas get tested by peers, with the important difference that what returns is an aggregate of opinions. Ultimately, what all these processes have in common is the evaluation of the idea by a jury of peers. For the artist, this tends to be the segment of the art community that controls exhibitions, public media, and venues but also includes just about anyone who might subscribe to it. To the scientist, there are his fellow qualified academics, with special attention paid to those on the peer review boards of respected publications. For the wargamer, there is anyone who shares his hobby and sees his works, inclusive of, but not limited too, his local group, and those who see any pictures he posts online.

 

We, ladies and gentlemen, we are that last peer group and we as a group define if we find something acceptable to us. Not by consensus mind you, but by the aggregate of our individual opinions. Of course, without the empirical evidence that is the hallmark of science, what this aggregate is comprised of is a spectrum of opinions that in a sufficiently large group will almost invariably run the gamut from hostile to affectionate. With a curve that is often reminiscent of a skewed bell in between. Depending on the presented content the curve will skew differently but will likely be representative of the responses a project will encounter over its lifetime. Ultimately it comes down to the fabricators themselves as to whether their ideas are sufficiently commonly accepted that the weight of peer opinion will support them and insulate them from negative attentions.

 

In this doctrine, the very fact that we're having this argument suggests that chaotic sisters will never get mass peer approval as an army concept and it will forever haunt its creator. Some fools thrive on that brand of attention and seek controversy at every turn, most however, would rather not have to fight public opinion and derision every time they deploy.

 

In the Red Hunter Thread I gave a sampling of how I'd poll on a trio of hopefully representative ideas, but I guess they're powerful, polarising concepts.

 

It is my sincere regret that I'll be unable to supervise this thread and the responses to this epistle, for I'm sure it could do with clarification and will be subject to mangling in my absence.

[GodwynDi]

A couple of things.

 

Sisters are more devoted than Space Marines. As a matter of uncontested fact, most SM chapters are actually heretics. (Uncontested, not without exception). This applies only to The Emperor as "The God Emperor of Mankind," not to devotion to The Emperor in general.

 

Devotion to The Emperor does not preclude other Chaos Gods (Yes he is.) from guiding and laughing at the antics that SoB, and the Imperium in general, get up to. Any time the Sisters purge heretics, Khorne wins in some way, and Tzeentch almost certainly got something out of it as well. If a Sister's faith fails, there are methods in their structure to deal with that. Guided over time into what the Ecclesiarchy later determines is heresy is different from wholesale Chaos worship. The Ecclesiarchy is notably fickle.

 

As to the Noise Sisters (?) shown, despite my stated preference, I would have no problem playing an army as well done as that. It would be a perfect opportunity to show them where their loyalty should be ;). And they look awesome.

 

A secret sect created by the Wordbearers that bears similarity to the SoB is perfectly reasonable and justifiable, as is any Chaos Cult in general. But it is not the same consideration as the question of the post. A Chaos cult formed in particular manner, even trained to masquerade as SoB, are not fallen sisters.

 

The rogue regiment or such led by one or a few fallen sisters, is an awesome idea.

 

What I do have a problem with is people taking grey areas of fluff, interpreting them how they want, and then holding that it must hold true for the universe as a whole.

[Walter Payton]

Good grief, my name's being thrown around like I'm an authority. Well, as the superstitions go, speak his name and he shall arrive. At least this last once before I go off to the hinterlands for a while.

You always use that Eddie Orlock quotation. I think it is just because you like it. Its use here is wrong for the following reasons: Fallen Sister are not deplorably specific, in that people can find a fluff justification for it (although, as I have said, it is not a very good one). There is no-fluff justification, canonical or otherwise, for a all female last survivng loyalist Luna Wolves splinter.

Well, I'm please to see that my sterling example of a bad idea is being accepted as just that. While it didn't come out well in the 'Red Hunter Thread' the sarcasm laced posts danced around the doctrine I was truly after. Ultimately the response and approach need to be tailored to the audience for greatest effect.

 

To a greater or lesser extent, Warhammer Army Theme selection is similar to a definition of modern art or the development of new scientific theories.

 

When asked to define 'Art' most responses may be categorised into two classes. Those that claim something is art because their society claims it's art, and those that will tell you something is art because a specific person has stated as much, often themselves or the artist. If the people in question are sufficiently vigorous in their efforts often the latter will transmute into the former and be recognised by their peers. That last bit is the key, it is the peers that form the community that define how acceptable it is. The trick then is how you define the peers, but I'll come back to that.

 

The scientific community is similar, but ideally not the same. The key difference being experiments. The process might be simplified as follows. The good scientist gets an idea and preforms an experiment. Assuming all went well the results and the interpretations get published for review by his peers, being those who both understand and care. Those peers then attempt to reproduce the results independently and corroborate that they theory predicted their results. If it does, great, it's on its way to acceptance by the greater community and being published in school books. If it can't be reproduced, it gets call out as quackery. This is,of course, a gross, grade school simplification of the process, but it'll suffice for our purposes.

 

It might best be related to theological debate, but this sentence is as close to that as I want to go on this board.

 

In our beloved forty-first millennium we're blessed with a substantial body of work defining the universe. Additions and fan creations are for lack of better terms 'tested' against this in the minds of their audience. There is a notional similarity with the scientific process in so far as ideas get tested by peers, with the important difference that what returns is an aggregate of opinions. Ultimately, what all these processes have in common is the evaluation of the idea by a jury of peers. For the artist, this tends to be the segment of the art community that controls exhibitions, public media, and venues but also includes just about anyone who might subscribe to it. To the scientist, there are his fellow qualified academics, with special attention paid to those on the peer review boards of respected publications. For the wargamer, there is anyone who shares his hobby and sees his works, inclusive of, but not limited too, his local group, and those who see any pictures he posts online.

 

We, ladies and gentlemen, we are that last peer group and we as a group define if we find something acceptable to us. Not by consensus mind you, but by the aggregate of our individual opinions. Of course, without the empirical evidence that is the hallmark of science, what this aggregate is comprised of is a spectrum of opinions that in a sufficiently large group will almost invariably run the gamut from hostile to affectionate. With a curve that is often reminiscent of a skewed bell in between. Depending on the presented content the curve will skew differently but will likely be representative of the responses a project will encounter over its lifetime. Ultimately it comes down to the fabricators themselves as to whether their ideas are sufficiently commonly accepted that the weight of peer opinion will support them and insulate them from negative attentions.

 

In this doctrine, the very fact that we're having this argument suggests that chaotic sisters will never get mass peer approval as an army concept and it will forever haunt its creator. Some fools thrive on that brand of attention and seek controversy at every turn, most however, would rather not have to fight public opinion and derision every time they deploy.

 

In the Red Hunter Thread I gave a sampling of how I'd poll on a trio of hopefully representative ideas, but I guess they're powerful, polarising concepts.

 

It is my sincere regret that I'll be unable to supervise this thread and the responses to this epistle, for I'm sure it could do with clarification and will be subject to mangling in my absence.

 

 

Grand Master Tyrak, I hereby claim the sentiments within the above to deploy as a quotation from Eddie Orlock whenever I see something I do not like before you can.

 

Double-Dibs

[The Nephilim]

Sisters are more devoted than Space Marines. As a matter of uncontested fact, most SM chapters are actually heretics. (Uncontested, not without exception). This applies only to The Emperor as "The God Emperor of Mankind," not to devotion to The Emperor in general.

How do you figure? The Emperor spoke against pantheons and religions frivolity. The Space Marines remember this. The High Lords of Terra allowed the Ecclesiarchy to form and remain (and in my opinion, as a form of control). The Emperor attempted to put a stop to the Imperial Cult before he got himself stabbed.

 

The Emperor isn't a god. He is a bad ass, don't get me wrong, but a god he is not. So all that aside, the Space Marines are heretics for following what they were taught?

[GodwynDi]

Sisters are more devoted than Space Marines. As a matter of uncontested fact, most SM chapters are actually heretics. (Uncontested, not without exception). This applies only to The Emperor as "The God Emperor of Mankind," not to devotion to The Emperor in general.

How do you figure? The Emperor spoke against pantheons and religions frivolity. The Space Marines remember this. The High Lords of Terra allowed the Ecclesiarchy to form and remain (and in my opinion, as a form of control). The Emperor attempted to put a stop to the Imperial Cult before he got himself stabbed.

 

The Emperor isn't a god. He is a bad ass, don't get me wrong, but a god he is not. So all that aside, the Space Marines are heretics for following what they were taught?

 

That is exactly the point. That is exactly what SM follow, and I do not deny that it is more in vein of what The Emperor taught while he was about physically. And that is exactly why they are not devoted to The God Emperor of Mankind. Whatever one thinks about whether he is a God or what not, the lack of SM devotion to Him as one is the point. As I said, it was not the same as devotion to The Emperor in general, but only to him in his capacity as God Emperor of Mankind.

 

And the many, many schools of thought on whether or not he is a God now, or has been, or will be upon being freed of the Golden Throne, or whatever else, are irrelevant to this.

[The Nephilim]

And the many, many schools of thought on whether or not he is a God now, or has been, or will be upon being freed of the Golden Throne, or whatever else, are irrelevant to this.

 

I would say that GW would never update the story line like that, but I also said, they'd never flesh out the Horus Heresy. It would be interesting to see what happens officially. I don't want to speculate or hear speculation, but still... it makes you wonder.