Origins of the Dark Swords

[CantonWC]

It’s been a while since I’ve posted anything on my Chapter, so I sort of feel obligated to throw something out here so you guys on Liber Astartes at least know where I’m at.

 

Work on the Dark Swords has been extremely slow going; it’s not easy making these IA’s! I’m back at school too, so there’s less time in the day to be thinking about such things.

 

I was writing up the origins section of the IA, attempting to justify why the High Lords would ask for a Raven Guard Chapter to guard a specific, very valuable sector in Ultima Segmentum – we’ll call it Eurales Sector (Yur-RAL-EEZ). Then it hit me like a thunderbolt – I’m still kicking myself for not really thinking about it before. What if the Dark Swords were changed around to be an Ultramarines Successor, but trained in the art of the subtle war by a Raven Guard training cadre? I’m thinking mainly about the Brazen Claws IA in the Liber Honouros Index as a point of influence; an Iron Hands Successor trained by the Ultramarines.

 

Now hear me out before you start thinking I’m trying to “double dip.” I consider myself to be something of a “realist” writer; the stuff I write for this Chapter has to make sense. Is it logical? Is it consistent with the rest of the 40k universe? Is this what would most likely happen? Is it plausible? I love the Raven Guard, but I’m starting to think that an Ultramarine Successor trained by the Raven Guard is more plausible and believable. The High Lords need a Raven Guard-styled Chapter for whatever reason, so they bring in a cadre to train a more genetically stable newly founded Chapter.

 

The main theme I was shooting for before was an “under dog” kind of theme, a Chapter that could conquer the odds again and again, because I think that’s a theme of the Raven Guard. Naturally I lose out on that theme if I switch the gene-seed to Ultramarines, but I think I can still pull off that theme if I can think of some way to bring them in that direction. I think the dual heritage idea also brings in an interesting theme in itself; born of Guilliman, but learned of Corax. It’s making me ask hard questions about who the Dark Swords are, and who the Raven Guard are.

 

For example, is it really necessary to be Raven Guard? Do I like Raven Guard because of their battle style and themes or because they’re not Ultramarines? Is it possible to be a Raven Guard in spirit but not in body?

 

Please let me know your thoughts. The IA is still a long ways away, unfortunately. It'll get a clean thread once it's ready.

[Lt. Smash]

Interesting idea. Love to see more.

Who would they associate stronger with, Ultramarines or Raven Guard?

[gil galed]

surely there must be a stealthy UM successor?

[Lysimachus]

While RG obviously work here, it's ceratinly not necessary to use them. Could easily be that the Ultramarine (or successor) Captain chosen to lead the new Chapter had spent time as commander of the 10th Co, or excelled as a scout himself and always preferred to use those tactics, or fought beside another Chapter that used stealth tactics, etc, etc.

 

There are so many valid reasons a DIY Codex Chapter could become more specialized, and personally I think it often makes said Chapter far more interesting to read.

 

Awesome work you've been doing on the Dark Swords so far btw, really good to see someone putting a lot of time and thought into their Chapter.

 

Lysimachus

[ChaplainMathreyn]

Yeah... There's no reason one Ultramarines successor doesn't specialize in stealthy stuff... I mean, it IS the most used gene sampling... Heck, you could flip through a List of Space Marine chapters, pick one that is just a color scheme, and chances are dang good it's Ultramarine bred, and you could tie them into training your boys.

 

Honestly, I've always thought the geneseed adds just a little bit of "splash" to your Chapter; it shouldn't be the foundation for it... If you Have to rely on Raven Guard successor geneseed to justify your Chapter's existance in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty weak...

 

- I don't know what your thoughts are, but what about new Chapters 25th, 26th? I'd imagine, since these "boys", in the world of older, and more experienced Marines, would have to resort to "sneakier" tactics, while they wrestle with the teachings and the applications of the Codex...?

 

Furthermore, there is evidence of Ultramarines finding out their successors are highly divergent and being taken aback by it (Mortificators, hmm, hmm? I have YET to see Guillieman write "And, lo, the Space Marine, Son of the Emperor, shall eat the brains of thine enemy, and use his heretical skull as a cup for drinking blood from with his brothers."... >.> ... What!? Geez...), so an Ultramarines based Chapter that diverges from the Codex, yet may still follow it "in spirit" is quite acceptable... You could also tie in some good "Father knows best" sort of conflict if they fight alongside the Ultramarines.

 

Just make it believeable, and you'll have no problems... Just saying "They're Ultras, and they like hiding in closets and scaring the enemies of mankind" probably Isn't going to work.

 

Good Luck!

 

Now, I have some heretics to burn in the Name of the Emperor... Brother Sorrelon, bring out the flamers! Brother Anathalus, bring out the t-bone beef steaks!

[Guest Mordray]

Geez... my Void Reavers can be stealthy, but that's a choice and one that only a relative few are experts in. Raven Guard don't have a bloody choice though they have to be the silent lords of battle because they can't replace their losses fast enough to justify any other form of warfare.

 

I've only seen one chapter of Raven Guard (unless I'm mistaken) that did a good job of covering the gene-seed glitch with tactics that minimize losses and they are the Red Lords created by Ace. The Red Lords specialize in long range and rather heavy bombardment of the enemy prior to engaging them 'properly'.

 

I can imagine a gene-seed glitch within an ultra successor that causes them to shift tactics to compensate would seem, to me at least, rather clunky... even though GW can be quoted within the dex... or was it the BBB? ... as stating that few chapters have flawless gene-seed nor even a full set of organs... I'd imagine out there somewhere is a chapter with only the progenoids and the Black carapace... which according to GW is the bare minimum required to be considered to be a space marine...

 

Alright I got off on a tangent and seem to have lost my way...

 

Well since I can't reestablish where I was heading I'll just end this post here and hope it helps.

[CantonWC]

Who would they associate stronger with, Ultramarines or Raven Guard?

 

Raven Guard. The idea I had was that the training cadre was led by one Raziel Scryer, who is just this brilliant, charismatic leader. The Dark Swords take not only their combat doctrine from his teachings, well Corax's teachings actually, but their Chapter creed would be based on many of his beliefs. Most of the Raven Guard training cadre leave at the end of the training phase, but Raziel opts to stay behind and guide the growth of the new Chapter. The Dark Swords revere him so much that after his death every Astartes took up his surname.

 

surely there must be a stealthy UM successor?

 

I don’t know of any UM Successors that prefer stealth. I think it would be kind of weird to just make up a Chapter to set up mine, so they just get their skills from the Chapter/Legion that has made their name on such tactics, you know?

 

The thing with the Dark Swords is that they are not a strictly stealth Chapter. You’re not going to see a whole DS strike force hiding in the bush, that’s just silly. According to the DS theory of war, stealth operations behind enemy lines, with no support are the most dangerous operations, so only Veterans do that job. Once the Vets are finished the rest of the DS come screaming in with their drop pods and Thunderhawks. The enemy will ALWAYS see the DS, it’s just by that time, it’s too late. They’re moving in too fast, they strike in the right places and the enemy is too badly hurt to retaliate.

 

 

Lysimachus, to answer your question I’m not sure if it would work just to have a 10th Company Captain come in to train the new Chapter (would they let a veteran Captain like that go?). When Raziel came in to train the Chapter they pretty much got the whole package from him, their theory of war and their Chapter beliefs. It’s not just scout tactics, they inherited the doctrine of covert operations combined with extremely quick surgical strikes.

 

But at the same time, I’m somewhat hesitant to just pin everything on Raziel and call it a day, or to just graft Raven Guard aesthetics onto a Guilliman template and call it a day. The new dual heritage thing has to be done pretty well. It would be like a passing of the torch, they are Guilliman in body, but their mindset, core beliefs and theory of war are inherited from Corax. They are Raven Guard not because their gene-seed is of Corax, but because they’ve come to believe in and appreciate the Raven Guard’s values.

 

Thanks for your compliments on my other topic, I was beginning to think I was just shouting into the wind. ;)

 

- I don't know what your thoughts are, but what about new Chapters 25th, 26th? I'd imagine, since these "boys", in the world of older, and more experienced Marines, would have to resort to "sneakier" tactics, while they wrestle with the teachings and the applications of the Codex...?

 

My Founding is 8th. Not a huge thing, just a personal choice because my lucky number is 8. The way I see it, status quo is God in 40k, and we'll never move past the eve of the 41st millennium because then we usher in the end times. The more history my Chapter has, the more room I have to make stories :)

 

EDIT

 

Lysimachus your idea of working alongside a stealthy Chapter is good, it just means more work for me since I have to figure out how it will happen. :P But now that I think about it, i think the DS are pretty on their own in Eurales Sector, it's just them and the local Imperial Guard, Navy and AdMech forces.

 

EDIT 2

 

Can't believe I forgot to include this. For those curious, these are the major themes I'm trying to hit:

 

Under dogs

 

I think of RG as kind of being under dogs; these guys if I go with Guilliman stock won’t be under dogs as much, but I think I can still wing it if I can think of something to push them in that direction. They’ll be facing a whole Sector full of alien scum, they need to be able to conquer the odds again and again and pull off impossible victories.

 

Spec. Ops / Professionalism

 

I see a lot of Chapters behaving like crazy Techno Barbarians, which is fine, but I want to do something different, I think it would be a great change of pace to set up the DS as a foil for the typical SM Chapter. I’m inspired quite a bit by popular portrayals of Special Forces groups like the SAS and Delta Force; I guess these guys will still be arrogant SOB’s, but for different reasons than the norm. They look down on other Chapters for behaving like sloppy amateurs and insisting on ridiculous things like honor duels and head on charges.

 

Good Guys in a Screwed up Galaxy

 

I’m not interested in making paragons of truth and justice, but at the same time, I notice a lot of Chapters in the Liber Honouros Index that go “Civilian casualties? What’s that?” and I want to find a healthy balance.

 

These guys want to be Superman, but they’re closer to Batman. They’re a bit humanitarian and idealist in a harsh galaxy that has no place for such things. And they know it, and to a certain extent they accept it or try to. They’re just soldiers trying to do the right thing whenever they can.

[Sigismund Himself]

To me, the key to Raven Guard successors is not their style of warfare but what affect their geneseed flaws have on their history, beliefs and combat methods. If you don't intend the geneseed itself to have much impact on your chapter, then your idea of Guilliman geneseed but trained by the Raven Guard could work out better. I don't think there's any problem with the High Lords wanting a chapter with Raven Guard styled warfare but of stable geneseed.

 

The amount of thought you're putting into this chapter is pretty outstanding, hopefully the finished product reflects all the hard work you've done ;)

[Wildfire]

I was writing up the origins section of the IA, attempting to justify why the High Lords would ask for a Raven Guard Chapter to guard a specific, very valuable sector in Ultima Segmentum – we’ll call it Eurales Sector (Yur-RAL-EEZ).

 

Why wouldn't they? I've never seen anything that restricts new chapters from being located far from their parent chapter's base of operations. Aren't all gene-seed stocks drawn from Mars anyways?

[Darrell]

I don’t know of any UM Successors that prefer stealth. I think it would be kind of weird to just make up a Chapter to set up mine, so they just get their skills from the Chapter/Legion that has made their name on such tactics, you know?

 

There's nothing wrong with making up a Chapter to be the predecessors to your Dark Swords. There are a LOT of Chapters out there, and the First Foundings can only put out so much geneseed for successors. Why not conjure up a Chapter name and make them your predecessor? There's tons and tons of Chapters out there whom GW have merely named, maybe given a color scheme, then dumped to the side. It's not even necessary that you detail the parent Chapter out, although you could always feel free to do so.

 

To me, it seems more reasonable to have your Chapter be trained by a stealth-oriented Ultramarines successor, than to be of Ultramarines stock while being taught by the Raven Guard. It avoids a couple of very difficult questions, such as "Why wasn't the parent trained by their own geneseed?" and "Why would the Raven Guard take up the role of tutor for a Chapter which is not their own successor?".

 

Lysimachus, to answer your question I’m not sure if it would work just to have a 10th Company Captain come in to train the new Chapter (would they let a veteran Captain like that go?

 

With the cadre theory, the Chapter has to let someone go, whether temporarily or permanently. It may not necessarily be a Captain, but it could be. It really depends on how you see the parent Chapter. My Judicators' first Chapter Master was taken from the Libators, a 2nd Founding Ultramarines successor, who was formerly the 10th Company Captain. My reasoning was that Brother-Captain Eusebius had been responsible for bringing the Libators up to full-strength for the first time in centuries, and his recruiting/training experience made him a perfect candidate to strengthen a fledgling Chapter. Other Chapters may have different reasons, but there's an example of why a Chapter may relinquish a veteran Astartes.

 

If you want some alternatives to how you can stealth up an Ultramarines successor, even without a stealthy parent, I'll try to throw some ideas out there:

 

1) When the initial training cadre is sent, they are also accompanied by a copy of the Codex. As valuable as any weapon, armor or vessel that could be sent to the new Chapter, the Codex Astartes is the very word and will of Guilliman. Contained within its unnumerable passages are quotations of philosophy, battlefield lecture, training regimens, ritual prayers, and everything else the Astartes will need to ensure their success in the grim darkness of the far future. It is lovingly caried, but along the way, there is a disaster. Perhaps the small ship is attacked, and the book is damaged, leaving only certain sections readable (These pertaining specifically to stealth operations). Perhaps instead of a physical copy of the Codex, each Astartes within the training cadre has memorized a section, planning to dictate to the new Chapter so they can write their own copy of the Codex Astartes. Unfortunately, an early battle ends in disaster, with many of the cadre left dead or mortally wounded. Only a precious few of the cadre survive, and with them the more stealthy aspects of the Codex Astartes.

 

2) The Chapter's recruiting world is more civilized than those of other Astartes. Where some Chapters take their neophytes from feral deathworlds, or backstabbing hivegangers, the Dark Swords may recruit from a more modern-minded populace. With their more modern mind comes a more modern view of warfare, where wasteful last-stands and unnecessarily dangerous assaults are avoided for more practical means of combat. Perhaps they recruit from a world that is similar to the fortress world of Cadia, where children can field-strip their own lasgun by the age of ten (Ripe picking for the Chapter at that point). Instead of backwards villages, they recruit from top-class cadets at military academies. Here, though, you may run into an issue of stepping on the toes of the Imperial Guard, but nothing says your homeworld can't tithe regiments. Proper justification is needed, of course, but there you go.

 

3) Stealth combat evolves as a necessity of the Chapter. If they are stationed in an isolated area of space, constantly surrounded by enemies, and only rarely resupplied, what other choice do they have? If the Dark Swords have been around since the 8th Founding, they've had plenty of time to form their own opinions about combat doctrine, totally separate from those of their initial trainers. If the Dark Swords are to successfully police their area of the galaxy, they may have to resort to any and all means necessary, including some things which other Chapters would deem "dishonorable". But what could be more dishonorable than failing to perform your duties to the Emperor? If that means a few knives in alien backsides, dipping your bolts in poison and wearing cameoline cloaks, what of it? At the end of the day, the Chapter is alive and the Imperium is safe. You have nothing to prove to anyone except the Emperor Himself, and the regime of turning a mortal into an Astartes does not rob him of his brain. Use it.

 

Finally, one more suggestion. A Chapter being the underdog is fine, but the phrase "constantly succeeding against all odds" is a dangerous one. It treads the line of The Emperor's Mary Sues, which can quickly cause disinterest. Also, remember that if your Chapter is constantly coming out on top, they lose a lot of their appeal as underdogs and start to be the big dogs. Victories are always fun to read about, but losses can also add a huge amount of character and flavor to a Chapter's history. Would the Crimson Fists be as interesting if their homeworld wasn't invaded, or their fortress nuked into ashes? Would anyone even care about the Celestial Lions if their Apothecaries weren't assassinated, and their Companies left to die, all because they stood up to the Inquisition? Do you know a single Imperial Fist fan who doesn't stick their chest out a little more when they hear the words "Iron Cage"? It is the grim darkness of the far future. Don't be afraid to expose your Chapter to it.

[CantonWC]

To me, it seems more reasonable to have your Chapter be trained by a stealth-oriented Ultramarines successor, than to be of Ultramarines stock while being taught by the Raven Guard. It avoids a couple of very difficult questions, such as "Why wasn't the parent trained by their own geneseed?" and "Why would the Raven Guard take up the role of tutor for a Chapter which is not their own successor?".

 

I guess it depends on how you think the training process goes. Is it more along the the lines of, a parent Chapter donates the gene-seed and provides the cadre too? Or more like the AdMech picks a gene sample from one of the stocks tithed long ago from an UM Chapter and picks someone to train the Chapter or a Chapter just volunteers to do the training?

 

In the case of the latter a RG-trained Successor becomes more plausible.

 

When the initial training cadre is sent, they are also accompanied by a copy of the Codex. As valuable as any weapon, armor or vessel that could be sent to the new Chapter, the Codex Astartes is the very word and will of Guilliman. Contained within its unnumerable passages are quotations of philosophy, battlefield lecture, training regimens, ritual prayers, and everything else the Astartes will need to ensure their success in the grim darkness of the far future.

 

This isn't really related, but one of the huge problems I have with the way GW writes their fluff that I feel I should just get off my chest, is how the Codex Astartes is portrayed. It's the master work of Guilliman, containing not only his theories but the wisdom of hundreds of military tacticians through the ages, thus making it the ultimate military tome, right? Cool. But GW just seems to love implying that blind, unthinking adherence to the Codex is a really, really bad thing. Even if you just did exactly what the Codex says for any given situation without bothering to think about it, wouldn't you still have a reasonable chance of coming out okay?

 

The Chapter's recruiting world is more civilized than those of other Astartes

 

The DS are a fleet-based Chapter; it's one of those little details born out my "realist" concerns. They're a very pragmatic bunch, they've got a whole Sector to cover and they don't have the time to sit around on a home world. Lord Commander Raziel, when he realized the severity of the situation in Eurales Sector, pretty much declared a permanent Crusade, vowing that his men would never rest until the entire Sector was cleansed of alien filth. It's a pledge that has been renewed by every Chapter Master ever since.

 

3) Stealth combat evolves as a necessity of the Chapter. If they are stationed in an isolated area of space, constantly surrounded by enemies, and only rarely resupplied, what other choice do they have? If the Dark Swords have been around since the 8th Founding, they've had plenty of time to form their own opinions about combat doctrine, totally separate from those of their initial trainers. If the Dark Swords are to successfully police their area of the galaxy, they may have to resort to any and all means necessary, including some things which other Chapters would deem "dishonorable". But what could be more dishonorable than failing to perform your duties to the Emperor? If that means a few knives in alien backsides, dipping your bolts in poison and wearing cameoline cloaks, what of it? At the end of the day, the Chapter is alive and the Imperium is safe. You have nothing to prove to anyone except the Emperor Himself, and the regime of turning a mortal into an Astartes does not rob him of his brain. Use it.

 

You must have read my mind :lol: This is pretty much the default mentality of the Dark Swords.

 

The DS believe that it's not about any one Marine. It's not even about the Chapter; it's about the Emperor, it's ALWAYS about the Emperor and the mission He entrusted to his Astartes. Everything an Astartes does must contribute in some way to fulfilling the manifest destiny of mankind, just as the Emperor wanted.

 

Since serving the Emperor is already the greatest honor one could ever have, the DS don't have any concept of personal glory or honor in battle. Well, maybe not something that drastic, but it's drilled constantly into their heads that teamwork is more important that glory hounding, putting the Chapter and the Emperor first, etc. This is the reason why the DS are so hostile toward other Chapters; they stereotype most other Chapters as being not only unprofessional, but too busy gratifying their own egos and winning personal glory instead of doing what is necessary to fulfill the Emperor's vision. It doesn't matter how you win a battle (with the obvious exception of dabbling in Chaos or consorting with aliens, since that completely contradicts the Emperor's teachings) so long as the job is done, and done quickly and efficiently. Maybe if other Chapters took their jobs as seriously as the Dark Swords, the Imperium wouldn't be in the deplorable state it is in now. Arrogance from another direction. ^_^

 

Finally, one more suggestion. A Chapter being the underdog is fine, but the phrase "constantly succeeding against all odds" is a dangerous one. It treads the line of The Emperor's Mary Sues, which can quickly cause disinterest.

 

You don't need to worry. I'm making a conscious effort not to stray into that trap.

 

There aren't any super weapons of doom, or age old prophecies that only the DS can fulfill. Just good old two-fisted SM butt-kicking action. Batteries not included though.

[CantonWC]

I should be in bed sleeping, but I just can't stop thinking, so I'm putting some notes down.

 

I'm seriously considering dropping the RG thing. Shocking, I know. The idea, again, is to be Guilliman in body but Corax in spirit. The only question is how to get there. I don't want to pin both my combat doctrine and Chapter creed on the first Chapter Master that trains the group, but... it's a bit easier than writing out extra history :D The trick is to arrive at the RG values I like so much (Corax in spirit) by way of convergent evolution. I have to nail both tactics and beliefs without making it seem too convenient.

 

The current idea rattling around in what passes for my brain is to start with an ultra-strict, Puritan type Chapter that obeys the Codex line for line, no imaginative thinking, deviation is heresy, etc. But there's one Captain (Raziel Scryer) that's very different from the rest, he's a bit of a maverick and a "free-thinker"; he argues for different tactical applications of troops and to treat the Codex more as a general guideline rather then mindlessly obeying it word for word. He's very charismatic and well-liked by his men, but not by anyone else.

 

Cue the 8th Founding. Maybe the Puritan Chapter isn't as invested or doesn't care about the new Chapter for some reason, or it's just a case of the AdMech picking a random gene-stock derived from a tithe taken long ago and put in stasis, and they ask for a volunteer. The Puritans see this as an ideal way to get rid of the troublemaker. Both sides win; the Puritans aren't bothered by Raziel anymore, and Raziel can test out his theories with his new Chapter.

 

Thoughts?

[Lt. Smash]

It works. But the combined gene-seed, no matter how hard to work in, is cool. Although the new idea is good to and explains the chapters orginisation fairly well. But does Raziel have to be particulay rebellious? Freed from the restraints of his former chapter he might have decided to try new tactics as a spur of the moment thing... And remain with the more free-thinking chapter.

 

Just my $2...

 

And why do people seem to be using the term puritan and radical in their IA's in relation to their actual chapter?

I thought they were specific Inquisitor, type terms.

[Ace Debonair]

Hmm, can't believe I missed out on this.

 

I like the Dark Swords as they are, but this alternate idea is equally intriguing.

Since you were going to play off of the degrading geneseed for the chapter's flaw and weakness, what faults, if any, would you incorporate into this theoretical chapter?

 

With regards to the terms puritan and radical, I think their use here is just the use of terms we recognize as 40K fans to depict the different elements within the chapter.

Besides, both of those words were about long before the Inquisition. :D

 

Have you had any thought as to which chapter the Dark Swords would be founded from?

[Lysimachus]

The current idea rattling around in what passes for my brain is to start with an ultra-strict, Puritan type Chapter that obeys the Codex line for line, no imaginative thinking, deviation is heresy, etc. But there's one Captain (Raziel Scryer) that's very different from the rest, he's a bit of a maverick and a "free-thinker"; he argues for different tactical applications of troops and to treat the Codex more as a general guideline rather then mindlessly obeying it word for word. He's very charismatic and well-liked by his men, but not by anyone else.

 

Cue the 8th Founding. Maybe the Puritan Chapter isn't as invested or doesn't care about the new Chapter for some reason, or it's just a case of the AdMech picking a random gene-stock derived from a tithe taken long ago and put in stasis, and they ask for a volunteer. The Puritans see this as an ideal way to get rid of the troublemaker. Both sides win; the Puritans aren't bothered by Raziel anymore, and Raziel can test out his theories with his new Chapter.

 

Personally, I think this works extremely well, much less convoluted and more logical. However, as Ace said, what flaw will you add in to compensate for losing the RG gene-seed stuff? Perhaps this:

 

Maybe if other Chapters took their jobs as seriously as the Dark Swords, the Imperium wouldn't be in the deplorable state it is in now. Arrogance from another direction.

 

could work, as it would mean they were more or less on their own. Also, if they were affected by the same attitude towards other Imperial bodies (AdMech springs to mind), that could place them in the position of not being as well supplied as they'd like?

 

 

Lysimachus

[CantonWC]

It works. But the combined gene-seed, no matter how hard to work in, is cool

 

If Raziel stays as RG, his gene-seed will die out within a century or two. The Chapter Apothecaries wouldn't be prepared for how volatile RG gene-seed is. It would be a huge point of grief for the Chapter; their beloved master's physical legacy is gone.

 

And why do people seem to be using the term puritan and radical in their IA's in relation to their actual chapter?

I thought they were specific Inquisitor, type terms.

 

I'm just using Puritan in a general sense; a Chapter that's traditionalist. Sorry if I confused you.

 

Have you had any thought as to which chapter the Dark Swords would be founded from?

 

Not sure. I'm slowly moving away from having a jerk-ass Parent Chapter. I just need some fairly respectable Chapter to descend from. Silver Skulls come to mind for some reason.

 

Since you were going to play off of the degrading geneseed for the chapter's flaw and weakness, what faults, if any, would you incorporate into this theoretical chapter?

 

Personally, I think this works extremely well, much less convoluted and more logical. However, as Ace said, what flaw will you add in to compensate for losing the RG gene-seed stuff? Perhaps this:

 

QUOTE

Maybe if other Chapters took their jobs as seriously as the Dark Swords, the Imperium wouldn't be in the deplorable state it is in now. Arrogance from another direction.

 

 

could work, as it would mean they were more or less on their own. Also, if they were affected by the same attitude towards other Imperial bodies (AdMech springs to mind), that could place them in the position of not being as well supplied as they'd like?

 

The thing I was going off before, was that RG suffer from low numbers all the time. I thought of them as having access to certain kinds of tech, but not others. They would lose out on Predators and Land Raiders but compensate with Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders and Bikes. A Chapter starting from more plain jane roots would not have as much reason to be so specialized, but they could still develop their preference for high speed attack over time.

 

What I envision the Dark Swords doing in Eurales Sector is mainly planetary assault; spearheading reclamations of Imperial worlds or leading genocides on alien-held worlds. They pop out of the Warp, send the drop pods and Thunder hawks screaming to the planet surface, crushing vital targets and allowing the Imperial Guard to follow up and sweep away the now disorganized enemy. Heavy tanks would be left behind, since it’s too much trouble to set up and deploy them to the surface. Everything has to be deployed via T-Hawks and drop pods.

 

I guess the DS can still have low numbers if they want to be careful about retaining genetic purity.

 

 

I have been trying really hard to nail down some central themes for these guys. I’m going back and reviewing stuff like Castigators and Grief Bringers; they work really well because they have or two strong themes and carry it through the whole IA. The DS seem to be juggling multiple themes.

 

Something I think could work would be the theme of pride. Pride, and the dangers of having too much pride. I’ve always thought of Raziel Scryer as being an overall pretty cool guy; maybe I need to approach him from a different angle.

 

I could portray Raziel as a complete ****. I’m thinking of Ashoka the Great here; the man was pretty much a jerk until he killed way too many people and realized he had to turn his life around. In his first few years Raziel makes a huge mistake due to his arrogance and it results in a lot of Marines/civilians being killed. He’s so horrified by what he’s done that he makes a complete turnaround in his way of thinking.

 

This can work on a number of levels. Due to a penitence crusade/low numbers the Chapter has to fight much more conservatively. The Veterans start to take up sneaking duties the way I always wanted them to. The Chapter starts fighting much smarter, taking less risks, less brazen assaults, less head long charges to satisfy personal honor. By now they’ve seen what pride can do to a Chapter. At first all this will be done grudgingly, but after the initial period of chastening they will have more or less gotten used to it. They’ll notice, for example, how Veterans operating behind enemy lines can get much more done than just sending novices for recon, allowing enemies to be defeated more efficiently.

 

Raziel would be forced to re-evaluate his outlook. Is he doing what he’s doing for the Emperor, or for himself? He does away with all notions of personal honor and glory, because such petty ambitions caused him to lead the Chapter into disaster. He stresses teamwork, humility, duty to the Emperor first, the Chapter second. Personal battle honors and citations are forbidden from being displayed; the mission must always come first, the squad and Company placed before the individual.

 

He might need to rethink how he views ordinary people. Before they were little more than cattle; now he realizes he was wrong, his duty is to the Emperor and the Emperor demands that his people are protected. When he refocuses his priorities he might come to appreciate normal people and their capabilities and qualities more. Fighting alongside the capable and competent Eurales Guard and Navy would help that line of thinking along.

 

 

I’ve always thought of the DS as being more or less alone in Eurales Sector. It’s just them, the local Guard and Navy and AdMech against a horde of alien freaks. The AdMech are rather strange, with their machines and rituals, but I don’t think the DS have any real reason to dislike or distrust them. Everyone’s got to get along in Eurales; the humans sink or swim together.

 

It’s other Chapters that are the problem. They are arrogant, they insist on absurd tactics to satisfy personal honor, they don’t even bother to do scouting and sneaking because it’s “dishonorable.” They are guilty of pride, like the DS were, but they haven’t learned their lesson yet. At the very least they care more about their petty egos and are not focused 100% on fulfilling mankind’s manifest destiny and protecting the Emperor’s people like he would have wanted; at worst, their pride could lead them into dangerous thoughts, to covet things they should not have, to believe themselves superior to humans rather than watching over them.

 

 

Hmph. I know what I want my Chapter to be:

 

Covert operations combined with lightning surgical strikes

Humility, professionalism, a tendency to look for the simplest and most efficient solution

Compassion for humanity, utter hatred for aliens

Strong belief in the manifest destiny of mankind.

 

I just haven’t settled on the road to bring them there.

[Lt. Smash]

You could add a rebellious streak to your chapter Space Wolf style, (fighting the system to an extent) which works with the compassion for humanity bit. As for the act that Raziel did. Why not exterminating an entire planet due to a suspected genestealer/chaos/whatever infestation.

 

Oh and I wasn't confused. I had really only ever read offical fluff until recently

[CantonWC]

Back and forth, back and forth. I am so indecisive.

 

Let's make Raziel a nice guy again for a moment. I'm searching through the list at Lexicanum to pick a name for the Parent Chapter. Benedictors, Iron Angels, Confessors, Exemplars, something related to lions or griffins. For some reason I'm getting the image of monastic, crusader knights. Very stuffy, traditionalist atmosphere.

 

Then comes Raziel; he's the maverick, the black sword of the Chapter. That's kind of corny, but stay with me here. He advocates different tactics, looking at parts of the Codex no one's looked at in millennia. He's advocating, gasp, stabbing the enemy in the back when he's not looking! Striking at night with camouflage! Striking the weak portions of the enemy, then wheeling away instead of massed gunlines and honor duels.

 

The traditionalists don't like their honorable way of doing things being challenged, and many heated debates ensue. When the High Lords ask for a volunteer to train a new Chapter, Raziel happily packs up and leaves with his loyal men. Either that or the traditionalists all but kick him out. Cue some cheesy monologue about how Raziel is a dark sword of the Emperor (as opposed to a bright, noble one) and we've got something of a beginning.

[Ace Debonair]

Really, really digging the pride-costs-lives approach. Raziel making a huge mistake, having an epiphany and turning his life around completely is pretty cool.

 

The only problem I have with the nice-guy maverick idea is that I just don't know how Raziel would get to high enough office within the stuffy chapter to be elected to lead a new one.

If you can answer that then either approach will work marvellously, and it's just a question of which one you like more.

 

If you can't decide, write both. The one you get into the most will be the one you should probably go with. ;)

[CantonWC]

Really, really digging the pride-costs-lives approach. Raziel making a huge mistake, having an epiphany and turning his life around completely is pretty cool.

 

The only problem I have with the nice-guy maverick idea is that I just don't know how Raziel would get to high enough office within the stuffy chapter to be elected to lead a new one.

If you can answer that then either approach will work marvellously, and it's just a question of which one you like more.

 

If you can't decide, write both. The one you get into the most will be the one you should probably go with. laugh.gif

 

Hmm, let’s see how we can spin this.

 

Raziel in his positive incarnation I think of as being this brilliant, larger than life figure, someone that his Chapter is constantly looking up to. Someone that can lead through feats of arms, through leadership and tactical skill, or through sheer force of personality.

 

I’ve always thought of Raziel as being somewhat youthful, so let’s make him a young Captain, the youngest Captain in the history of, say, the Exemplars Chapter. Obviously not a normal occurrence, but we can imagine that Raziel is something of a prodigy. Some in the Chapter would be put off by his hot blooded and enthusiastic personality; others would take a liking to him, recognizing his gifts and seeing him as a strong leader for a new generation of Exemplars. Raziel would be brought pretty much the same as any other Exemplar, but generally more aggressive than the rest of the Chapter, which is stoic, conservative, and steeped in tradition.

 

Raziel’s first assignment as Captain is to take his Company and participate in a joint campaign with other Chapters against a nearby enemy, an Ork Waaagh or something, or maybe a stint in the Deathwatch. There he meets… the Raven Guard :huh: , among others.

 

Raziel returns home from the campaign after a few years, significantly changed by his experience. He becomes displeased by the stuffy, elitist atmosphere cultivated by the Exemplars, having learned to respect the methods and philosophies of other Chapters. His natural curiosity prompts him to review the Chapter’s copy of the Codex, looking for new interpretations, looking at sections the Chapter has not referenced in centuries. Perhaps he brought home copies of the Codex from other Chapters, since many Chapters seem to have differing versions of the Codex. I could work in another angle as well: the Exemplars do not include Librarians in their ranks, being intolerant of ‘witches,’ and the rumor goes around that Raziel has learned to respect the Librarians he fought alongside.

 

It’s not long before some arguments break out. Raziel continues to lead his Company to victory after victory, but his tactics have noticeably changed. Rather than the massed gun lines and frontal, head on attacks that are the hallmark of the Exemplars, he starts advocating a much quicker, more mobile style of warfare. Land Speeders, Bikes and Dreads instead of Predators and Land Raiders, infantry that can strike a vulnerable enemy position before fading away, keeping the enemy off-balance but never directly engaging him in a head on confrontation, always using the element of surprise and superior positioning and terrain. Use of elite Veterans in covert operations, weakening the enemy while at the same time expending significantly less energy and resources. Even use of the sniper rifle, seen by the Exemplars as a weapon of cowardice; close combat is the most honored tradition of the Exemplars.

 

The debates get more and more heated; the conservatives (i.e. everyone) accusing Raziel of radicalism and subverting the Chapter’s time-honored traditions, Raziel and his supporters arguing for a more efficient, sensible and flexible fighting style to better serve the Emperor. Tensions are almost at a breaking point and might have dissolved into something ugly when the High Lords commission the 8th Founding. Raziel happily volunteers to train a new Chapter derived from the Exemplar’s tithed gene-stock and leaves his Chapter behind. Perhaps in other circumstances the Exemplars would not have allowed a young radical to go off and train a new Chapter, but cooler heads don’t prevail and the conservatives are happy simply to be rid of him.

 

Might come back later and write a little bit more.

[Ace Debonair]

surely there must be a stealthy UM successor?

 

How did I miss this?

 

I don't know of any official ones, but I was, long ago, working on a chapter called the Twilight Talons, a stealth 'n' sorcery Ultramarines successor.

If you like, the Dark Swords could have come from them before the 'Talons got into their psychically-inclined habits.

 

They were going to get a major re-write (Literally everything but the chapter name and the core idea) once the Iron Gauntlet is over, but I could always do it sooner if needs be.

Although, you have since gone on to come up with other, better ideas than descending from a stealthy Ultramarine chapter. :P

 

I like what you've got for Raziel the good-guy.

What about Raziel the proud? Or have you made your decision?

[CantonWC]

A stealth and sorcery Chapter? ;) I don’t know how that works out. I’m kind of reluctant to latch onto other Chapters, because you never know where the Dark Swords might end up. Still… I’m open to joint projects.

 

I suppose it’s only fair that I explore Raziel as a proud jerk guy before making a decision. The problem with nice maverick Raziel is that his character development happens “off-screen,” before getting to the Chapter proper, and would involve the crusading knight parent Chapter a bit more than just a passing mention. OTOH, proud Raziel making a mistake leading to horrendous casualties and being forced to re-evaluate the direction of his Chapter might be seen as a bit basic and overdone; I’m thinking specifically of the Warlords Chapter in the Liber Honouros for a textbook example of doing “pride and redemption” correctly.

 

Proud Raziel is a bit older, enough to get a few more battles under his belt but not enough to be fully entrenched in the ways of the parent Chapter. Nonetheless he’s a prime candidate to lead a new Chapter and is shipped off to Eurales Sector. Maybe along the way he meets up with a different Chapter, like the Twilight Talons, ^_^ and although he scorns their cowardly tactics, he’s nonetheless impressed by the results they can achieve.

 

Raziel doesn’t have too much time to get settled in Eurales; one of his earliest confrontations is with the insidious Eldar. I don’t think I’ve seen any Chapter yet that sets up Eldar as the big bad, so that’s a plus for me. I think it might be worthwhile to briefly detail who these Eldar are and what they’re up to, since they’re a prominent fixture of Eurales.

 

They are Eldar of the Craftworld Imbrathil. Or Ymbrathil. Something that starts with a Y, I, V, or K, and ends in –ar or –il. They are a somewhat small/medium size Craftworld, but extraordinarily warlike, cut from the same cloth as Biel-tan; most of their citizens are under arms or Aspect Warriors. Apart from the usual Maiden Worlds they are looking for something in Eurales, something significant to the Eldar race, and they are quite keen to keep Imperial forces occupied and away from unexplored regions in Eurales. Most of the xenos activity from within and without can be directly attributed to the Eldar playing up their magnificent bastard chessmaster status. Overall not the only big bad in the Sector, but certainly one of the biggest.

 

I think that the DS’s first major confrontation with the Eldar is a very important event in their history, so it will show up in some way in the final IA regardless of whatever else happens. For now let’s make it a generic battle to defend and retake an Imperial world, or Maiden World or whatever. Most of the Chapter makes planetfall. However, apart from being on the defensive, not a good place for an Astartes, Raziel just can’t corral the Eldar due to their superior speed and mobility. The standard and straightforward tactics Raziel formerly employed are of little use against the subtle and secret ways of the Eldar; challenges for personal combat are met with laughter and derision.

 

Still, Raziel stubbornly continues on his own way, refusing to resort to dishonorable methods of fighting. Disaster finally strike near the end of the campaign; the Eldar engage the DS on open ground in a massive attack. Due to the DS’s earlier losses and low morale they are utterly routed; the 4th Company is nearly wiped out to a man. Raziel is finally forced to see sense; the DS withdraw in disgrace from the field and leave any Imperial citizens left to their fate. Imperial reinforcements arrive too late, and it’s decided to simply leave the planet alone and establish a cordon.

 

Poor Raziel locks himself in his quarters to pray and fast, seeking guidance from the Emperor and the Codex. Although the battle with the Eldar was likely beyond his means, he wonders if he could have made a difference had he not stubbornly held onto his old beliefs and traditions and adapted to changing circumstances. After he finalizes his new interpretations he emerges from his chambers and grimly announces the new mission statement to the Chapter. His men, though wary of discarding so many proud traditions and beliefs, obey the edicts of their Chapter Master.

 

Hmm. Not perfect, but that’s the general train of thought for “pride and redemption.”

[Ace Debonair]

Raziel doesn’t have too much time to get settled in Eurales; one of his earliest confrontations is with the insidious Eldar. I don’t think I’ve seen any Chapter yet that sets up Eldar as the big bad, so that’s a plus for me. I think it might be worthwhile to briefly detail who these Eldar are and what they’re up to, since they’re a prominent fixture of Eurales.

 

:huh: This is getting spooky.

My Twilight Talons became the way they are just so they could excel at Eldar-fighting. ;)

Nevertheless - I'm going to be changing a lot of stuff about my Talons later, so whatever you do with the Dark Swords, I'll make it priority #1 not to copy them too closely.

 

If you want the two chapters to have something of a history, that could be interesting. I haven't really got anything for where or when the chapter could be founded, so I have little problem having them come into existence just in time to have an influence on the Dark Swords.

The Twilight Talons are going to be under close scrutiny from various Inquisitors at times, so I suppose if nothing else the Dark Swords could also come under brief scrutiny for using similar methods. Albeit without the excessive psyker stuff of the TT, but I doubt the Inquisition will want to take any chances. :D

 

Back on topic, however, you aren't making this easy.

Good guy and bad guy Raziel are both awesome. :( That said, I have to lean slightly more towards the second one. I don't know, it might just be personal preference, but I think that the second portrayal of Raziel will make it easier for him to influence his chapter and get them to where you want them.

[CantonWC]

huh.gif This is getting spooky.

My Twilight Talons became the way they are just so they could excel at Eldar-fighting. laugh.gif

Nevertheless - I'm going to be changing a lot of stuff about my Talons later, so whatever you do with the Dark Swords, I'll make it priority #1 not to copy them too closely.

 

If you want the two chapters to have something of a history, that could be interesting. I haven't really got anything for where or when the chapter could be founded, so I have little problem having them come into existence just in time to have an influence on the Dark Swords.

 

It could be more of a one-off thing. Raziel meets the Twilight Talons on campaign and takes some inspiration from their methods, without necessarily copying anything outright. Or maybe I don't really need to specify, just have it so Raziel is widely traveled and becomes inspired by the cultures and schools of thought he meets to review the Codex and come up with a new doctrine.

 

What are your ideas for the Twilight Talons, considering the MO of the Dark Swords (covert operations combined with drop pod/surgical strike/maneuver warfare)?

 

The Twilight Talons are going to be under close scrutiny from various Inquisitors at times, so I suppose if nothing else the Dark Swords could also come under brief scrutiny for using similar methods. Albeit without the excessive psyker stuff of the TT, but I doubt the Inquisition will want to take any chances. biggrin.gif

 

I don't think I have much to gain by antagonizing the local Inquisitors. For the most part the DS are pretty cool guys; they keep their noses clean. The Ordo Xenos in particular likes them as they have become so efficient at exterminating aliens.

 

Back on topic, however, you aren't making this easy.

Good guy and bad guy Raziel are both awesome. laugh.gif That said, I have to lean slightly more towards the second one. I don't know, it might just be personal preference, but I think that the second portrayal of Raziel will make it easier for him to influence his chapter and get them to where you want them.

 

I prefer the term proud jerk guy, but whatever suits you :blush: I like the first one better though. With the first, he sets up a nice clean base without having to invest additional time in writing extra character development through fighting. Also, since he's teaching his Chapter his ideas on warfare from the beginning, there's less chance of dissent and wanting to go back to the "old ways."

 

What I'm really shooting for is making Raziel an epic, larger than life persona, someone the Chapter constantly strives to emulate but never quite reaches. When he dies his Chapter takes up the tradition of giving new recruits Raziel's surname. This is useful from a writer's standpoint because then I don't have to figure out what everyone's last name is :D But it also reinforces the ideals Raziel held so deeply; brotherhood, emphasizing the Chapter ahead of individual ambitions, loyalty to Raziel's vision and by proxy the Emperor's vision.

[Ace Debonair]

What are your ideas for the Twilight Talons, considering the MO of the Dark Swords (covert operations combined with drop pod/surgical strike/maneuver warfare)?

 

Ok, let me give you the updated summary. The Twilight Talons are founded, fight orks for a few years, get trounced by Eldar, resort to comitting all librarians exclusively to strategic prediction rather than battle, and beat the Eldar via ambushes, decoys and generally playing the stealth game. They decide what they are doing is dangerous, but since the Eldar have a nasty habit of continuing to show up when not expected, they feel they have to continue down that road, drawing the attention of the Inquisition. Their combat generally focuses on small squads achieving larger goals, with armour or assault units usually for decoy purposes, although all tactics are open to change on the orders of any Librarians overseeing the combat.

 

On balance, it won't be too hard to make them different from the Dark Swords. :P

I suspect a very distant association, if any, would probably work better. Subtlety and stealth are the hallmarks of both chapters, after all.

 

I can easily make the mention that other chapters contributed to some of the battles against both orks and eldar whilst the Talons were numerically disadvantaged after meeting the Eldar without throwing specific names about.

Plus the idea of two stealth-oriented Ultramarine successors having secretly worked together (in so far as it's not overtly mentioned) works quite well, I think.

 

I like the first one better though. With the first, he sets up a nice clean base without having to invest additional time in writing extra character development through fighting. Also, since he's teaching his Chapter his ideas on warfare from the beginning, there's less chance of dissent and wanting to go back to the "old ways."

 

And that's what I was waiting to hear. :P

Well, that's that decision made, eh?