Those Damn Tau.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Having played a Inquisitor Lord forever.. I'd like to point out that an Elites choice Inquisitor does not receive the 'Iron Will' rule that the HQ one does. That rule in and of itself is invaluable, especially for a unit you don't want to have run off the table :woot:

[Dilgar]

Yeah, lol forgot all about that little bonus, wierd since I´ve always used it as an argument over the Elite choice myself :F...alzheimer light, what can u do :)

[Grabsnikk]

Only 1 warrior can be upgraded to have a plasma cannon. You can still give the other warriors plasma guns if you like but then you're most likely going to be out of range for most of the game so they wont really get to shoot much.

[Zealadin]

I've played a few games against a friends Tau with a pure GK army, and using a LR is unfortunately a bit of a gamble.

Either it will succeed in amazing fashion or be blown to bits.

Two LR's at this point cost isn't really any more viable however, as your already limited on points.

I think as stated before your issue is you have nowhere near enough bodies for the points, and I can't see IST's in Rhinos succeeding unless you are swarming them, as Tau can knock them out with ease. If you had 2 or 3 maybe, but one.... even with the meltas they won't let you get close enough to do anything with them.

You need to avoid playing the tau players game which is charging the gun line, because GK can't generally just muscle their way through like other armies with more bodies.

[Dilgar]

Only 1 warrior can be upgraded to have a plasma cannon. You can still give the other warriors plasma guns if you like but then you're most likely going to be out of range for most of the game so they wont really get to shoot much.

 

How very true, that one has slipped past me. Well thankfully I don´t use plasma cannons so I haven´t been playing illegal lists (though I once proxied three to test em out, -_- ).

[ntgcleaner]

Well, I just purchased another LR with a couple of crusader packs so I can magnetize it all and have either or.

 

So, I feel like I am caught in between of three separate rulings.

 

1. Ally with another army

2. Use more than one LR

3. Dont use ANY LR's

 

Well, I am definitely not going with number 1 as I have a strong feeling for pure GK lists. Number 2 is now possible because I just purchased and put together my LR (I got another Rhino as well so I can start trying a double Rhino group). Number 3 is definitely tryable. We should be playing a game on tuesday this week and I will try out the Teleport list just to see how it goes. After that, I will want to try a double LR fight. He is building his Priannah as we speak so we should be able to get close to 1500 points, then I believe my army will shine!

 

I will let you all know how the Teleport army goes after monday or tueday! Who knows, this could be a viable list against Tau. and I may write a good tactica on just how to beat Tau! ... Slim chances but we'll see!

[stoopicus]

Again a personal opinion, but as a Tau player, if I saw someone bring 2 LR in a 1250 point list, I'd start celebrating the victory sometime around the roll for deployment. Better hope you don't get Spearhead :)

 

That's close to 600 points - half your list - that is going to be out of the fight by turn 3.

 

But play both, let us know how it goes :)

[Chaplain Admetus]

Don't know what I'm doing over in the DH/WH forum since I play Blood Angels, but Tau are my second army so I'll wade in with what I can. Firstly, from looking at the list your opponent plays, splat the troops. Kroot either have no save or a 6+ save at best, they will die fairly easily (I use a unit of about 16 myself most of the time). Secondly, he only has 1 unit of fire warriors. My list runs 36 and tends to get round terminator saves by drowning them in firepower, but your opponent clearly isn't taking that approach, which is handy. If you drop his troops then he physically can't win in objective games, which is a good place to start. I'd also suggest a deep striking unit to get rid of the Hammerhead, since chances are it has a disruption pod (if it doesn't then the Tau player's a fool) - 4+ cover save against shots coming from further than 12" away, its the most undercosted piece of wargear in the entire game. He's likely using the markerlights to boost the BS of his units, which removes the mobility factor (heavy weapon - he can't move and use it). His broadsides are limited in that they have to fire at the same target (unless he's paid the points for a team leader upgrade and a target lock, which racks up)...and the markerlights are in unusual places. If his stealth time markerlights the LR for the broadsides, it makes their burst cannons useless. Same with the sniper team. His army isn't anywhere near as manoeverable as it could be, since Sniper Teams are static, and the fire warriors have no way of making it round the battlefield quickly. With the original list you suggested, I'd pile the lascannons straight into the broadsides - AP2, and Broadsides are only T4, so if you hit there's a 50/50 chance of killing one outright if he has an invulnerable/cover save, if he doesn't then there's no chance. Reserve one Dread for hammerhead duty - with the lascannon and missile launcher you have a decent chance of at the very least making it unable to shoot, and the broadsides can only smack one armoured thing a turn. If you bring 2 land raiders and he can't destroy BOTH of them on turn 1, he's toast. He doesn't have the numbers to survive the Grey Knights in his lines. Good luck!

[stoopicus]

They really should just include the cost for the disruption pod in the base vehicle cost and give you one, to save time adding. I have never seen anyone fail to take them on every vehicle as Tau, except on Piranha, where you technically only need 1/squadron. It's easily the best price/performance vehicle upgrade in the game. Like, in a class of its own good.

[ntgcleaner]

Well, I just finished the game with the teleporting units and I can't tell if THAT was the worste game I have ever played or if the one before it was. The rhinos took a defensive stance right off the start (I had first turn). First turn, one of the rhinos blew up and the passengers inside (but one) were shot to bits by another unit. Second turn rolls around I get the only good dice of the game. I rolled in my Callidus assassin, and two 5packs, the terminators failed the rolls... which ended the game basically... (my whole strategy was to DS as many as I wanted, so if I failed one of them, I would choose to not DS the rest. Unfortunately, the DSing rule states that I MUST roll for each unit in reserve... ruined my plan)

 

The only good rolls I had were Low dice for a low dice purpose, my 5packs scattered a maximum of 3 inches each and the callidus assassin of course was placed where I wanted her. Oh, BTW, the Callidus didn't do her job... Against 2 shield drones and 2 broadsides, she managed to kill the two shield drones and wound the two broadsides once each in two turns (Counting both of his assault phases as well). He took a ton of LD tests with that squad and the other squads that my 5pack shot up and passed EVERY SINGLE ONE. He made all of his 7 armor saves on his stealth suits (2 incinerators each hitting and wounding 4 and 3).

 

only one group of terminators came on in turn three... GUN DRONES killed two of them... the other two were killed by various other means of fire.

 

All in all, The reserve roll, The callidus not doing what she was supposed to (Someone do some math... I don't really think shes the "Broadside/suit" killer everyone says she is), My 5pack each dying the turn they arrived (Doesnt matter how many I had, I took MULTIPLE wounds on each), and my terminators being killed by gun drones, it was a pretty terrible game. I think I managed to kill 2 gun drones and 2 kroot the entire game. I called it after turn 3 because all I had left was a disabled Rhino (who couldn't shoot next turn) and a group of termies in reserve, who probably wouldn't even come in on turn 4 seeing my dice.

 

 

Terrible game, I fall back on what I said before about hating Deep Striking... I Hate it. I'm using two LR's from now on...

[stoopicus]

Yeah, it's going to be very hard no matter what pure (or nearly pure) GK list you take. For my Tau army, like I said, two LR's at 1250 would be my ideal enemy. I run a very railgun heavy list though; conventional Tau wisdom is to take one railgun per 500 points, and I typically use double that under 1500 points, like the list I posted above. Depending on your opponent's list you may have better luck with two LR's, maybe not.

 

I hate deepstriking without a TP homer too. Being able to play with FW rules and take a dread in a drop pod would make a huge difference for you most likely, since it could provide a locator beacon for your deepstrikers (not to mention a dread for the broadsides to shoot at) but that still doesn't guarantee troops arriving at any given time. And of course requires FW rules.

 

The only other way to make deepstrike work well in my experience is to utterly spam it, which is hard at 1250 with GK. Despite hating DS, as I mentioned above, as Tau I am a lot more scared of a bunch of DSing CC units than I am of land raiders. The problem is DS is just too damn random.

 

Let us know how the 2 LR strategy works out for you!

[ArmouredWing]

Well, I just finished the game with the teleporting units and I can't tell if THAT was the worste game I have ever played or if the one before it was. The rhinos took a defensive stance right off the start (I had first turn). First turn, one of the rhinos blew up and the passengers inside (but one) were shot to bits by another unit. Second turn rolls around I get the only good dice of the game. I rolled in my Callidus assassin, and two 5packs, the terminators failed the rolls... which ended the game basically... (my whole strategy was to DS as many as I wanted, so if I failed one of them, I would choose to not DS the rest. Unfortunately, the DSing rule states that I MUST roll for each unit in reserve... ruined my plan)

 

The only good rolls I had were Low dice for a low dice purpose, my 5packs scattered a maximum of 3 inches each and the callidus assassin of course was placed where I wanted her. Oh, BTW, the Callidus didn't do her job... Against 2 shield drones and 2 broadsides, she managed to kill the two shield drones and wound the two broadsides once each in two turns (Counting both of his assault phases as well). He took a ton of LD tests with that squad and the other squads that my 5pack shot up and passed EVERY SINGLE ONE. He made all of his 7 armor saves on his stealth suits (2 incinerators each hitting and wounding 4 and 3).

 

only one group of terminators came on in turn three... GUN DRONES killed two of them... the other two were killed by various other means of fire.

 

All in all, The reserve roll, The callidus not doing what she was supposed to (Someone do some math... I don't really think shes the "Broadside/suit" killer everyone says she is), My 5pack each dying the turn they arrived (Doesnt matter how many I had, I took MULTIPLE wounds on each), and my terminators being killed by gun drones, it was a pretty terrible game. I think I managed to kill 2 gun drones and 2 kroot the entire game. I called it after turn 3 because all I had left was a disabled Rhino (who couldn't shoot next turn) and a group of termies in reserve, who probably wouldn't even come in on turn 4 seeing my dice.

 

 

Terrible game, I fall back on what I said before about hating Deep Striking... I Hate it. I'm using two LR's from now on...

If you're going to go down the route of 2 LR's then I'd recommend holding them in reserve at the start of the game. This'll work for you in 2 ways, firstly it will prevent them from being shot at should you lose turn 1 and end up going second and, secondly, it will allow you to deploy reactively giving you the opportunity to choose cover and pick your targets according to where your opponent has placed his force. The down side is that it'll be random when they appear but that in itself will force your opponent to rethink any possible strategy they've got going because of that uncertainty.

 

It may also be worth putting your termies on board one of them as well and rush on from the table edge, open the assault ramp and get straight into CC (hitting his kroot with this would be a great opportunity to also prevent your termies being shot at for a turn at least).

[number6]

I have to repeat, ntgcleaner: You are not ever going to be able to compete against Tau with a nearly (or all) pure GK army. It simply cannot be done. It's not your fault. It's the fault of the codex itself, and there is nothing you can do to overcome those faults save abandoning the concept entirely and going with an army closer in build to the sample one I posted earlier in this topic.

 

I didn't want to rain on your parade any more earlier, but now that you've played the game with your deep-striking army....

 

Don't ever reserve against the Tau unless you can reliably come onto the table all at once for an alpha strike. That means you need a 2+ (3+ might be good enough) to arrive on turn 2 when you are first allowed make your reserves rolls. If you can't do that, you must deploy entirely on the table. Because otherwise standard reserves just let the Tau simply pick your army apart piece by piece. This is what the Tau do better than anybody else in 40K as it is. Playing standard reserves against them only makes their job easier.

 

Playing dual land raiders is not going to help you either, I'm sorry to say. Railguns will make a mockery of all those points because you don't have any other credible threats to disperse the Tau target priority. And then you'll be torrented off the table again.

 

Seriously, you need to give up the idea of beating Tau with pure GK. Can't be done.

[ArmouredWing]

I have to repeat, ntgcleaner: You are not ever going to be able to compete against Tau with a nearly (or all) pure GK army. It simply cannot be done. It's not your fault. It's the fault of the codex itself, and there is nothing you can do to overcome those faults save abandoning the concept entirely and going with an army closer in build to the sample one I posted earlier in this topic.

 

I didn't want to rain on your parade any more earlier, but now that you've played the game with your deep-striking army....

 

Don't ever reserve against the Tau unless you can reliably come onto the table all at once for an alpha strike. That means you need a 2+ (3+ might be good enough) to arrive on turn 2 when you are first allowed make your reserves rolls. If you can't do that, you must deploy entirely on the table. Because otherwise standard reserves just let the Tau simply pick your army apart piece by piece. This is what the Tau do better than anybody else in 40K as it is. Playing standard reserves against them only makes their job easier.

 

Playing dual land raiders is not going to help you either, I'm sorry to say. Railguns will make a mockery of all those points because you don't have any other credible threats to disperse the Tau target priority. And then you'll be torrented off the table again.

 

Seriously, you need to give up the idea of beating Tau with pure GK. Can't be done.

DEFEATIST!!!!

 

Maybe the lists you play against #6 but the list that's been posted isn't that great by any means, it's just a matter of applying the right pressure to both the army and the player.

 

Seriously, I play against Tau on a very regular basis, against an opponent who has tried and tested every part of the codex to the point where he developed the 'Ninja Tau' principles (Check out 'Gonefishing's profile) and qualified in fine form at the GT with a very large number of VP's under his belt. When it comes to Tau I've yet to find anyone who understands how they tick any better.

With that in mind I've played against him using a variety of lists and tactics and I'm pretty pleased to say that, game for game, we stand fairly even on our W/L/D count. Don't get me wrong, I'm not intending to brag by any means but just want an understanding that I know they aren't unbeatable even when played by an expert hand.

 

So back to the point of debate...

 

I'd be interested in knowing what did the damage to what in your previous game because without knowing who shot what it's difficult to determine where the game went so wrong.

 

There's a number of possibilities that you could try in future games. Early on in my experience of fighting Tau I fielded a Vindicare assassin on a regular basis. His pin-point accuracy shooting always proved to be a winner especially when knocking out the sniper drone controller in the first turn, thus eliminating the entire unit in 1 fell swoop. The other consideration is that when he inflicts wounds on other units they are forced to take pinning tests. A good one for stopping Kroot in their path as well as other potential trouble units that you want to prevent from shooting in the following turn. If you do try him though you need to understand that he provide a very tempting draw for your opponent to use his stealth suits against and chances are he will die but place him away from the rest of your force and it will make it very difficult for your opponent to warrant committing units to kill him whilst being so far away from any other targets.

My last comment on the Vindicare is that he'll very rarely make his points back in a game, but he will earn his points by being a nasty thorn in the side of your opponent and by drawing his attention away from the rest of your force.

 

Another possible option is the Eversor but he's a lot trickier to handle due to being so fragile. A couple of options are either holding him off in reserve to take advantage of his outflanking ability, something that could really run against you in the event of unlucky rolling (2/3 chance of bringing him on on the edge you want) but something that could turn the tide in your favour. The other thing is his 12" charge. If you can place him out of LoS you'll get a 1st turn assault on an enemy unit and against Tau he should perform well...even if he does die (KABOOM!).

 

I guess the real thing you need to consider is how to take your opponent out of his comfort zone. It seems that he's got a set game plan which is working well at the moment. What you really need to do is throw a spanner in the works early on, kill a vital unit/tank and work from there.

 

When facing similar lists with my current list (3 exorcists, 1 HQ immolator, 4 footlsogging squads) I pick a target and hit it until it dies. So, if you run LR's pick off the tanks/long ranged support (with the exception of the broadsides) first. Forget splitting fire, just pick a mark and don't stop until it's gone. Then move onto the next target.

 

My last piece of advice would be to not expect a win straight away but play to improve. Accept your losses as good practice and understand what went wrong through bad tactics and what was bad luck because it does seem you've had a pretty bad run of rolling in some aspects but it will turn around.

 

Keep the faith Brother!

[ntgcleaner]

Alright, still and always good advice from the people here.

 

number6 I know you never intend to rain on anyones parade, you are just giving me hard facts and I greatly, greatly appreciate it. I know its neigh impossible, though, I love the challenge it presents.

 

I was hoping this DSing list could become a new strategy because I still have not seen an army makeup (for DH) anything like it, I was just HOPING it could be awesome. I quickly found out that I still don't like deepstriking. The game went only three turns, I technically had good deep striking luck (maths, says I did anyway) but it was just the fact that I was just picked off one by one as you said. I had incinerators, which meant I needed to get close, so I did and I had great luck with their scatter. My incins definitely hit all they could, but he saved everything but one shield drone.

 

Seriously, you need to give up the idea of beating Tau with pure GK. Can't be done.

I understand your concern and judgement and the facts show me that yes, it is tough, but that's what makes me want to play them even more! I have started a new army, something with more options, I just need to get the rest of the pieces and I can start playing and waiting for the new codex *Crosses fingers*

 

ArmouredWing this past game went wrong because I basically made it easy for him to choose a target and take it out. the Deepstriking made half of my units (my termies) effectively useless because they were in reserves for so long. My assassin did not do what she was supposed to (or at least he passed his LD tests) and my rhino's were smashed to pieces before they could do anything (I played very watery, instead of spearheading like I usually do)

 

I have taken a look at the other assassins and I guess I just need to learn how to use them. I like the callidus so much because she can come in anywhere on the board and fight normally. pretty OP if you ask me. but she didn't kill much. The good thing is that she kept the broadsides at bay for two full turns.

 

The games before that were easy for him because I had a very easy priority list of what to kill first. I always only had 1 LR and 1 Rhino and maybe some termies or dreads. The priority list was simple for him to pick out and he would just hammer away at #1 until it was gone and move on to # 2 because it was not ever an immediate threat.

 

I will still play him weekly and I will try the 2 LR/2 Rhino list on him on our next game. I know it has been advised against because it is easy for his railguns, but what else can I do? I don't have another full army yet and he is the only opponent I have unless I can get out of work early enough to get to a GW store.

 

Finally:

Keep the faith Brother!

I most certainly will. The thrill is in the hunt. In this case, the hunt is the beginning of a game with a fresh list and a freshly painted Land Raider.

[number6]

number6 I know you never intend to rain on anyones parade, you are just giving me hard facts and I greatly, greatly appreciate it. I know its neigh impossible, though, I love the challenge it presents.

[...]

I most certainly will. The thrill is in the hunt. In this case, the hunt is the beginning of a game with a fresh list and a freshly painted Land Raider.

Your spirit is commendable and an example to us all. :(

[salutes!]

[Magua]

Forgive my ignorance, but how did he end up with two broadsides each taking one wound, instead of one dead broadside? Regardless, even if the Callidus doesn't kill the broadsides (though I'd be very surprised at this outcome), she ties them up so they're not shooting you for 2+ turns.

 

Now, I don't have my codex with me at work, but here's some things that might help (and hopefully I'm not entirely wrong on):

 

1) If you're going to go for the Deep Strike list, I would take Brother-Captain Stern, for rerolling the reserve rolls. That should improve your turn 2 to 75% of your forces coming in, at the price of giving your opponent (1/2 # of units deep striking) rerolls on average for the turn where he's shooting you up. Still, having another unit come onto the board is probably better than anything he's going to be able to use the reroll for.

 

2) You can use Holocaust on the turn you deep strike. There's no mention in the rules that you have to be *in* close combat to use it.

 

3) You can run the turn you come down. Chances that you'd want to do this rather than shooting are rare, I suppose, but still.

 

But, that all said, the strength of the Tau (a profusion of high S, and in many cases, low AP, shots) works well against the GK. The strengths of the GK (really good close combat) works poorly against the Tau because of the overkill factor.

 

I think the best tactic a pure-DH army has against the Tau is as many IST Rhinos as possible, with everything else DS'ing. If you're not going to use ISTs and Rhino, I still think DS is the way to go. It's simply too easy for the Tau to immobilize a LR, and at that point your GK are footslogging it anyways.

[ntgcleaner]

Forgive my ignorance, but how did he end up with two broadsides each taking one wound, instead of one dead broadside?

 

She was in HtH combat for two turns, effectively making her able to attack first four times. (his assault phase as well). He had two shield drones and two broadsides in one group. The amount of wounds I caused throughout four assault phases made it so he ended up with two broadsides with 1 wound each. <_<

 

I'm going to keep trying and see what happens... until I get my other army up and running that is.

[boreas]

My guess is that the broadsides were equipped differently (ie one with drone controller the other one with a cheap dark sun filter).

 

Phil

[ntgcleaner]

Actually they were both equipped the same way. They both had 1 shield drone each. Nothing else really, just SMS and TL Rails. I will try to show how the wounds happened.

 

Turn 2, she DS'ed next to them, used the neural shredder to no avail.

She then assaulted (A1) and caused one non-saving wound. The shield drone took it. Poisonned blades did nothing

His assault turn (A2) she caused two wounds. One of the broadsides took one and the shield drone bit the dust. Again, poison blades did nothing.

My assault turn (A3) Only caused one wound. The broadside with no wounds took it. Current count; each broadside has one wound down and one left. His counterattack finally hit for 1 wound on my callidus. Poison blades.... failed again.

His assault turn (A4) She makes zero wounds and dies to the counter attack.

 

EDIT: did I mention he passed all three morale tests? well he did... no falling back for that squad... ever.

 

She was only effective at stopping them from shooting my [already destroyed] rhinos and using their SMS to take out my PAGK's... which died to all other fire as well.

 

I have a two LR, two Rhino list ready to go for next week. let's hope the dice Gods stop frowning on me.

[stoopicus]

Good luck!

 

What's the rest of the list? 2 LR and 2 rhinos takes you over 600 points to begin with, still playing 1250?

[ArmouredWing]

Yeah, lets have a look at the rest of the list. Will your opponent still be using the same/similar list?

[ntgcleaner]

The Tau guy is pretty much going to be the same... I hope.

 

for 1250 pts the list looks like

 

1 BC

4 Termie retinue

 

5 IST's w Melta, Rhino & Smoke

 

5 IST's w Melta, Rhino & Smoke

 

9 PAGK (1 is justicar)

 

2 Land raiders w/ smoke

 

1247 total points.

 

of course, the Termies in 1 LR, the Pagk in another. I don't know what to play with to get 3 extra points... but that is the rough estimate of what my list will look like. four targets that will take down any armour on the board, two of them that spit out massive amounts of hate. I can only hope for a first turn hammerhead kill, then get SOMETHING into CC with the broadsides and crisis suits.

[Magua]

Turn 2, she DS'ed next to them, used the neural shredder to no avail.

She then assaulted (A1) and caused one non-saving wound. The shield drone took it. Poisonned blades did nothing

His assault turn (A2) she caused two wounds. One of the broadsides took one and the shield drone bit the dust. Again, poison blades did nothing.

My assault turn (A3) Only caused one wound. The broadside with no wounds took it. Current count; each broadside has one wound down and one left. His counterattack finally hit for 1 wound on my callidus. Poison blades.... failed again.

 

I'm relatively certain that this is not legal -- BRB specifically illustrates that if you've got a homogeneous unit, wounds must be assigned to wounded models before unwounded ones. This is so that a 10-man nob biker unit can't take 10 wounds without losing a model.

[Inquisitor Fox]

It's legal.. if you have 2 broadsides and 2 shield drones, you have a unit with 4 models. You can assign wounds to the shield drones as opposed to the broadsides, which have 2 wounds each. In short, this unit requires 6 wounds to be done before it goes. The trick is this unit has to have a sergeant upgrade who has a bit of wargear (Hard-wired Drone Controller specifically) that differentiates him from his fellow, thus you have two distinct models and can allocate wounds between them.

 

The shield drones acquire a terminator armor save value due to matching their owners T/armor save, with a Rosarius invuln (which doesn't help against a Callidus). Sooo.. it's quite probable it takes multiple turns to whittle this down.