Those Damn Tau.

[GoneFishing]

Well you are up against it and thats a fact. I have to agree with Number 6 that a pure GK force is going to have a very hard time against a Tau force. Your Troops are good, but very expensive - giving you a low body count for your points - and your armour is mostly inneffective against Tau - No other race in 40K is as good at reliably shutting down Mech than the Tau.

 

Your other two big problems are that you generally play anhilation - not a good mission for your Forces against Tau, as stated you don't have a high unit count and anhilation is the Tau's strongest mission.

 

Your other problem is your Landraiders - You dont have the range (or strength longrange) to reliably shut down 3 Rail Guns before they start firing, and once they do start firing your Land Raiders are just a large expensive mobile coffin. The Hammer Head will hit on a 3+ (So in a 6 turn battle you can expect 4 Hits) and the Broadsides are going to hit more often than not with there TL Rail Guns. If he hits he has a 50% chance of getting a Glancing hit and a 33% chance of Penertrating. With the +1 from AP1 on the Glance he has a 16% chance of wrecking you on a 6, but on a penertrating hit he has a 50% chance of totaling your vehicle on a 4+.

 

I understand you like Land Raiders, I do too! - But as a Tau Player I have to say I love it when I see them on the otherside of the Table - I know I am going to kill them, and as you have such a low model count, and your other armour is ineffective they are going to be the rails favourite target.

 

When you roll up with your Two Landraiders you are effectively fighting 1250 Points of Tau with 750 points of GK's - Because your LR's are write offs. (Even if your get first Turn you are unlikely to get his HH or Broadsides before they can shoot you - you have to hit, roll 4+ to glance 5+ to penertrate, then he gets his 4+ Disruption Pod save, and then you get to roll on the Damage Table. If you Get a Glancing Hit, you cannot destroy it - you have to pray you roll a 3 to destroy his rail gun, if you penertrate you have to roll 5+. His Broadsides are even better off, with 2 Shield Drones to take the Las Cannon shot and a 4+ Cover Save on the suits....even if you hit and wound with all 4 shots the best you are likely to achieve is 2 dead shield drones).

 

Your Dreads are even worse off.

 

All in all almost your entire Heavy Support section is on a losing streak. Your Land Raiders are expensive and ineffective, your Dreads are expensive and even more ineffective, your Purgation Squad is expensive and as a long range threat is fairly inefficent (as they can only carry psycannons, so out ranged and out gunned) - so that leaves Orbital Bombardments! - And the have to be keyed to a specific peice of terrain....which again makes them kind of weak.

 

My advice would be (if you are determined to play a pure GK force) - Start varying your missions, in objective missions you could be far more effective (especially in Capture and Control), drop your Land Raiders - they are an albatross against Tau, and start using a more infantry based army. Rail Guns are inefficent against Infantry, and the Pie Plate and Smart missiles will have to get passed you armour saves (and your Shrouding ability) - I would also consider taking a vindicaire - its your best bet of killing a broadside turn 1 - Use his ability to target a Broadside directly (so he cant allocate the wounds to a drone) and use his Double Wound ability. - If you wound you kill both the Broadside and his Drone (unless he has a cover save) - and that gets rid of 1 rail gun straightaway (and forces a Pinning and break test at Leadership 8).

 

Also as Armouredwing states - Pinning can be effective against Tau, they have low leadership across the board.

 

Other than that I cant really advise, I dont play GK's personally - But Land Raiders are definately not the way to go.

[ntgcleaner]

wounds must be assigned to wounded models before unwounded ones.

not to get off the topic of the list, but could you find that specific passage for me? It would definitely help me in later games.

[ntgcleaner]

GoneFishing, You gave me a lot more incite into this situation. It really is a shame about GK's being so underpowered (Waiting and crossing my fingers for a new 'dex). Since he is my only opponent at the moment and I only have a strong GK army, That's all I am going to play. I will definitely try the new assassin. I have never used him before, so that should be very interesting. I feel like the odds are stacked against me even more if I just used a footslogging army. They seem to not do well at all in almost any situation (because of 5e apparently). I have tried a multitute of lists and so far the best results come from having a LR on the board.

 

Im hoping to use my LR's to take out the broadsides (if I don't have the assassin in there... or even if I do) and my rhino's to take out the hammerhead. If I can take out those two high priority targets, It should be a fairly simple game after that (Assuming I still have at least one of each).

 

I'll see if I can fit in that assassin to this type of list. Maybe make the BC into an INQ lord with a retinue and put him in a LR... or something

 

Edit: I will request that we start playing objective based games from now on. I think we have the basics down. That's the main reason we were playing pure annihilation.

[Magua]

wounds must be assigned to wounded models before unwounded ones.

not to get off the topic of the list, but could you find that specific passage for me? It would definitely help me in later games.

 

BRB, pg 26, "Units of Multiple Wound Models" talks about removing whole models first.

 

But Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen is right that if the broadsides have two different sets of wargear, which it sounds like they do, then they're not identical models.

[ntgcleaner]

wow. So, let me see if I get this.

 

Let's say my Assassin made four wounds, he allocates one to each drone and one to each broadside.

 

He rolls two dice for the shield drones since they are the same and fails one. One drone dies.

He rolls two dice for the identical broadsides, let's assume he fails both wounds. That means one broadside dies? not that they each get one wound?

 

that really makes me re-think a lot.

[ArmouredWing]

wow. So, let me see if I get this.

 

Let's say my Assassin made four wounds, he allocates one to each drone and one to each broadside.

 

He rolls two dice for the shield drones since they are the same and fails one. One drone dies.

He rolls two dice for the identical broadsides, let's assume he fails both wounds. That means one broadside dies? not that they each get one wound?

 

that really makes me re-think a lot.

Yeah, it's starting to look like there may have been some misuse of the wound allocations, that is as long as they were equipped the same.

 

The other thing you need to bear in mind is that if you're talking about a Callidus her C'Tan phase sword doesn't allow any saves, not even invulnerable. So if she wounds, she wounds and there's nothing that can be done about it.

[ntgcleaner]

So if she wounds, she wounds and there's nothing that can be done about it.

 

Oh yeah, I defintely like that rule. (The example above was not the case in the game we played unfortunately, but yes, he would not be allowed saves, which I just read again)

 

Thinking back, it does seem like I was playing it all wrong. So, even if she did make 4 wounds, that means two of his drones die and one broadside dies?

 

Another quick question, does the Callidus user her C'tan in a poison blades attack? so she rolls to hit (WS-WS) then always wounds on 4+, is that wound considered unsaveable as well?

[GoneFishing]

wow. So, let me see if I get this.

 

Let's say my Assassin made four wounds, he allocates one to each drone and one to each broadside.

 

He rolls two dice for the shield drones since they are the same and fails one. One drone dies.

He rolls two dice for the identical broadsides, let's assume he fails both wounds. That means one broadside dies? not that they each get one wound?

 

that really makes me re-think a lot.

 

If the Broadsides are Identical then yes.

 

If the Broadsides are Unique Models (equipped differently) however it would be 1 Wound each.

 

A popular set up for for Broadsides is -

 

1 Broadside - with A.S.S (gives it slow and purposeful)

1 Broadside Team Leader - With A.S.S, HW DC (2 Shield Drones) and sometimes a HW Target Lock.

 

So thats two unique models, plus the 2 shield drones - So, if you were not hitting with a Weapon that causes instant death (such as Armoured Wings rather Groovy Exorcists) you would have to do a minimum of 7 Wounds to the unit to make a Broadside suit take 2 saves (or Wounds if he does not get a save) and stand a chance of killing one.

 

Still, its not all bad news - if you can kill just one shield Drone your opponent will have to make a break test at LD8, if he fails those Broadsides may well start running.

[ntgcleaner]

yeah, I made him run three times... passed them all! I believe they were set up both the same way. is it possible that each broadside had one shield drone and ASS?

[GoneFishing]

yeah, I made him run three times... passed them all! I believe they were set up both the same way. is it possible that each broadside had one shield drone and ASS?

 

 

No - in fact that would be an illegal set up - Broadsides get only 1 support system, and if one member of the team takes A.S.S, then every member of the team has to take it.

 

The only way to give Shield Drones to a Broadside team with A.S.S is to make one of the Broadsides a Team Leader (Or 'Ui) and give him a Hardwired Drone Controller (As Team Leaders and 'Ui's have access to the wargear list).

 

Thats what makes the Vindicaire quite nice in this situation, as you could target the Team Leader and if you killed him, both his Shield Drones would die as well - Meaning he would be left with just one naked Broadside.

 

(Ps. Of you do get a Broadside Team in combat and win, remember that he minus's whatever you won by from his Leadership - so if you inflict 2 wounds, and he does none, he would have to make a leadership test at Leadership 6).

[Inquisitor Fox]

GoneFishing has it correctly... as a part-time Tau player I can guarentee you that you he's quoting the stuff right :(

 

In fact 2 Broadsides w/ ASS, one either a team leader or 'Vre with HW Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones, and HW Target Lock is how I run my own Broadsides...

 

This does make it possible to have 2 Broadsides each with 1 wound each, as they are distinct models and therefore allocate wounds differently.

[Magua]

Another quick question, does the Callidus user her C'tan in a poison blades attack? so she rolls to hit (WS-WS) then always wounds on 4+, is that wound considered unsaveable as well?

 

Don't have codex handy, but I believe the Poisoned Blades rule specifically says that saves are taken as normal, so no.

 

Other Callidus info: Be aware of her superior Hit and Run ability, when used on your turn, allows her to charge that same turn. So in the combat that was given:

 

Your turn 2: She assaults, fights.

Opponent's turn 2: Fight continues

Your turn 3: You can use her Hit and Run to disengage and then re-charge the same unit for the extra attack.

 

Linky: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...5th_Edition.pdf

 

You can also use it to disengage on the enemy turn if you don't think she'll kill the unit, and you want to shoot it.

[stoopicus]

GoneFishing has it correctly... as a part-time Tau player I can guarentee you that you he's quoting the stuff right ;)

 

In fact 2 Broadsides w/ ASS, one either a team leader or 'Vre with HW Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones, and HW Target Lock is how I run my own Broadsides...

 

This does make it possible to have 2 Broadsides each with 1 wound each, as they are distinct models and therefore allocate wounds differently.

 

You can even have three different ones and spread wounds across them (and the drones), since in a team of three one of the two normal BASS can have SMS and one a TL plasma rifle.

 

So that would be five wounds before removing any battlesuits, in a team of three. Sixth wound would kill one. I love my broadsides.

 

Don't forget that shield drones get a CC attack too :)

[ntgcleaner]

I just looked at his setup and you are all correct, it is two broadsides, one has the team leader with shield drones and ASS. so yes, that was played correctly. I remembered the hit and run rule, but I thought I would have to disengage on HIS assault turn to be able to attack again to get the +1 attack. Good to know I can do otherwise!

[GoneFishing]

I just looked at his setup and you are all correct, it is two broadsides, one has the team leader with shield drones and ASS. so yes, that was played correctly. I remembered the hit and run rule, but I thought I would have to disengage on HIS assault turn to be able to attack again to get the +1 attack. Good to know I can do otherwise!

 

You would have to do this - you disengage at the end of the assualt phase, so if you wanted to charge him again you would have to leave combat in his assualt phase, and then charge back in in your own.

 

You never want to disengage in your turn (against Tau) - Chances are we are not going to win the combat anyway, but if you disengage at the end of your own assualt phase that means you will not be locked in assualt during the Tau Turn - Which means he will shoot the bejesus out of you.

[Magua]

Callidus disengages at the beginning of the assault turn, not the end. So she can disengage and then immediately charge that same unit (or another).

 

It is different from the Hit and Run USR.

[GoneFishing]

Callidus disengages at the beginning of the assault turn, not the end. So she can disengage and then immediately charge that same unit (or another).

 

It is different from the Hit and Run USR.

 

Really? Thats a nice little assaination tool! - Mental note to self - Kill Callidus Assasin!

[stoopicus]

note to self - buy Callidus assasin :D

[ntgcleaner]

Sorry to bring this post from the dead, but I just wanted to let you all know that I played the Tau guy again last night at 1250 pts. Our lists looked something like this (quick lists)

 

DH:

-BC w/ 4x termie retinue

in a Land Raider w/ smoke

-9x PAGK (1 is Justicar)

in a Land Raider w/ smoke

-5x IST w/ 2 meltas

in a Rhino w/ smoke

-5x IST w/ 2 meltas

in a Rhino w/ smoke

 

Tau:

-2x Broadsides, 1 is TL with 2x Shield Drones

-5x Stealth suits

-12x Fire Warrios w/ 2x gun drones

-16x Kroot Carnivore

-1x Hammerhead (Railgun)

-1x Crisis Suit Commander w/ 2x Shield Drones & 1x Body guard (Crisis Suit) w/ 2x gun drones

-2x Crisis Suits w/ 2x Shield Drones & 2x Gun Drones

 

I think that's everything he had. He also had plasma? guns?

 

Anyways, It was still a loss but I believe that could have been a big W if we played one more round, he had to go, it was getting late.

We played KP's and I lost 4-6. But that is a major accomplishment over the last game I played and many games before that.

 

Quick rundown,

He sets up and is first turn, deploying on table edges (first deployment) Annihilation.

T1.

Tau - He moves all of his stuff around and gets his kroot into the woods, fires at everything he can see and nothing really happens.

DH - I move everything forward and pop smoke on EVERYTHING. both raiders and both rhinos.

 

T2.

Tau - He wrecks my land raider (with my Termies in it) with his piranah... (He had to roll all sixes and guess what... he rolled ALL sixes) and explodes my rhino on the far end. Two IST's die from the explosion. 2 Termies get shot to pieces. I lose a Lascannon on my other Raider

DH - moved the mobile LR up another 12", disembarked the 9PAGK and took a shot at the hammer head with a Weapon Destroyed result, obviously, the railgun. Termies shoot at the crisis suits behind the broadsides and kill a shield drone. 9PAGK shoot at the broadsides, taking out 1 shield drones, then the 9PAGK get into assault with them and destroy them with a sweeping advance, 5" consolidation gives me a nice long line so the crisis suits have nowhere to run next turn. IST's are disembarked from the mobile Rhino and fail all shots at a piranah.... They get into Assault and get a crew shaken result (whatever the 'no shoot' result is)

 

T3.

Tau - Uses almost entire gun line to kill 6 PAGK. The Mobile Rhino gets a few stunned and shaken results.

DH - 3PAGK assault the Crisis Suit commander squad and give the body guard 1 wound. In return, 2PAGK die, leaving the Justicar to fight another around. LR moves to the Terminators (and they embark), turns around and fires the lascannon and heavy bolter at the Pirannah, leaving it wrecked.

 

T4.

Tau - Can only fire a few things at the Rhino and IST's the Justicar and the LR are untouchable. The group of 5 IST's lose 2 and fall back 8". The justicar lives but does not deliver anymore wounds.

DH - LR moves 12" towards the other crisis suit group, drops off the Terminators who fire and assault the Crisis suits. Total outcome, all drones dead and two crisis suits with 1 wound each who fail their test and run. (Too bad termies can't do a sweeping advance!) The LR takes a shot at the Hammerhead and immobilizes it. The lone Justicar delivers 3 hits, resulting in 3 wounds, which are ALL 3 unsaved. Two drones die and the commander receives 1 wound. He counter attacked and the Justicar saves 3 wounds! He lives to fight another round.

 

T5.

Tau - Kroot Assault the Rhino, and it EXPLODES!!! Taking out SEVEN kroot! (That was the best explodes result ever!) all shots at termies are failed or saved. The Justicar lives again! with no result.

DH - IST's run off the board, Termies shoot and assault the remaining kroot and all are killed. LR takes another couple of free shots at the hammerhead and gets another immobilized result. The Justicar delivers one more unsaved wound before dying to the commander.

 

END GAME! (I'm pretty sure I got all the details down)

Tau 6kps

DH 4kps

 

If the game were to go one more round he would only be able to fire his missiles from the hammerhead at my termies and nothing could touch the LR, I could have tried tank shocking his stealth suits and crisis suits, which were ON his table edge, and then fired on his hammerhead. Then my termies could have a chance at killing two lone (elusive) gun drones (came off of the piranah) for another KP.

 

The star of the game was Justicar Tybalt. He has been 'Knighted' with his new name of Tybalt, meaning Boldest Leader Of The People. He is also scheduled to be repainted and Iconized within the next week. (Yeah, I geeked, "so what? you wanna fight about it?" -Irish guy from family guy)

 

There is still hope!!! Pure GK list at 1250 does pretty well against Tau and I believe it could have been a WIN with a few little changes here and there. It was hard for me to pop smoke first turn and not take some nice juicy shots against his armor... but it definitely paid off.

[ntgcleaner]

BIG TIME WIN against Tau tonight!

 

Daemonhunters: 1070 points left on the board

 

Tau Empire: 143 points left on the board

 

Played 1250 point annihilation, victory points, corners. A hammerhead explode on first shot of the game really changes the outcome! Bat rep to follow.

 

I Knew it could be done, the dice gods were by far on my side.

[Dilgar]

Annhilation games are the best games for DH by far IMO. We usually only got 2-3 troop choices at 1,5k games, so any other game is uphill.

 

I see u are getting the hand of beating Tau, very good. Callidus is the best way for an annihlation victory, u can pretty much count on her to kill a unit against Tau. It is also paramount to hang back as long as u can against Tau, our shruding is actually quite useful, only advance in cover (I mean total cover no +4), wait til those jump suit guys start coming a bit closer trying to get some shots of, then move up and Storm bolt them to annhilation. By keeping your forces togheter, hanging back, u also force Tau player to re-think where he wants to deep strike that commander of his, one lascannon shoot or enough dice from GK will kill him before he says "damn, mystics".

 

May sound cowardish, but really, against Tau and especially in annhilation games, I´ve found that keeping your vehicles in as much cover as possible, preferably completely out of sight from those railguns, for as long as possible pretty much makes the Tau player to skip his turn, he only sees some GK but they are protected by the shruding (I know it´s not that good but shooting Railguns on GK in cover is a direct insult for the Tau player :angry:). Then when Callidus pops up, u usually have some more leverage moving around.

 

Feels like I´m repeting myself, but the Tau are one of those armies I just don´t have a problem with, just trying to explain as good as I can how I beat em (not played against Tau for a looong time though :F).

[ntgcleaner]

Thank you for the advice! Our table set up usually does not have enough cover for my LR's to hide behind... so that's why I always have a tough time getting to him. We ran a 1250 pt list and mine actually did not include the callidus this time, it was something like this:

 

Daemonhunters (Pure)

HQ

BC, 4x termies, 2 have TH/SS

in a LR with smoke

 

Troop 1

5 IST's, 2 meltaguns

in a rhino w/ smoke

 

Troop 2

5 IST's, 2 meltaguns

in a rhino w/ smoke

 

Troop 3

8x PAGK

in a LR w/ smoke

-----------------------------

his list was something along the lines of...

HQ

Commander w/ body guard crisis suit, 2 gun drones, 2 shield drones

 

Troop 1

12x Firewarriors w/ 2 gun drones

 

Troop 2

14x kroot

 

The rest:

5x stealth suits

2x broadsides w/ 2 shield drones

2x crisis suits w/ 2 gun drones

1x hammerhead (railhead)

(I think that's it)

 

Game Type:

1250 pts, annihilation, corner set up, Victory Points, DH has first turn.

 

Turn 1

DH: LRs move up 6" to fully utilize their TLLC's and the Rhinos move up and pop smoke. LR's First shot from LR1 EXPLODES hammerhead. The blast radius is only 1" and takes out 1 gun drone. Early mental victory in my head which I believes leads to strong dice rolling later in the game.

 

Tau: Confers a "Shaken" result on Rhino1 with the Piranha (gun drones disembarked).

 

Turn 2

DH: Rhino2 moves 12" and disembarks the IST's, Rhino1 can not move, so it disembarks the IST's. LR1 moves into cover behind a wall. LR2 Tank Shocks through the kroot who are in woods and makes them run, also has cover behind the Rhinos. IST's2 EXPLODE the Pirannah. IST's1 destroy the gun drones.

 

Tau: Confers a Stunned and Shaken result on Rhino2 and WRECKS Rhino1! 7 IST's die from two full units of fire. One group of 2 break and run, the other group of 1 stays strong.

 

Turn 3

DH: Both LR's move up, squeezing the Tau together in the corner. PAGK Disembark, Terminators Disembark, lone IST moves up. 6 SBolter shots from the Termies kill 1 fire warrior, 16 SBolter shots from the PAGK kill 2 gun drones. LR's both shoot a TLLC at the broadsides, killing two shield drones making the broadsides run. Terminators assault the fire warriors and PAGK assault the commander unit. Terminators kill 9 firewarriors in CC, they fall back. PAGK take out remaining drones and put 1 wound on the commander.

 

Tau: Fire warriors regroup (Bonding Knife), missile pods from the crisis suits immobilized Rhino2, also gains Stunned and Shaken results.

 

Turn 4

DH: Terminators move up, shoot and assault the stealth suits, all are destroyed before the thunderhammers have a chance of attacking. The PAGK finish on their assault on the Commander, nothing stands there. Both LR's fire 2 TLLC's each at the crisis suit squad, LR1 kills two gun drones, LR2 insta-kills both of the crisis suits.

 

Tau: Broadsides run off of the table without doing anything for the game. (I felt bad for him, the dice were definitely not in his favor tonight) Fire warriors kill the remaining lone IST. The kroot assault immobilized Rhino2. 28 attacks, 18 hits, 3 glances, Final outcome: WRECKED (Perfect, if he destroyed it, his kroot would be Kaput)

 

Outcome:

Daemonhunters: take 1,107 pts.

Tau Empire: take 180 pts.

 

There is no mention or roll of/for turn 5. 14 Kroot, 2 firewarriors and 1 gun drone are all that remain on the board. I must say, I had some BTO (better than odds) dice and he had just plain terrible dice. At one point (maybe it happened twice) his TL Railguns on his broadsides missed all shots, being twin linked didn't even help. I am happy because I finally won a game against him. It's been a long time and even back then we weren't playing "for real", we were still learning all of the rules, so this is my first "official" win!

 

I like the fact that it is at 1250 points, it means I can add more to my list to get to the low tournament games of 1500 and still have a strong list! I do think I want to add a couple incinerators in the PAGK though. That would be a first upgrade. Never know when I will be facing a horde army!

 

 

"Never say 'Never'. "