JusticarDanny Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 I just played against a nid player this past weekend with pure GK's and the result was a staggering 14 KPs for the Grey Knights and 6 KPs for the nid player. I had 2 Land Raider Crusaders which can fire both Hurricane bolters all the time even at crusising speed plus one machine spirited weapon. I have to say that if you do this on a regular basis you must have a copy of the Daemonhunters FAQ on you becuase they will question you on this. The codex covers the hurricane bolters and the FAQ will cover the machine spirit. The nid player was loosing so bad that his buddies kept questioning everything I was doing, like no machine spirit on the codex. They ended up helping me out and screwing their buddy because they went as far as using an Iphone to check the GW website FAQ and proved themselves wrong. The reason I got so many KPs from the nid player was because he was having a really hard time trying to destroy 2 land raiders that never moved anything less than 12'' which means he only hits it in CC on 6s. Which meant his swarms were eating alot of bolter rounds every turn from the raiders. The nid player also proxied a Tervigon which has to spawn 3D6 number of Tarmagants everyturn and my raiders were there to kill them all in one swoop, earning me a kill point. The psycannos an the GKTs are perfect for those pesky Zoanthropes since it ignores invulv saves. The nid player did manage to destroy on of the Raiders by the third round only beacuse he proxied a Mycetic Spore (aka Tyranid Drop Pod) with a Carnifex in it right next to my land raider. Oh well, good thing I brought two of them. There was an issue I was not happy with, the nid player used a special character called The Doom Of Malan'Tai, which is basically a Zoanthrope with unique psychic powers. One of the powers is called the Spirit Leech and it states that at the beginning of every shooting phase including the foe's, every non vehicle unit within 6'' of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a wound for every point they lose by(ignores armour saves), and the character absorbs those wounds to a maximun of ten. Well of course I said my GKs are fearless but the nid player insisted that this power has nothing to do with fearless units and they still have a LD value. When I asked a GW employee, he said the power is not see whether a unit stays or not it's like the Tyrants leech essence which ignores fearless units. Since I was obviously winning I let the poor guy kill the GK squad. Soon after that the Zoanthrope ate a bunch of psycannon bolts and was charged by a Dreadnought. Overall the game was alot of fun even if his friends kept questioning my integrity about my armies abilities. The nids had a really hard time killing those land raiders. Also the GM and his force weapon was even more deadly. If you see a lot of MC's I recommend bringing Stern who brings another force weapon to the table. What do you guys think about the Doom of Malan'tai and the tyrants leech essence? Should they ignore fearless units ( as in make them take a LD test). Whats your opinion and how should we deal with this new problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabbala Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 By the USR, fearless only lets you automatically pass morale or pinning test. The leadership test required by Spirit Leech is neither. As for killing it, even though it has 4 wound, it's only toughness 4 and it's an infantry unit. There are a lot of options for instant killing this thing down as it trundles across the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2263910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
revnow Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Kabbala is correct. Spirit Leech forces a characteristic test, not a morale check (morale, regrouping, pinning). Fearless only means units don't have to check for morale and pinning. So you are still required to check against your Ld on a 3d6. This shouldn't be all that terrible though since the average roll is a 10/11, which means that half of the time GK are going to pass it anyway. Here's some good advice for dealing with the Doom. Most Nid players have yet to figure out how to attach an IC to the Doom in order to protect it. So in general, it will be out in the open by itself. This is especially true if the Nid player is smart and buys a spore for it. You have two choices at that point. Sink meltas you would otherwise be using on mech armies into it until it fails a +3 invulnerable save (part of why melta is still preferable to plasma against Nids). Or, hit it with psycannons. It is T4 5+/3+, so if you have enough psycannons you can knock it off early before it builds up wounds. It's really just a situational decision. Also, by staying in a transport you avoid being affected by spirit leech. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Also don't forget The Aegis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyznetsovich Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 I read the rules for it when the codex came out (Friend plays Nids) and thought it was nasty. Although it is only toughness 4, so even bolter fire can rail it if the player fails enough 3++ saves. On a similar topic, this same friend was showing my an article about it on.. I think it was BoLS, but a guy posted a battle report with the new nids where his Doom of Malan'tai cast a template psychic power which scattered back onto the Doom and wounded it. Now if I remember correctly, for every wound it does it increases it's strength by 1, yes? This guy used that wound to increase it's strength value. No FAQ's out on that being legal or not yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticarDanny Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 By the USR, fearless only lets you automatically pass morale or pinning test. The leadership test required by Spirit Leech is neither. As for killing it, even though it has 4 wound, it's only toughness 4 and it's an infantry unit. There are a lot of options for instant killing this thing down as it trundles across the board. He used a mycetic spore and charged my unit of GK's right after they jumped out of a raider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticarDanny Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 Also don't forget The Aegis. This Doom of Malan'tai does not require a psychic test to perform the spirit leech it's like an essence that surrounds it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Ouch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Actually, by RAW, the power is not even a Psychic power at all! So no blocking it with the Sister's 5+ save or Psychic hoods! Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntgcleaner Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 He used a mycetic spore and charged my unit of GK's right after they jumped out of a raider. you didn't assault out of the raider? Am I missing a rule? I would figure if you get out of the raider with a horde army like that, you'd better be getting into CC with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexTalon Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 He used a mycetic spore and charged my unit of GK's right after they jumped out of a raider. you didn't assault out of the raider? Am I missing a rule? I would figure if you get out of the raider with a horde army like that, you'd better be getting into CC with it. I read it as, the nid player blew up the LR, so his troops had to get out, and were attacked after they got out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2264985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntgcleaner Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 oooh I never associated his first raider blowing up with them "jumping out". I assumed it was a voluntary jump out. instead of a bailout. sry Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Not to high jack your topic here but I had a question about the Hive Tyrant. Not sure if this player had a tyrant in his list or not, but was wondering how you guys treated the tyrant with a guard unit. Guard unit says that tyrant can join them as though he was an IC. BRB says that IC that are MC can always be picked out of a unit unless that unit is also MC Guard are not MC. This change from the last codex where it specifically said that the tyrant could not be picked out. But this is not mentioned anywhere in the new codex. That rule seems straight forward enough with 1 shot weapons, that you can always target the tyrant. But how does that work with more than one shot? Can I say that everyone in my unit is targeting the tyrant? Or is it that I get to place the first hit on the tyrant? Do I get to pick which weapon hits the tyrant, say the Melta or Crossbow? I can see where this would really bone the tyrant... but he is huge compared to the guard which is the entire point of that rule. Also, do you think that targeting rule will be changed in the FAQ? Something stupid like... well that rule doesn't really apply in this case, as it specifically mentions IC who are also MC... and the tyrant isn't technically an IC... the fact that he is a MC in a unit of non-MC is irrelevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Also, by staying in a transport you avoid being affected by spirit leech. Spirit Leech can effect units inside transports also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I thought that one ws still up for debate!? Any RAW argument I didn't come across? Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souba Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 the thing about the Doom of Malan'Tai is pretty hard... i got the New Nid Codex too and his reall strength is his Absorb lifeforce. for every wound caused by the doom of malan'tai. he gains 1 Wound up to a maximum of 10 wounds. so it can basically heal itself with his spirit leech. his template psi power is pretty nasty. uses the large blast. has X str and AP 1. the strength is determinded by his actual amount of wounds. whenever he uses that psipower he loses 1W3 lifepoints. he loses his life after the psi power hit. so with 10 wounds its str 10. note for every wound caused by it (even by this psipower) he gains 1 wound Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticarDanny Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Not to high jack your topic here but I had a question about the Hive Tyrant. Not sure if this player had a tyrant in his list or not, but was wondering how you guys treated the tyrant with a guard unit. Guard unit says that tyrant can join them as though he was an IC. BRB says that IC that are MC can always be picked out of a unit unless that unit is also MC Guard are not MC. This change from the last codex where it specifically said that the tyrant could not be picked out. But this is not mentioned anywhere in the new codex. That rule seems straight forward enough with 1 shot weapons, that you can always target the tyrant. But how does that work with more than one shot? Can I say that everyone in my unit is targeting the tyrant? Or is it that I get to place the first hit on the tyrant? Do I get to pick which weapon hits the tyrant, say the Melta or Crossbow? I can see where this would really bone the tyrant... but he is huge compared to the guard which is the entire point of that rule. Also, do you think that targeting rule will be changed in the FAQ? Something stupid like... well that rule doesn't really apply in this case, as it specifically mentions IC who are also MC... and the tyrant isn't technically an IC... the fact that he is a MC in a unit of non-MC is irrelevant. Valourousheart, When a HiveTyrant has a Tyrant Guard it then becomes a Retinue. In the shooting phase the Hive Tyrant is a MC which means you can shoot at it but the nid player can allocate wounds on the guard. However, because the Tyrant is an MC and the Tyrant Guard is not, if you shoot at it with lets say lascannnons, since you targeted the Hive Tyrant, there are no cover saves allowed. The nid player can still allocate wounds to the guard but they will most likely be instakilled since they do not get a cover save. In CC though the Hive Tyrant is treated as an upgraded member of the squad and therefore cannot be singled out in close combat. I hope this helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Also, by staying in a transport you avoid being affected by spirit leech. Spirit Leech can effect units inside transports also. I don't think so. While there is no hard and fast RAW to support this, neither is there any hard and fast RAW to support Spirit Leech working on embarked units. So far to this point, the game has never allowed embarked units to be affected by anything, be it shooting, psychic powers ... anything. Generally speaking, the game does not consider embarked units to be "on the table". And units not on the table aren't actually in play. Explicit exceptions are made for allowing units to shoot through firing points and/or use a psyker power while embarked. I think the explicitness of those exceptions, and the way the game treats embarked units in all other aspects sets the precedent there. Spirit Leech won't -- shouldn't affect embarked units. Hopefully GW will FAQ this to settle it once and for all. But I would recommend playing the game as I've described it for the time being for consistency and ease of play. After all, what happens if your embarked unit takes 25% wounds and fails its morale check. Does it then fall back? How can it? It's embarked, right? So ... does that mean they are automatically destroyed for being unable to fall back? Or are they forced to disembark? Well, the only rules that force disembarking are when vehicles are destroyed. Spirit Leech (or similar) has no effect on vehicles? See. ;) The implications are just too hairy and the game system literally breaks down if you pursue the alternative. Don't mess with it. When a HiveTyrant has a Tyrant Guard it then becomes a Retinue. In the shooting phase the Hive Tyrant is a MC which means you can shoot at it but the nid player can allocate wounds on the guard. I think that's the clear intention of the Tyrant Guard. But I don't know that the RAW actually supports it. The key rules verbiage "retinue" isn't used. The basic game rules say that MCs can always be picked out as a distinct target. It's not quite clear that this means the 'nid player can or can not allocate wounds to the unit in general. Most people seem to think that there isn't any tyrant guard rules overriding the BRB MC shooting rules. I don't know that I fully agree with that logic, but I do fully understand it. It's an argument that has merit. Again, we can hope that GW will FAQ it clearly. Until then, expect to have it played both ways. :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2265802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I look at it this way. What does it even mean for an embarked unit to break? Are there even any rules to cover this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2267561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 What does it even mean for an embarked unit to brea it doesnt break , you roll 3d6 substract your LD and those are the number of wounds you lose. That is if it could work on units in transports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2268378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Affecting units in transport seems weird to me. Even if its possible. (does it require line of sight by any means?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2268603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I don't think so. While there is no hard and fast RAW to support this, neither is there any hard and fast RAW to support Spirit Leech working on embarked units. So far to this point, the game has never allowed embarked units to be affected by anything, be it shooting, psychic powers ... anything. Here's the excellent breakdown of why it does effect units inside transports that my housemate made on the BoLS lounge. If you can't follow it then you're not reading the rulebooks... :rolleyes: Doom of Malan'tai rules breakdown. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2268942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I have a feeling this will be clarified in a faq very soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2269200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyalist Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 One of my Red Hunter terminator squads fought a couple of Doom of Malan'Tais in the GW Tyranid mega-battle last Saturday (Jan. 30). Both Dooms emerged from the same Tyranid hole on successive turns. The first attacked but had bad dice rolls and did no damage, allowing my 5-man terminator squad plus Terminator Chaplain to return fire and insta-kill it with Cyclone krak missiles. In the next (last) turn another Doom of Malan'Tai emerged and had more success, frying four Terminators. That was the last move of the game, leaving the Chaplain and Sgt. about to fire and assault. The Doom of Malan'Tai isn't hard to kill but if it gets the first shot and has already boosted its strength it can do a lot of damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2269419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karitas Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Interesting. It's all semantics really. the case "for" the ability affecting embarked units is that; by being embarked on a vehicle that is in range, the unit is therefore in range. The case against is equally simple, that by being embarked the unit is now a "Vehicle unit" I'd say it's another case of RAI being in contradiction to RAW, If it were me playing, I usually go with RAI, but I know I'm rare in playing 40k for fun rather than to win <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190901-the-doom-of-malantai/#findComment-2269463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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