Vanor Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Hullo ;) I'm very new to Warhammer 40k and have some questions about the heavy support tanks. I'm trying to decide what to include in my army, and I'm mostly trying to decide between the Vindicator or a Pred with twin-linked lascannons and lascannons on the sides. I can see the advantages for both, the one is great a dealing with hoards where the other is very well suited to taking out armor or other hard targets. I'm making my list for fun to play at the LGS, and don't have a army type or anything in mind, so I'm looking for the more versatile unit, one that would work well in most any game. But I'm not sure which would would be best, and I can fit either one into my list without too much problem. Money however is a big problem so it's really one or the other for the most part. Also I've been wondering if I'm missing something about Whirlwinds... because they don't seem all that useful. They get Ord 1, which gives them one attack per turn with a small blast template at ST5 AP4 (or ST4 AP5 no cover) attack. I simply don't see how that is all that useful... A Vindicator hits harder with the same template, but with less range. So is there something I'm missing that makes Whirlwinds worth the points? 1 small blast ST5 attack just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 All three of them can be valid options but it really comes down to what your army needs. 1) Predator: I wouldn't use the 3x Lascannon Predator just because its so expensive. A much better value is the "Combi-Predator" which is Autocannon Turret and Lascannon sponsons. All weapons fire out to 48" and all of them are good at killing transports/walkers/MCs which is what you should be shooting at. The advantage is you save 45 points. Hell you could even give it a HK Missile for a 5th long range shot on turn 1 and its still alot cheaper. In a nutshell what the Predator gives you is anti-transport. Since 5th Edition is heavily mechanized, being able to kill that Rhino/Chimera/Trukk/Serpent and forcing their troops to walk up the board can be very important. The drawback to this unit is that you're basically static so you need to deploy well. 2) Vindicator: This is anti-everything. Its strong enough to threaten even a Land Raider but its big enough blast to knock out a mob of Orks. Because of this is tends to die very fast but that means the rest of your army isn't being shot at. I think its the best all comers option because you can move and shoot it at anything. Its short range won't help much against fast moving vehicles or transports (once you're in range, they might already be too close). You also need to protect its weaker side armor but putting Rhinos next to it can do that. 3) Whirlwind: Many people vastly underestimate this unit. Its cheap, has a 48" range and doesn't require LOS to shoot. Its not useful for killing tanks (other then AV10) but it does a great job of thinning horde armies or killing units in cover. Alot of scary but fragile units rely on a good cover save to work, so dropping a pie plate on their head that punchs through both their armor and cover saves can be deadly. Its a fine unit as long as you have your anti-tank elsewhere, which is easy for Codex Marines and all their fast moving Multi-Meltas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFisty Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 The Whirlwind shoots a large blast template not a small one. It uses the same pie plate as the Vindicator at S5 AP 4 or at S4 AP5 ignore cover. The Whirlwind also causes pinning at -1 Ld. Even against MEQ armies the Whirlwind is almost always worth taking and against armies with lesser armor saves it is always worth it imho. I hope that helps. :P McFisty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 Do all Ord attacks use the large template? I thought they used the small one, but it's very possible I miss-read the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamelli Streamfisher Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Yes, all ordinance weapons use the large blast template. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 Yes, all ordinance weapons use the large blast template. Gonna have re-read the rules again apparently. :o But thanks for the info. Makes my decision a bit harder to make now, because for the points I could in theory put in 2 whirlwinds... It's a bit more money then I had planed on spending but I could put off buying a drop pod I had planed on until later. 2 pie plates a turn is quite tempting. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 But thanks for the info. Makes my decision a bit harder to make now, because for the points I could in theory put in 2 whirlwinds... It's a bit more money then I had planed on spending but I could put off buying a drop pod I had planed on until later. 2 pie plates a turn is quite tempting. :cuss Depending on how big of a game you play, 2 might be overkill. They're kind of a niche weapon and while its an important niche, it still doesn't give you much to combat tanks or MCs with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 Depending on how big of a game you play, 2 might be overkill. I see your point, this is for a 1500 point army btw, I have what I feel is a fairly balanced force so far, but am lacking in heavy support. My original plan was to get a vindicator to round things out. But I started thinking about the relatively short range on it and started to consider other options. I have around $75 bucks and 170 points to spend on heavy support. I'm trying to figure out what would give me the best bang for the buck. The Vindicator and Predator are the same cost and around the same points if I go with the auto cannon/lascannon sponsons. Which leads me with some points to spend elsewhere, or I could go whirlwind(s), which would leave me with little way to deal with anything with a AV. If I go with the vindi/pred I could get a land speeder or something of that nature, but then I wouldn't have many points to spend on wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 For 170 points, I think a Vindicator/Dozer + MM Attack Bike would be the best buy. A Dakka Pred/Whirlwind would also be a great buy but that might be too expensive $$ wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 For 170 points, I think a Vindicator/Dozer + MM Attack Bike would be the best buy. Hmmm never considered bikes... Thanks for the idea, I'll look into that. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Combi-Pred is something i swear by. Thats an Auto-Cannon turret with Lascannon sponsons. Comes in at 120 points and gives anti-armour options or 4 shots per turn agains units. Depending on your list one of them plus a whirlwind would be 205 points. I like the whirlwind as it can hide away and drop Ord pn people. The Vindi is one tank i really dont like. Yes its got a powerful weapon but one weapon destroyed result and youve got just a moving wall. Too many points for one weapon IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 I think I'll go with either the Pred or Vindi and an attack bike with a MM. The points work out quite well as does the cost. Just a mater if deciding if I want the Pred or Vindi, both have their advantages and disadvantages. One big gun I can move and shoot with, or 3 smaller guns... Either way I go, thanks a ton for all the advice and opinions. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2263727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFisty Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Depending on your opponent and if they are OK with non-wysiwyg models, proxy both tanks for a while and play test them a lot before buying one. I have found the Vindicator to be like the Dark Side of the Force. It is powerful and seductive but chaotic and dangerous to one self. I have found the Triple Lascannon Predator to be like a faithful old dog. Not flashy or stunning but a scrapper and reliable winner to the last. Your mileage may vary. McFisty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2264106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 I run one of each in my 1500 casual list. A vindi, ww, and pred(twin las and HB sponsons) make for a pretty balanced fire support group. Vindi can kill anything but its 24 inch range can be a liability, you have to keep it away from anything that can rapidly kill armor in assault. The WW eats infantry, part it in cover or out of los and go nuts. I can't tell you how many times the incendiary missiles have made an opponent unhappy. (no cover saves ftw) I have a mark one razorback (twin plasma and las) that I always field with this list as well. It makes a great companion for the predator for tank hunting and lets me flyswat infantry with the vindi a little more. I am constantly amazed at how many times it gets targeted first, and for 75 points its an acceptable loss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2264793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 the more I think and the more advice I get the more conflicted I get. ^_^ Right now my list has a 85 point Scout Marine squad, 5 scouts 1 with a heavy bolter. I'm not using them because I love scouts, but rather because they came with the battlepack, so I use them. Otherwise I'd have to buy another kit, which wouldn't be easy for me to do right now. I'm kind of caught between trying to make a 1500 point list that is both playable, and that I can afford. So the scouts go in because I don't have anything else really that fits right now. I will at some point have more stuff so I have more options on how to build a list. I think I'm quite likely to buy a WW sometime soon and then I could drop the scouts and put in the WW... But doing that seems to make the Pred a better choice in the long run for me anyway, because a Vindi and WW seems a bit more redundant then a Pred and WW... But the Vindi seems to be the superior general purpose heavy support in my case, seeing how it's effective against both hoards and tanks and other vehicles. Then on the other other hand I really love how Pred's look and would like to have one for that reason if no other, and so far every post pro Vindi or pro Pred makes some very good arguments for that tank, so I'm really pretty much in the same spot I was. Option 1) Vindicator w/Dozer blade or Siege shield and an Attack Bike with MM or... Option 2) Predator w/Autocannon and lascannon sponsons and an Attack Bike with a Heavy Bolter. Either way is about the same price, both $ wise and point wise, and I really don't know which way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2264832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Could you not have a combi pred with MM attack bike? I don'town a SM codex so I don't know about points but I think this would be the best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2264862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 Could you not have a combi pred with MM attack bike? Yeah, there's no issue with having the points to buy the MM attack bike if I go with the Pred. In fact the Combi Pred is actually a bit cheaper points wise then a Vindicator with a Siege shield. But and maybe I'm just missing something, but MM's are pretty much only really useful against vehicles, so having a Pred with lascannons and a bike with a MM... Isn't that a bit overkill for anti-vehicle fire? I have a Dread in my list with a MM already so that would give me a Pred with lascannons, a Dread with a MM and a bike with a MM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2264948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 But and maybe I'm just missing something, but MM's are pretty much only really useful against vehicles, so having a Pred with lascannons and a bike with a MM... Isn't that a bit overkill for anti-vehicle fire? I have a Dread in my list with a MM already so that would give me a Pred with lascannons, a Dread with a MM and a bike with a MM. They're also useful against MCs and multi-wound T4 models like Warriors/Nobz. In general, people probably overload anti-tank weapons because while tank weapons can kill infantry, infantry weapons can't kill tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2265211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Yes, all ordinance weapons use the large blast template. Quick rules clarification, Ordnance does not grant blast, it grants 2d6 take highest against vehicles. The whirlwind works bacasue it is barrage. All barrage weapons are blast, or ordnace blast weapons (unless othersise noted) use the large blast marker. It's an important distiction, otherwise Valks get large blast krak missiles for free, which would be really cheesy and nobody would complain about Vendettas ever again. I like my Whirly, I use it when I can. it pretty much is a Heavy Bolter Dev squad for a fraction of the points, and can opt for a cover ignoring bolter shot as well. My Tau opponent HATES it, and the Ork player isn't too fond of it either. It's not all that great against marines, but it'll chew up anything else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2265253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternguard sergeant McColl Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I do have to mention that the vindi, while extremely potent and distracting to foes, has many drawbacks that can be exploited by an intelligent opponent. Even if not detroyed, all results really hurt it, really. A weapon destroyed and you've basically got a moving wall, Immobilized and the enemy can avoid its 45% arc, and every other result is just as debilitating. The predator, while usually being more expensive, does not shudder to weapon destroyed or immobilized nearly as bad. I would go with a combi pred. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2265354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 I think I need to stop reading this thread. :P Every time I think I have my mind made up, I read some posts here and start to wonder if I'm not making the wrong decision. I'm really torn between the vindi and the combi pred. Both have some big advantages and both have some big drawbacks. The Vindi seems to be the better general purpose tank, suitable for both anti-infantry and anti-tank duties. But has the disadvantage of having a Huge target painted on it, limited range and only one weapon. The Pred on the other hand has good range and a hefty punch with 2 lascannons and a autocannon, giving 4 attacks per round. But has the disadvantage of being effectively immobile, and somewhat more specialized for anti-armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2265980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 You could look at it from a playstyle approach. Do you favor a more defensive shooty oriented style or a more aggressive, movement style? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2266040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Do you favor a more defensive shooty oriented style or a more aggressive, movement style? Haven't really played enough to say for sure. :) But I think I'd prefer a more shooty style. One of the advantages in my mind at least is if I go with the Pred, then down the road adding a Whirlwind into my list seems like the more balanced choice instead of a vindi and a whirlwind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2266072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Predator/Whirlwind or Vindicator/Whirlwind can both work. The reason is that Predator can open transports up and the Whirlwind can blast the troops OR the Vindicator can go after heavy infantry/armor while the Whirlwind targets lighter stuff. This is just my opinion but I think that pie plates are more fun to use then straight shooting. The whole idea of a chance to blow up an entire squad makes it more exciting. Not saying its better though. One thing to consider, if you buy a RifleDread, it can handle the same basic role as the Combi-Predator while being more mobile. The disadvantage is you lose raw firepower and you're AV12 vs AV13. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2266079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Could you not have a combi pred with MM attack bike? Yeah, there's no issue with having the points to buy the MM attack bike if I go with the Pred. In fact the Combi Pred is actually a bit cheaper points wise then a Vindicator with a Siege shield. But and maybe I'm just missing something, but MM's are pretty much only really useful against vehicles, so having a Pred with lascannons and a bike with a MM... Isn't that a bit overkill for anti-vehicle fire? I have a Dread in my list with a MM already so that would give me a Pred with lascannons, a Dread with a MM and a bike with a MM. Pah you are talking to a DH player and so at least 4 meltas and 2 multi meltas in 1500. Over obsessed on anti tank? Never! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190862-vindicator-vs-predator-and-whirllwind-questions/#findComment-2266102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.