Command squad

[Warpcaller]

So at my last visit to my local GW i grabed a command sqaud box and i was wondering how exactly am i gonna equip these guys. I was thinking about 2/2 plasma/meltaguns in a transport for rapid heavy infantry/tank/monsterous creature hunting with a little variability,any thoughts on this? Next thing is the transport,what do you prefer? Rhino (2 of the guys can shoot from it even without disembarking) or Razorback (adds some firepower of its own).I allso have a lot of spare bits laying around so i'll probably build CC oriented command squad but those tend to get points expensive pretty fast...Any and all feedback welcome

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I actually like the though of a half and half squad shooting out of a rhino, Blowing up a good transport and then proceeding to mince the former occupants. I'd say Captain: RB, SS, Artificer+Command squad with champion, 2xPG, 1xMG, PF. In a rhino that comes to a cool 375, not bad compared to other options, but consider sternguard and vanguard vets also.

[Xeonic]

CC Command squad is easy. Fist, company champ, and banner. Bam, on the charge you have 4 PW attacks at iniative, 12 normal attacks, 3 fist strikes, feel no pain, +1 to combat resolution, and rerolls on all morale and pinning tests within 12". It's not a deathstar super killmachine terminator squad, but it does the job in smaller games, and can handle almost anything in CC. I'd personally give the fist to the standard bearer and use 2 BP+CCW bodies as ablative wounds for teh fist and champ. Champ is a must take because he's a steal for the price of a power weapon. The banner will keep your guys in the fight and hopefully keep them from losing(and it looks cool). The fist allows the unit to tackle tougher targets and helps them to win combat. This unit is best used vs targets with large quantities of low strength non armor ignoring attacks.

 

At range, the argueable best loadout is 4x plasma guns. With FnP for your overheat saves it's hard to argue with this. You could also give them meltaguns, but FnP really benefits plasmagunners. To hybrid them, throw in a fist so they could tackle heavier stuff or vehicles in CC(but I personally reccomend keeping a ranged squad out of CC if possible). I use mine in a razor, but if you're running a ranged squad, a rhino is a good choice since they can fire from the hatch.

 

One thing to remember is that the champ and apoth are upgrade characters and thus cannot be upgraded, whereas the standard is a piece of wargear so the standard bearer can be upgraded.

[Koremu]

I find putting at least one Storm Shield into the mix is a must - it greatly increases the units survival against AT weaponry (or rending).

 

Beyond that, tool the Command Squad up to support the Captain. You can essentially treat the unit as if it were a full 10 man Squad, but the Captain counts as five men on his own.

 

I almost always use a Razorback.

[Xeonic]

I agree, the Storm shield is a good idea, the command squad's natural weakness is high ST or armor ignoring attacks, which a storm shield or two can greatly aid in neutralizing that weakness.

 

You do however, want to refrain from overtooling your squad, yes you can make an ultra uber killmachine of death, but the cost can go up exponentially, and at some point it becomes advantageous to consider just taking something more killy such as Terminators, or honor guard, or maybe even vanguard.

 

EDIT: I also agree on the razorback, the transport size is perfect for command squad+captain, and for a fistful of points over a rhino you get TL heavy bolters with some nicer upgrade options.

[Giga]

I run my command squad like this;

 

3 x plasmagun

1 x powerfist

razorback

 

Comes out at 225 pts, and is a nice little universal unit that can deal with light vehicles, heavy infantry, monstrous creatures, and can also assault something if needed. Combined with null zone, they provide one of the easiest ways to deal with assault terminators and the like.

[Koremu]

I tool them for mission specific work. It's the greatest thing about the Command Squad IMO. I have a huge array of plastic "veteran" models that I can use as either Sergeants or Veterans to order, and I'm forever thinking up new Veteran load-outs I need.

 

Tri-Plas + Fist is a decent load-out, but it suffers from not having a vanilla guy to throw away. That's always the problem in tri-anything Command Squads. What you gain in overall firepower you trade for risk.

 

Tri-Flamer is pretty funny, in the right situation.

 

Command Squads suitable for use with each of the special characters is an interesting problem. Khan plus a few power weapons is funny (with or without bikes). Lysander with FNP is just sick and wrong <_<

[Hemphill777]

One thing to remember is that the champ and apoth are upgrade characters and thus cannot be upgraded, whereas the standard is a piece of wargear so the standard bearer can be upgraded.

 

While I agree that neither the Company Champion nor the Apothecary can be upgraded, I would argue that it is not because they are Upgrade Characters, as almost all Upgrade Characters (such as a space marine sergeant) may be upgraded and in fact have a greater selection of upgrades than their lesser brethren. For reference, I cite page 47 of the 5th ed. rulebook, concerning Upgrade Characters. The reason that the Company Champion and the Apothecary cannot be upgraded is rooted in the upgrade options presented in the Command Squad 5th ed. SM Codex, which states that any VETERAN may take certain upgrades. However, the codex also lists the Company Champion and Apothecary separately from the "veterans." As such, the veteran upgrades are not available to either upgrade character, but not inherently due to their status as upgrade characters.

 

In regard to the original topic, I have three command squads (three different armies) and each is equipped in generally the same way, with a good mixture of high powered ballistic weapons and power-weapons, with a thunder-hammer or power-fist thrown in there for good measure. Always take a Company Standard.

[Xeonic]

They're upgrade characters in the exact same way Telion or a Sergeant is, they have their own statlines and wargear, they're not "Veterans", and they can only replace gear if specified in their entry(IE a sergeant).

 

That is to say Telion is an upgrade character with his own statline and wargear, he's not offered the same options as the sergeant he replaces.

The company champion is an upgrade character with his own statline and wargear, he's not offered the same options as the veteran he replaces.

The company standard is an upgrade for one Veteran. It doesn't replace anything and doesn't change the model's statline directly.

The apothecary interestingly is listed seperately even though he's got the same statline as a veteran, but since he has a seperate(though identical) statline, he's not a veteran and cannot be upgraded.

 

The page you cited says they "may" have enhanced characteristics or a wider selection of weapon and wargear options. Not that they always do. It even says below they "tend to" have more options, which in my regional dialect of English is not an absolute.

 

I'm going to stipulate that if Telion is an upgrade character(and since he's clearly a character, clearly an upgrade, and not an independant character, I'd say so), who replaces an upgrade character(who has a wide variety of weapon and wargear options and an improved statline over a basic scout), then the apothecary and champion also qualify despite their inability to be upgraded.

 

Of course none of this really matters because their upgrade character status doesn't do anything special for them, they're simply treated as another model in the unit.

[Bannus]

I've been toying with a lot of different ideas for a Command Squad - and finding the right "balance" for them is difficult.

 

If you tool them up a lot, you make them a high priority target that is expensive to lose.

 

Don't tool them up at all and you are limiting a lot of potential.

 

What to do?

 

Here is my latest idea (I haven't committed to building it, BTW):

 

Apothecary w/bolter and bolt pistol

 

Company Champion

 

Standard Bearer w/powerfist or thunder hammer and bolter

 

2x Veterans w/flamers and bolters

 

The Champ and Standard Bearer can handle most close combat situations.

 

The two flamers can thin the ranks before engaging in hand-to-hand and don't cost too much to use as ablative wounds without wasting their "upgrade" potential. At 180-185 points, it isn't so expensive to be a target, but still has good potential up close in their primary roles: counter-assault/bodyguard. Until they do, they can fire w/bolters (I thought about giving them stormbolters as they are cheap too - but might make them too much of a fire-magnet) at range.

[Meatman]

On bikes, 4 plasma guns, relentless, feel no pain. Very mobile and durable plasma delivery unit :cuss

[thade]

Lysander with FNP is just sick and wrong :(

I lol'd. =)

 

I shy away from Command Squads for the very reason Koremu puts out as their risk: you don't have a lot of vanilla models to throw away if they take wounds. Personally I might gear them out with all plasma and stick them in a ruin with other tac squads, and enjoy the FNP protecting them from Gets Hot. To be honest though I haven't given them a fair try yet.

[ShinyRhino]

Has anyone stacked up the numbers when comparing a Captain with CC-oriented command squad to a Chapter Master (assume exact same gear-out as the Captain) with five-man Honour Guard?

 

Off the top of my head, I'd wonder if the loss of Feel No Pain is worth the value of the additional power weapons and the Orbital Bombardment (from the Master).

[thade]

Both melee squads concern me as neither can take very many bodies to soak wounds and neither unit can handle power weapons or worse well (FNP or the 2+ save doesn't add up); you can give a storm shield to the command squad, I suppose.

 

Again, I wonder if my fears are unfounded...as an honor guard or a command squad running heavy with melee might kill so much on the charge that it could still be worth it.

[Mycroft Holmes]

Both melee squads concern me as neither can take very many bodies to soak wounds and neither unit can handle power weapons or worse well (FNP or the 2+ save doesn't add up); you can give a storm shield to the command squad, I suppose.

 

Again, I wonder if my fears are unfounded...as an honor guard or a command squad running heavy with melee might kill so much on the charge that it could still be worth it.

 

 

These reasons are why I've never liked the idea of a CC based command squad. Every weapon, upgrade and invul save added to the squad makes it more painful to lose and far too expensive for what it actually does. It's the same issue I have with Vangaurd, but at least with Vangaurd you can take them basic at ~20pts a piece to get 4 attacks on the charge and plenty of bodies to lose.

 

A shooty command squad is a good idea; BUT it's not going to have enough shooting on it's own to bring things down with out getting into assault range itself.

[Bannus]

...you can give a storm shield to the command squad, I suppose.

This should only be necessary if you plan to run your Command Squad independently of the Captain. Because most opponents will focus their power weapons on the IC to bring him down more quickly.

[IronDuke]

Not really got a lot to add to this as I am still waiting to play my first proper game, I just wish you could give the command squad hellfire rounds :)

[Loyalist]

My Red Hunters close combat Command Squad seems to conform to many of the posted squad compositions. It has a company champion, a banner bearer with lightning claw, and 2 'ablative' figures with storm bolters and chainswords, though I might give one of them a power weapon. The Captain has a storm bolter and relic blade. The ranged weapon version replaces the champion, banner bearer and one ablative figure with 3 plasma gunners, and the Captain's relic balde is downgraded to a power sword.

 

My Deathwatch command squad doesn't have a company champion because it isn't a Codex chapter and draws its members temporarily from many SM chapters. (For the same reason there's no chapter master in my DW army.) For CC it has a banner bearer with power fist, a vet with power sword, vet with flamer, and 'ablative' vet with bolt pistol and CCW. The Captain has a combi-melta and relic blade.

 

The Red Hunter and Deathwatch command squads have Razorback transports, but sometimes the DW command squad arrives in a drop pod with sternguard veteran squads.

[Koremu]

...you can give a storm shield to the command squad, I suppose.

This should only be necessary if you plan to run your Command Squad independently of the Captain. Because most opponents will focus their power weapons on the IC to bring him down more quickly.

Not necessarily true. There's not a lot of point focusing PWs on an IC with a 4++ or 3++ Save. Fists yes, PWs no.

 

Personally I always take at least one Storm Shield because sooner or later you are going to take some incoming fire, and you don't want to risk the IC catching a Krak missile. Add in a Storm Shield and you have a fair chance to stop it.

 

Also, Rending. I stopped an old-codex Genestealer brood in their tracks (no casualties taken at all) thanks to wound allocation putting 2 Rends on the one Storm Shield guy. Then the RB Captain ripped the brood a new one.

 

In addition. if you are the one doing the Assault, you can frequently manage to lock the Power Fist model in the target squad in CC with the Veterans. Having a Storm Shield helps to keep him upright.

 

I'll agree it's not as useful as before they redacted them being a Retinue (a decision which I still think is insanely stupid - I never ever have my Captain leave the Command Squad, it's the most retarded concept ever), but the Storm Shield is still very handy.

[Bannus]

Not necessarily true. There's not a lot of point focusing PWs on an IC with a 4++ or 3++ Save. Fists yes, PWs no.

I should have clarified - I meant "power weapons" in reference to anything that ignores an armor save (power weapons, power fists, crozius arcanums, thunder hammers, lightning claws....) - power fists being the most common type encountered on the tabletop.

[Koremu]

But my point still stands - that there little point aiming ordinary (non Instant Death) PWs at the Captain with his 4++ or 3++ Save (not to mention WS6).

 

You're better off throwing those S4 Power Weapons into the Command Squad, negating armour (and hence FNP) IMO. Hence, the SS becomes useful.

[ShinyRhino]

I'll agree it's not as useful as before they redacted them being a Retinue (a decision which I still think is insanely stupid - I never ever have my Captain leave the Command Squad, it's the most retarded concept ever), but the Storm Shield is still very handy.

 

Having your captain leave his Command Squad behind is called "Uriel Ventris Syndrome." :cuss

[Koremu]

I'll agree it's not as useful as before they redacted them being a Retinue (a decision which I still think is insanely stupid - I never ever have my Captain leave the Command Squad, it's the most retarded concept ever), but the Storm Shield is still very handy.

 

Having your captain leave his Command Squad behind is called "Uriel Ventris Syndrome." :lol:

I think it's infectious - he caught it off Idaeus :P

[minigun762]

How important is adding a Power Fist really?

 

It seems like an odd question considering how awesome they are but assuming your Captain has the standard Relic Blade, you're already wounding most things on 2's and insta-killing T3 models. True you lose out on pure anti-MC or the ability to insta-kill Nobz/Warriors and that is reason enough I suppose.

 

I guess I'm just thinking of them as a bully squad, picking on basic infantry and the like. I'd rather throw a 10 man Tac squad with a Power Fist at an incoming MC just because it has more bodies to absorb.

[Bannus]

How important is adding a Power Fist really?

 

It seems like an odd question considering how awesome they are but assuming your Captain has the standard Relic Blade, you're already wounding most things on 2's and insta-killing T3 models. True you lose out on pure anti-MC or the ability to insta-kill Nobz/Warriors and that is reason enough I suppose.

 

I guess I'm just thinking of them as a bully squad, picking on basic infantry and the like. I'd rather throw a 10 man Tac squad with a Power Fist at an incoming MC just because it has more bodies to absorb.

An interseting idea. I think the powerfist is mostly for security. If it doesn't include one, the high-priced Command Squad could become an MC magnet - and won't be able to deal with the threat.

 

I wonder how often it really does make the difference as opposed to a more cost-effective weapon?