utilizing terminators

[Demoulius]

hello brothers,

 

ive tried a game with terminators yesterday trying to make these bulky heroes of my chapter work... aside from the fact that i had no good targets for them they were nigh useless. the only anti tank my opponent had scattered on top of their head TWICE and the last 2 got killed by some AP 2 weapons (if they would have survived they would have gotten charged by kill kans so uh...ya, they would have died anyway)

 

are there any particular tricks that are needed to get these to work? im talking about "normal" terminators here and i only had 5 of them (can only make the unit 5 man anyway...blood angels and all) i was walking them towards a target but my assault squad got to it first and kicked their teeth in :P

 

any ideas?

[Possessed Marine]

Walking them up? let me introduce you to your new best friend, the land raider. roll up on your adversaries in a sweet @$$ ride and be able to disembark, shoot & assault all in the same turn, and the heavy armor means that even with some anti-armor, they'll still be hard pressed to take it out, and even if they do, your terminators may still survive the blast

 

EDIT: grammar

[Koremu]

Personally I use Tactical Terminators by either;

 

1) Teleporting them into proximity of a Tactical Squad with a Teleport Homer. This allows me to tempt my opponent into threatening one of my Objectives before springing the Termis on them.

 

or;

 

2) Using them as a denial unit. Sit them in some cover, with good lanes of fire and make them the bulwark unit that anchors your line. This works best if you're operating with a Refused Flank - the Terminators end up holding near centre.

 

 

Assault Cannon are good in both roles. Heavy Flamers in #1, Cyclones in #2.

[Solid Zaku]

I agree with Koremu. Despite the horror stories you hear all the time about Termies failing their rather unfluffy saves, you'd actually be surprised how hard it is to dislodge Terminators that don't want to move. Just keep them near some good terrain, and have them blast the everliving crap out of anything that gets in their LOS, even if it's not all that tactically important. Just the 'argh, there's Terminators over there' factor is enough to discourage most opponents.

[Korraz]

I'd use them with Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers, in combination with scoutbikers. I consider scoutbikers awesome by themselfes, but ensuring that Terminators shock in the exact position to blow and burn the hell outta the enemy makes them even better!

[Captain Hajime]

Apoc has flank march which I have used many times with good effect!

[glayvin34]

Land Raiders are definitely great for Terminators. I drove mine into a trio of dreadnoughts and took two out with powerfists and one with the multi-melta on the LR, losing only 1 termie in the process.

 

The other thing about a LR full of termies is that your opponent will know it costs 500+ points, and it will force him to make certain choices, because the closer the LR gets, the more weapons it brings to bear and the sooner the terminators will jump out with their powerfists. You can guarantee on turn 1 that your opponent will do something about the LR, probably fail, and you know he'll probably try again next turn. Then he will ignore your advancing rhinos and assault squads and your firing Devastators or Preds or whatever else you've got.

 

The other use of termies is the deepstrike, which is also good if you've got more than 5 or 6 of them, and again your opponent can't really ignore them or decide to deal with them later. As previously mentioned, the tactical squad in a rhino is a good one for deepstriking termies, rhinos are pretty quick and often ignored since they don't look very menacing, and just hold a little tactical squad. :) But having the whole tactical squad pile out of the rhino and rapid fire along with a squad of termies will seriously put the hurt on any infantry. Be careful you don't strand them though, unless you want to, like Zaku mentioned.

 

And finally, with only 5 models in the unit, sometimes you roll like crap and all your termies die. I had an IG commander take out a whole squad of 5 because I just couldn't roll well enough.

[Demoulius]

hmm so basicly ive got 3 options.

 

1) deepstrike them, do as much damage to my opponent as possible and hope they survive to do more damage.

2) keep them back near an objective and use them as a fear factor to intimidate your opponent with.

3) put them in a land raider and basicly use them as a firemagnet, try to do as much damage as possible; akin to #1.

 

since i play 1500 pts games the raider wont be an option (since i dont have one its also somewhat out of the question :D) but #1 and #2 both sound like good ideas.

 

perhaps i used them in the wrong way. we were playing kill points so keeping them back wasent so much of an option (opponent was an ork also so he would have come forward anyway) i considered deep striking but feared they would arrive to soon or too late. perhaps a gamble would have paid off, most of the ork units werent in cover for most of the game (dident have majority in cover anyway) and the 24 inch ranged weapons help alot as well :)

[Grey Mage]

hello brothers,

 

ive tried a game with terminators yesterday trying to make these bulky heroes of my chapter work... aside from the fact that i had no good targets for them they were nigh useless. the only anti tank my opponent had scattered on top of their head TWICE and the last 2 got killed by some AP 2 weapons (if they would have survived they would have gotten charged by kill kans so uh...ya, they would have died anyway)

 

are there any particular tricks that are needed to get these to work? im talking about "normal" terminators here and i only had 5 of them (can only make the unit 5 man anyway...blood angels and all) i was walking them towards a target but my assault squad got to it first and kicked their teeth in :D

 

any ideas?

Stop expecting miracles, and use them properly.

 

Seriously, a 2+/5++ is tough, but its still only five models- use them like you would a 250pt tactical squad- hit enemy infantry with them, a bit of antitank here and there, and pound something in assault when you get there. Screen them from fire they cant handle, and do your best to stun or destroy enemy AP 2 weaponry.

 

40k is not herohammer, you need to support your units properly or of course they will die.

[Asrech]

How you use a unit always depends on how the rest of the army looks and functions. If you run a long distance stationary list I'd give them a cyclone launcher, or assault cannon and use them as a moving fire-platform, 2/4 high str shots per turn can do quite a bit.

If you run a semi-mobile list, they can still keep up as above since they can move and fire, esp if they walk up together with a dreadnought. They can then provide support if cc comes and he draws some of the heavier fire from them. But if you run a very high-speed list ( all meq, bikes, pods etc ) I'd give them a HF or assault cannon and DP them.

 

Just like grey mage said, dont expect them to perform like the living deathgods they are in the fluff, on the table they're hard and heavy, but they still go down just like everything else, if facing plasma they do it real fast.

 

Cheers!

[Br.Pat]

You can alternatively use them as a mobile firebase. They move 6" and with an Assault 2, 24" Stormbolter a squad of 7 can let out 14 shots on the move. Their 2+ save shrugs off small arms fire and they have a 5+ Inv. However you should screen them with some other infantry or cover to get a 4+ cover save. Ofcourse the enemy will get this save also, but 80% in any situation the enemy always seems to be in acover and have a 4+ cover save anyway.

 

Frankly I don't think they're really suited in assaults. They can only kill MEQs semi-effectively, and thats if those MEQs aren't kitted out with power weapons. Leave fighting nasties to Assault Terminators. I don't quite see the point of putting them in a Land Raider. Once you get them out they fire just as good as they do on the move and what they can kill effectively by assaulting can usually be dispatched fairly easily by normal Marines with perhaps a seagent with a power sword.

[DevianID]

Are you interested in BA termies only or just general termie advice?

 

For BA termies, I have to say I love them to death. Assuming you use the 2 shot cyclone missile launcher, as ruled by GW tournies and INAT faq, then a 220 point termie squad is perhaps the most efficient buy blood angels get, as you get 2 s8 mobile shots, 4 powerfists and a pweapon, and a death company. My larger blood angel armies always ran 2 squads of them with cyclones.

 

First, they add powerfists to counter high toughness critters or high save units or multiwound units like nob bikers. Second, the 48 inch 2 shot cyclone is very effective at putting shots on transports, especially hard to reach eldar transports that cap the s of a shot at 8 anyway. Third, if your playing agro 5 man pfist RAS rhino squads, the termies act as a counter assault unit following behind, to catch units that slip your grasp.

 

As for in game tactics, well I always keep them at max coherency. While I hate the fact that you can spread out squads so much (i think coherency should be 1 inch max) there is no denying that spread out termie squads are very resiliant as even large blast weapons can only hit 2 models on a direct hit. (imagine the frustration for an opponent who runs vindicators; he can only expect to kill 1 termie per shot after the wound roll and invuln save!) Next, and it probably goes without saying, make the powerweapon model the first to die. Finally, use termies as a screen for your other ground units. 3 MM attack bikes behind spread out behind termies enjoy a 4+ cover save, however if they are shooting at vehicles or monstrous creatures through the 2 inch gap between terminators the enemy will recieve no cover save from the interviening termies.

[Justicar Valius]

since i play 1500 pts games the raider wont be an option

What world do you live on? I have 2 LRC in my 1500 point army.

 

Realistically hold them in reserve for a deepstrike and do what others say.

Or stick them in a Land raider crusader.

Or give them chainfists... :)

[Venerable Jazzman]

Hi Dem,

 

I've gone from never using them in a BA army to picking up two Black Reach boxes and thinking what the hell am I going to do with these guys? Now I love them. :)

2x5 with assault cannons, use them aggressively, they will shoot stuff your oppo doesn't want shot, and then pound them into the dirt with power fists. All while watching shots ping off their 2+ save.

 

This afternoon, in the course of about three hours, my Termis have destroyed -

2 Hive Tyrants

about 30 Stealers

lots of Nid things

3 Falcons (in two turns, awesomesauce :) )

lots of Coneheads

an Avatar

and a big Trigon thingy.

 

I think they had about 40% losses overall - I just find that they are very hard to put down, they keep shooting, and when they get to charge into combat most things end up as pastrami

[Demoulius]

thanks for the advice guys :) yea i know i messed up with the powerweapon, that was my bad, the power weapon just looks so cool ;)

 

my army itself is centrered around mounted tac squads, a ssault squad and a jump packing death company so im not sure if they fit in, i just wanted to give them a try :huh: the scenario was also kill points and my opponents only wielded 20 man ork squads, not something you want to get into combat with...the sheer number of attacks would probably mean a few owuld die in the first round alone :D (though granted none of his units survived unscathed and my assault squad also attacked them, but then again they got to strike before the orks do....termies dont have that option...)

 

i guess il give them another try and try to implement the advice you guys gave me, thanks a bunch :)

[DV8]

If you don't play Fantasy, you may or may not understand some of the things outlined below, but I'll try and be as concise and clear as I can be.

 

Nevermind the fancy magic, the powerful characters/items/combinations, or the uber-armies, Fantasy is won with two things: movement, and combat resolution (CR). The ability to maneouver your units is directly related to being able to bring units to bear that will generate CR to win combat, or provide a threat where the potential CR will guarantee the enemy will never win.

 

There are two ways a unit in Fantasy generates CR. Static CR, from things such as ranks, banners, outnumbering, or from magic items (for example, a standard normally generates 1 CR, but a War Banner, which as a magic property generates a bonus +1 CR, would generate 2 CR). Static CR is the CR a unit generates before it even enters the fray, and before it even lands a blow. A ranked up unit of 20 infantry (5 wide, 4 deep) with full command (champion, musician, standard) generates 4 CR (+3 for 3 extra ranks past the third, +1 for the banner) with an additional 1 CR (for 5 total) if it outnumbers the foe.

 

The other way, is from Combat CR, that is, killing. Each successful kill you make (model removed from the table) generates 1 CR. Plain and simple.

 

That means that even an uber-powerful character (like a kitted Chaos Lord on a horse) who costs say in the area of 500-600 points, will be hard-pressed to beat a cheap ranked unit of 20 spearmen who may only cost 120 points. That is because straight off the bat, the spearmen have 3 ranks, a banner, and outnumber, where the Chaos Lord has nothing (assuming he charges the front). That means the Lord must kill at least 5 models to even break even, and which is why rock-paper-scissors simply doesn't work in Fantasy. It's all about synergy and having units that work in tandem to over-come their foes.

 

Units that generate lots of Static CR, generally can't generate enough Combat CR to win every combat on their own. They rely on generating Static CR and supplementing with Combat CR to at least break even, and relying on high leadership to hold the enemy in place, while a unit that CAN generate Combat CR can run in, butcher the enemy unit, and swing the tide in your favor. The overall CR of any given combat is the Static CR + Combat CR that every unit involved in that combat generates, totalled together. Whoever has the highest, wins.

 

So in the example of the Chaos Lord vs Spearmen, lets say suddenly we throw in a ranked unit of 20 Marauders into the fray, who combo-charge with the Lord into the front. Well suddenly we have 2 units with 3 ranks, both have banners. Both automatically generate 4 CR, but because the Lord + Marauders now outnumber the Spearmen, they get an additional CR for outnumbering. This means before blows are even struck, the Chaos is winning by 1 (5 CR to 4 CR). Now the Lord can work his magic, and with some combat help from the Marauders, butcher the Spearmen.

 

There are fancy tricks with flank and rear charges, negating ranks, etc. But the basic principle is this: because you need to generate CR to win combat, you need two things: a hammer, and an anvil. The anvil generates your Static CR, and is used to negate whatever Static CR your opponent has, or at least have enough CR to hold the enemy unit in place for your hammer unit (which generates Combat CR) to crush said enemy unit.

 

The reasoning behind this is simple. Anvil units rarely land enough blows or make enough kills to generate any real Combat CR, and Hammer units will kill things well, generating Combat CR, but are simply too expensive, too unwieldy, or too inefficient to make big enough to have any real Static CR. A good example is cavalry. There's no sense taking big blocks of 20 Knights so you can get a fully ranked unit of Knights 5 wide, 4 deep. Why? Becuase the rear 2-3 ranks are wasted, and will never see combat. The unit becomes too unwieldy to maneouver, and too costly to field effectively without crippling your army. Knights work better in smaller lines of 5 or 6 models, generating Combat CR in tandem with ranked infantry for Static CR to swing the tide of battle.

 

The same principle(s) can be applied to 40k, if only in concept. 40k is much more fluid than Fantasy, and a unit's role can change drastically from turn to turn, where some units are better against others as either Anvils or Hammers. Point in case: 5 Terminators would be a Hammer versus a Tank, but would be an Anvil versus a unit of 30 Fearless Hormagaunts. Sure the Terminators might eventually kill the Hormagaunts, but would they survive long enough? They simply can't kill enough alone, so they use their resilience to weather the initial storm, and then a support unit (which is better suited to being a Hammer versus 30 Hormagaunts) sweeps in to butcher the Tyranids (say a unit of 10 Assault Marines, who would otherwise bounce off a Tank).

 

The concept is simple: you need a balance of Hammer and Anvil units in your army for it to work synergistically. You can't take all Hammer units, and you can't take all Anvil units. You need a balance, and the two need to work together, to bring your opponent down. So really you're asking a loaded question.

 

How do you utilize Terminators (better)?

 

Well for one thing build a better army, and play that army better. Not to be insulting, but chances are you don't have enough support units to back the Terminators up, and/or you don't know how to maneouver and bring those support units up in game to support said Terminators. That or conversely your Terminators are unable to support the rest of your army, and/or you don't know how to maneouver them in game to support your army.

 

 

DV8

[Possessed Marine]

if they're using big units of orks, then stand back a little bit, and use your higher BS and stormbolter range, orks hate being in a firefight, also use the cyclone launcher with frag, it'll scythe through the ork's light armor