The Doom of Malan'Tai

[GTang]

The argument's not restricted to the Doom critter, though. As it looks like all the other Hive Tyrant powers are worded the same way.

[the jeske]

yes but psychic powers do target[unless they own rules say otherwise] , doom has a special rule not a psychic power.

[Mortifis]

The argument's not restricted to the Doom critter, though. As it looks like all the other Hive Tyrant powers are worded the same way.

 

As the jeske says - all the Tyrant powers are Psychic Shooting Attacks. Two combined factors that disallow it from affecting units in transports - its a psychic power, and it counts as "shooting". Spirit Leech from the Doom of Malan'Tai is neither.

 

 

 

Brother Hadafix, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that you can hurt units that are in reserve? That is clearly against the rules. What we're showing people here, is that if the unit is measured to be in range (because the rules for transports tell us they are), the models themselves don't have to be on the table.

 

That's a big difference.

 

And also by your arguement, Plasma overheats can't kill units in transports, because they don't have their models on the table. This is clearly a false position.

 

 

If people are having trouble keeping up, lets go back to the start, with the rules, summarised here.

[Bartali]

When in doubt, I like to go by permisive rules rather than strict RAW, as I find it clears up a fair few problems.

 

Using RAW I can use my Deathwing Apothecary to ignore failed Land Raider cover saves. However as no other apothecary can do this, does the rule specifically give me permission to ignore vehicle cover saves ? No, so I play that it doesn't.

 

Until it's faq'd I'll be playing that Doom can't effect units inside of vehicles. On a side note did anyone see the INAT ruling ? I don't have an issue with their ruling that it does effect units inside a vehicle, rather the ruling of giving units inside a cover save. It seems like too much of a halfway house, and I can't quite work out the logic for that cover save.

[Brother Hadafix]

What we're showing people here, is that if the unit is measured to be in range (because the rules for transports tell us they are), the models themselves don't have to be on the table.

 

Using that same technicality, the Mawloc does not leave play, as the only way to leave play once deployed is the dead pile.

You would also have to measure from the carrier space in the rear, as well as presume that you can immobilise the vehicle by taking out the crew. It doesnt work, and the rules are iffy at best for it being able to affect those that are being transported, and no rules regarding casualties while embarked for things that do not affect the vehicle its self.

 

The rules for the Doom do not explicitly say that the power affects embarked units, those that have power that can, or options for powers for embarked units, are covered in the rules or the codex. The rules for Plasma Cannon are as written for that weapon, unless your going to argue Bio Plasma works the same way, be careful what you want others to except.

 

It hangs on technicalities and ones that can be argued for and against. In till it gets an errata or FAQ, expect others to see it another way. Both have a valid points, both are technical points in the way the rules are written.

 

Nice try, but if someone tried this on me part way through a game, they would be looking for another one sharpish, if discussed at the start, it would be a dice off.

[Mortifis]

Bartali - I don't have a suitable answer for your Deathwing Apothecary. Yes, by the rules as written, you can. Sometimes artefacts like this arise between Editions changes. However, it cannot be argued that the Doom of Malan'Tai is in any way comparable to this.

 

And yes, I regret that I have seen the INAT document. It is a complete waste of space, and an impressively bad list of flagrant rules abuse, inelegant rules changes, and thoroughly inadequate rules knowledge.

 

 

Brother Hadafix - I still don't understand what you're trying to say. The rules for the Mawloc tell us "remove it from the table and place it back into reserve". In this case, we're removing the unit as well as the model, because units in Reserve, by definition, are not on the table.

 

Units in transports is a different story. The unit is still inside the transport. Removing the models from the table is an abstraction, because almost nobody has a vehicle model that will physically fit the models from the unit it is transporting inside of it. The models are set aside, not "in limbo", nor in some "extra-dimensional space" that makes them immune to anything or everything. And more specifically, the unit is exactly where the rules say they are - inside the vehicle.

 

 

An example I saw on the BoLS Lounge - if someone walks past your table and points at your Terminator models on the side, and asks you:

"What's happening with your Terminators over here? Are they waiting to Deep Strike?"

 

Do you answer:

"No, they're inside this Land Raider over here." (Which they are - inside a transport.)

 

Or do you say this:

"No, they're in an extra-dimensional space, because units inside transports don't exist anymore." (Patently absurd, as demonstrated)

 

 

In regards to the overall issue, I'm still waiting for someone to bring an actual, reasoned argument against the Spirit Leech power. Devolving into absurdity to cloud the issue is exactly what caused the INAT authors to spend an inadequate amount of time in reading the rules. Almost nobody anymore bothers to read the rules anymore, they just play the way they've always played, or how they vaguely remember it working, or how they've been told it works by somebody else. Suddenly theres an outcry and calls of "rules-lawyering" when people want to play by the rules. That doesn't seem fair to me.

[Skiman94]

Sure I will bite. You measure to a Hull. You show me how you measure to a unit with a Hull that has the Unit type infantry. The power says it affects non vehicle units. BY raw you measure to a Hull. That is a vehicle unit. Sorry power does not work.

[the jeske]

nope m8 by the rules a transported unit[and it doesnt have to be infantry , it can be bikes , jump packers, mc etc] , if it interacts with the battlefield [psychic hood, shots from a fire point etc] it is where the hull is. when a librarian uses his hood it is not the rhino that uses the power, when two csm shot their plasma from top hatch of a rhino its not the rhino that is shoting. when eldrad sits in his falcon its not the falcons that is using fortune , runes etc.

[Mortifis]

Sure I will bite. You measure to a Hull. You show me how you measure to a unit with a Hull that has the Unit type infantry. The power says it affects non vehicle units. BY raw you measure to a Hull. That is a vehicle unit. Sorry power does not work.

 

As I explained in my last post, and even better in this link, all we are doing is measuring range.

 

If the vehicle is within range, the embarked unit is within range.

 

Once we have determined range, we look at all non-vehicle UNITS and apply the effect to them. Honestly, it can't get any simpler than that.

[Skiman94]

And as I have said show me what UNit type you are measuring range to. You are measuring range to a Hull. A hull is a Vehicle. Your right it gets no simpler than that. that means it does not affect the embarked unit.

[the jeske]

And as I have said show me what UNit type you are measuring range to

infantry. for purpose of checking range the hull of a transport is where the transported[infantry or not] unit is . When the transported guys shot it is the unit inside[type infantry] is shoting and the game rules tell us that the unit is where the hull ends. When they are shot back they cant be targeted by melee or shoting attacks [doesnt mean they arent there] , but doom doesnt do a shoting or melee attacks it just checks range .And if a transported unit is able to check the range to other models from the hull [and not just that stuff like psychic hoods , carbulo giving FC to BAs etc] , then a unit that just checks the range to force a test can do it too.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

As the jeske says - all the Tyrant powers are Psychic Shooting Attacks. Two combined factors that disallow it from affecting units in transports - its a psychic power, and it counts as "shooting". Spirit Leech from the Doom of Malan'Tai is neither.

 

Actually 2 Weapons can draw shooting to units within transpots by raw. The Hive Guard weapon and Smart Missile Systems. Nothing limits shooting attacks beyond LOS and drawing ange when you dont need LOS you can 'target' units within Transports by drawing range to the Transport's hull (as per Draw to or from the Vehicles hull quoted above). Anyway that aside, I would group the doom effecting transported units in with that sort of thing as well its a silly strange thing to have happen since clearly Spirit Leech is fluffwise Psychic Power and Psychic Powers cant effect transported units (I have no idea why not but that is another matter)

[Cale]

Not actually true, Bob. To check range for shooting, you must measure to a model in the target unit. You're not measuring range to the unit when shooting at it, you're measuring range to a particular model in the unit.

 

The rules on page 67 allow you to measure range to a unit, and that's sufficient for Spirit Leech, which affects units within 6".

 

However, those rules on page 67 do not allow you to measure range to any particular embarked models. While the unit has a position on the table which is co-extant with its transport, none of the models are on the table, and none of the models have a position on the table. Thus, you can't measure range to a model for shooting, and thus for shooting attacks embarked units are never in range--even for weapons which ignore line of sight.

 

That being said, Spirit Leech obviously affects embarked units. There is no cogent argument to the contrary. The fact that these threads keep going despite the obviousness of the rules engenders in me despair for humanity.

[Brother Hadafix]

67 do not allow you to measure range to any particular embarked models. While the unit has a position on the table which is co-extant with its transport, none of the models are on the table,

 

And that is why the Dooms power does not work on units in transports. Rules and counter rules.

 

I have seen this going around and around through different forums, and that is all it does. Till GW pipes up with a clear answer its going to be a case of checking before the game.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Not actually true, Bob. To check range for shooting, you must measure to a model in the target unit. You're not measuring range to the unit when shooting at it, you're measuring range to a particular model in the unit.

 

That being said, Spirit Leech obviously affects embarked units. There is no cogent argument to the contrary. The fact that these threads keep going despite the obviousness of the rules engenders in me despair for humanity.

 

I suggest you read the rule again.

 

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." pg66

 

"When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit." pg 17.

 

In this case you are measuring a range involving the target unit that doesnt require los and would then connect to rule on pg66. The Tank for all intents and purposes is the models in the unit for ranges essentially.

 

 

No cogent arguement by raw for stopping spirit leech. Its more of a RAI arguement in that it really doesnt make a whole lot of sense for it to be such a strange exception to all over common rules. I think thats why this arguement will never go anywhere praticularly helpful.

[number6]

I'm starting to see circling repetition here, folks. This topic exists out of band here in the OI only because it's been mostly productive. I suggest you either offer something entirely new to the topic, or let it rest because everybody here is acting like either an Immovable Object or an Irresistable Force.

[Mortifis]

With respect to number6, I shall try not to repeat any of my previous comments in addressing the recent questions raised in this issue.

 

 

Bobmakenzie - while on face value that quote may have relevance, on further inspection is relates only to shooting. I will attempt to detail different types of measuring, and when to use them.

 

Page 11 - applies to Movement. Models may move up to their maximum distance. Some conditions apply. You may measure their move, then decide to move them in a different direction or not at all.

Page 17 - applies to Shooting. You check range by measuring from each firing model to the nearest visible model from the target unit. All keywords here are only applied to shooting attacks/weapons.

Page 34 - models are moved as in Movement, but with different conditions. If the enemy is found to be out of range (one imagines by measuring the range from the closest model to the closest model) then the assault doesn't happen.

 

Page 66 - if you need to measure a range to the embarked unit (not to be confused with models), we measure to the hull of its transport to determine range.

 

Key issue here - all examples except p66 require you to measure to a model. Taking the first three segments separately and in combination with the fourth, we arrive at the following conclusions. Since none of the models are on the table yet, they may not:

==> Move (except where detailed under transports, p67, Disembarking)

==> Shoot (except where detailed under transports, p66, Fire Points)

==> be Shot At (at all, because you cannot measure range to their models)

==> be Affected by Psychic Powers (unless the Psyker is also inside the transport, as per Warhammer 40,000 FAQ)

==> be Assaulted (you cannot make base-contact with an enemy model from the designated unit)

 

All of these things require models physically present on the table.

 

 

By contrast, Doom of Malan'Tai's "Spirit Leech", does not require models at all, only the proximity of units. And, as p66 informs us, you measure the position of the embarked unit by measuring to the hull of their transport. Allow me, by way of example, to demonstrate. My computer is not cooperating, so you will be spared some terrible Paint diagrams.

 

For Spirit Leech to affect a unit, it needs only two things - for the unit to be a non-vehicle unit, and for that unit to be within 6".

So, if Marneus Calgar is 5" away, he will be affected. As Infantry, he is non-vehicle. At a range of 5", he is clearly within 6".

A Devastator Squad is 7" away, they will not be affected. As Infantry, they would be eligible. But they are not within 6".

A Rhino is 4" away. It is a vehicle, so is ineligible. It is most definatly within 6".

A Tactical Squad is embarked in that Rhino. They are Infantry, which is non-vehicle, and therefore eligible to be affected. They are embarked in a position that is within 6". Therefore, clearly, they will be affected.

 

 

After such an example, and looking clearly at the rules, I fail to see any other way for it to be handled. Again, if there is some actual rule that would modify this method, bring it forward. I would appreciate a page number to reference, so I may confirm it.

 

 

The one time in this post I will repeat myself, is that "Crew" are a fiction, where the rules are concerned. "Crew Shaken" and "Crew Stunned", while alluding to them, do so only in name. We can replace the names with "Damage Table Result 1" and "Damage Table Result 2", keeping the rules intact, and nothing would change. If it has unit type - vehicle, then it has no other component in the rules. Units embarking into transport do not suddenly become "crew" for the vehicle. They do not suddenly become vehicles themselves. They continue to exist as a separate, non-vehicle unit, that just happens to co-exist with the vehicle when it comes to measuring their position.

 

 

We can only go by what we are given. We mere mortals will never be able to divine "Rules-As-Intended", because we didn't write them. We weren't around when they were being written. Even the people who wrote them, may not have been the original author of the idea. They may not have understood the original intent themselves, or changed it in the process. We can only guess at the lauded "Intent", and guessing is a bad place to start when it comes to specific issues about rules.

 

 

And lastly, look on my works ye mighty, and despair: Clicky!

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Bobmakenzie - while on face value that quote may have relevance, on further inspection is relates only to shooting. I will attempt to detail different types of measuring, and when to use them.

 

I was actually agreeing with you that was how it worked. As for the shooting into transports *Shrug* I dont think I've ever seen it done nor do I think its particularly good or worthwhile but its still the sort of odd little things that can come up with these rules. My issue is that the flavour text is all about it using psychic to drain life. "As the doom of Malan'tai fed, its power grew. The life-energy it had absorbed lended it bountiful reservoirs of power on which to enhance its already fearsome psychic might." pg 58 (And to add to that the rule about its strength is called "Psychic Strength" It just seems odd to make such an exception. But then there are some other things like that in the game.

 

As well I think its worth noting. That by raw the Units would probably disembark from the tank if they fail a morale and then fall back.

 

"Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase, and may not voluntarily both embark and disembark in the same player turn." Pg 66. Which would imply that they can be forced to disembark (for example by a failed morale or as is specified just after by the vehicle being destroyed.)

[Ced]

In all honesty, it is quite saddening to see this dry and strict discussion go on, where it was clearly not the designers intent (but failure to avoid) to break the game.

 

It is fairly obvious, when applying the "common sense"-filter and disregarding the "to the letter"-rules reading, that the Doom is a) using an always-active, not-to-be-tested psychic power (which can be dealt with accordingly) which interacts with all viable targets for that attack. Thus, it cannot target units which are embarked - like other psykers - except indirectly with a shooting psychic powers, which interact with a vehicle`s hull normally.

 

Too bad it was worded this badly. Too bad. *sigh*

 

PS: I am not talking down on those people that invested a lot of research in this matter - Mortifis, before everyone else. It's just ... I don't know. Feels wrong.

[GodwynDi]

A corollary to this argument that has started bugging me, it has been asserted that a unit embarked on a transport is still a separate unit, that the two different types can not join together into a single unit. If so, then one could not pop a rhino with a meltagun then charge the disembarked unit in the subsequent assault phase, correct?

 

If one can, then either they are a single unit, with mixed unit types, which is possible although rare, which has been mostly disregarded, or vehicles work differently due to the abstraction. Same as with other new edition range changes. If the unit was not in a transport, and only 1 model was within 6", the whole unit is still hit, despite the oddness of this result. Such is 5th edition. Likewise, if the transport -is- part of the unit, it may be the only model in range, but that is still sufficient to target the unit as a whole.

 

If vehicles work differently due to abstraction, no matter how True people assert their reading of the rules is, it is unclear. The very fact this discussion exists, and has so many proponents per side shows that the rule is unclear.

 

Maybe in the next edition every penetrating hit will roll to wound against passengers, which would be awesome.

[boreas]

They are still separate units. It's a special rule under "transports vehicles" that allows shooting the vehicle and they asasulting a disembarked unit...

 

If they were a single unit, it would have some funky consequence (SM Librarian "gating" himselm, a joined unit of termis AND a Land Raider in which they are embarked!).

 

Phil

[GodwynDi]

Which is just more abstraction. A full 10 man squad of termis (11 with the librarian) probably well out-mass a rhino full of guardsmen and the librarian ;)

[Mortifis]

Ced - So you at least agree with how the rules work then? If so, then we don't need to post anymore ;)

 

As I said, we can't divine what anyone ever "intended". For all we know, they worded it this way to make sure it still worked against embarked troops. They could have easily made it a psychic power instead of an "ability". They changed Shadows in the Warp from being a Psyhic power to an ability, for exactly the same reason. I don't mean to be argumentative here, but my point still stands: whatever intentions we want to think of, it doesn't in any way, shape or form, affect how we play by the rules.

 

 

GodwynDi - that argument has already been soundly defeated by me and many others. Vehicles and Infantry are never a single unit. The rules state that you may only declare a charge against a unit that you shot at (if you fired that turn). The rules regarding Transport Vehicles is a specific exception to this, allowing you to charge a unit that you didn't shoot at if you destroyed its transport.

 

 

The reason that so many people have objected to this crystal clear rule is not as you believe it is. The very fact that people are arguing doesn't prove that anything is unclear. It only proves that people are unwilling to accept it, or unwilling to face it. Emotional outbursts and knee-jerk responses serve no purpose. I don't ever let my opponents cheat me or break the rules just because they throw a tantrum. By the same token, I make certain I'm not deliberately twisting things out of context.

 

 

If people want to paint me as a big, angry, Rules-Lawyering Demon, so be it. But my mission here has been to educate, not to ridicule. If I have helped even one person understand the rules better, and not be bullied by the angry horde of nay-sayers, so much the better.

[Cale]

67 do not allow you to measure range to any particular embarked models. While the unit has a position on the table which is co-extant with its transport, none of the models are on the table,

 

And that is why the Dooms power does not work on units in transports. Rules and counter rules.

 

I have seen this going around and around through different forums, and that is all it does. Till GW pipes up with a clear answer its going to be a case of checking before the game.

 

Yeah, this is wrong. Spirit Leech doesn't have to measure to any particular models--it just has to measure to the unit. That's why the rule on page 66 is sufficient to allow it to affect embarked units.

 

Shooting, on the other hand, has to measure to a particular model, not to the unit. That's why you can't shoot embarked units.

 

 

Not actually true, Bob. To check range for shooting, you must measure to a model in the target unit. You're not measuring range to the unit when shooting at it, you're measuring range to a particular model in the unit.

 

That being said, Spirit Leech obviously affects embarked units. There is no cogent argument to the contrary. The fact that these threads keep going despite the obviousness of the rules engenders in me despair for humanity.

 

I suggest you read the rule again.

 

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." pg66

 

"When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit." pg 17.

 

In this case you are measuring a range involving the target unit that doesnt require los and would then connect to rule on pg66. The Tank for all intents and purposes is the models in the unit for ranges essentially.

 

Measuring range to a particular model isn't measuring range involving a unit--it's measuring range involving a model. Unit =/= model. The rules on page 66 do not allow you to measure range to a particular embarked model, and this is why you can't shoot an embarked unit, even with weapons which ignore LOS.

 

No cogent arguement by raw for stopping spirit leech. Its more of a RAI arguement in that it really doesnt make a whole lot of sense for it to be such a strange exception to all over common rules. I think thats why this arguement will never go anywhere praticularly helpful.

 

I agree.

[DinoDoc]

The very fact that this thread has gone on so long should be arguement enough that the unit needs a FAQ from GW.