Are GH better then CSMs?

[minigun762]

So when the SW codex came out, a few Chaos players (myself included) were upset because it seemed to be a case of "whatever you can do, I can do better" when comparing Grey Hunters to Chaos Marines.

 

Now that some time has passed and the codex has been out for awhile, I thought I would ask the Wolves what they thought about it (or if it even crossed their minds).

Note: My intention is a comparision between GH and CSM, but if you feel that including Cult Troops or Blood Claws in the discussion is appropriate, by all means.

[Grey Mage]

Straight GHs to CSMs? Well, Id say its about even, and heres why:

 

GHs:

Acute Senses, ATSKNF, Counter Attack.

Ld 8!

Discount on weapon options, but requires a 10 man squad.

Standards, secondairy options.

Less options on the transport, but more transport options.

Scoring.

Unit 5-10.

 

CSMs:

Icons *I feel that the ability to be I 5 is incredibly powerful, and underrated*

Aspiring Champions give LD 10 in squad, and veteran style attacks on the SCCW.

Better rhino.

Scoring.

Unit 5-20.

Heavy Weapon option.

 

CSMs have more flexability in some ways, such as unit size and HW options... and the powerful- though sometimes expensive -icons. ATSKNF vs Higher Ld is a standard chaos/loyalist issue, but I feel it more relevant here with SWs lower than average LD for a marine- and the simple fact that their most powerful rule requires a LD test to be used. Acute senses is rarely something that comes up, but it is handy.

 

I would give the edge to GHs, not by a whole lot but its there. Cult troops I dont feel to be applicable to the conversation simply because of the vast difference in points per model, but I do note that they are all strong choices, and scoring... wich is good. WG I likewise feel are less of an honest comparison, as they are not available in the same slot, and the general consensus seems to be that its a tough call for many between the idea of a WG or a second special weapon for a 10 man squad.

 

And I think this is a reflection of the edition that CSMs were put out in. When Chaos is redone, Im pretty sure theyll be the ones with the slight edge as a unit entry, balanced by the simple fact you wont be able to take all the options at once.

[Natanael]

I think that as an individual, a single GH against a single CSM, the GH is better. Counter-attack does it for me.

 

As a squad, however, it is very different. The ability for CSM to take icons, and to have a champion the the squad together with two special weapons is great, and it makes them very comtomizable (sp?). However the GHs are also very nice with all the stuff they can take (MotW, WS, PP).

 

Right now, I feel that they are quite equally matched. Taking the WGs into account tough, I'd say GHs are a bit better.

 

+++EDIT+++

 

Grey Mage beat me to it. Whatever he said :)

[MagneticFreak]

I'd say GH and better than CSM for many reasons: counter attack, ASKNF and acute senses. We can have more close combat goodies as well.

 

Cult troops however...I think these still hold the upper hand. Plague Marines are very very good but are so expensive that perhaps it balances things up.

 

I was also both upset and happy to see how GH were designed. I thought that CSM deserved some additionnal twist to make them competitive. But there still better than the Vanilla ones!

[Legatus]

Are GH better then CSMs?

Short answer: Yes.

 

Long answer: Yeeeeeees.

 

Grey Hunters are superior because of ATSKNF, Counter-attack.

 

CSM might get a heavy weapon, but Space Wolves squads can get a special CCW instead, which is nice for a "3 attacks first round per model" unit. Chaos Marines can get icons, which are nice, but Grey Hunters can get a drop pod, which is beter.

 

I wonder why I keep reading that Grey Hunters are limited to LD8. I have never had an LD 8 Grey Hunters squad with the previous Codex Space Wolves and I will not be having any with the current Codex.

[stinkenheim]

we weren't bringing WG into ti as that isnt a fair comparison. WG are elites, and as such are not prt of the GH makeup unless you specifically want them to be.

 

What is being done here is a straight out which is better, GH or CSM as the unit appears in the relevant books.

 

To me GH will normally have the edge pt for pt but with the right standards and upgrades the CSM will push them alot harder than anything else in the game and in certain situations trump them.

but hey, im a wolf, i have to say GH are the better choice dont i.

[SamaNagol]

No. And Plague Marines are better also.

[Legatus]

we weren't bringing WG into ti as that isnt a fair comparison. WG are elites, and as such are not prt of the GH makeup unless you specifically want them to be.

That is like saying we are not going to figure in Chaos Champions because they are an optional upgrade. Yes, with the Space Wolves army list make up you will have to include a squad of Wolf Guard to get squad leaders for your squads, but I can hardly imagine a situation where you wouldn't want to do that.

 

Oh yeah, CSM Champion with powerfist: 55 points, WG leader with powerfist: 38 points. That nicely frees up the points for an extra power weapon for one of the Grey Hunters. Imagine the CSM squad getting one power weapon for free.

[MagneticFreak]

Further, I'd like to add that most Chaos players (well, those I know), are more inclined to play Cult marines than Chaos space marines, mainly because of the ''Package deal'' they represent. Thus, most of the time, their troop choices are better than ours.

[SamaNagol]

10 man CSM squads in Rhinos with 2 melta and a champ with fist/PW with icon of re-rollable Ld is a decent choice though.

[minigun762]

10 man CSM squads in Rhinos with 2 melta and a champ with fist/PW with icon of re-rollable Ld is a decent choice though.

 

Its the foundation of all of my lists. :P

[Spacefrisian]

The question is about a Csm vs GH not with any wargear added.

 

A Greyhunter is better points wise, both are 15 points but the added rules of the Greyhunter makes him better.

[Karack Blackstone]

I see Melta and Krak are going to be highly useful.

 

To the thread, I figure GH's may come out in the lead overall, if only slightly. Rerollable LD and all the other bells and whistles are just what I figure, a possible points sink depending. However, mechanized I would expect it's closer considering everything, though still GH's.

[SamaNagol]

The question is about a Csm vs GH not with any wargear added.

 

A Greyhunter is better points wise, both are 15 points but the added rules of the Greyhunter makes him better.

 

That's a redundant and obsolete question.

[minigun762]

The question is about a Csm vs GH not with any wargear added.

 

A Greyhunter is better points wise, both are 15 points but the added rules of the Greyhunter makes him better.

 

I see no problem discussing the different variations that would be used, including adding the Wolf Guards(?) as Champion equivalents as well as Icons.

 

Its most accurate when the comparison is made between the standard competitive loadout(s) in my mind.

[Grey Mage]

Well, in that case heres my three standard competitive loadouts:

 

10 GHs- 2xPR, PF, Rhino 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, Rhino- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Flamer, PF, Rhino- 210pts.

 

No WG- I find them a luxury, and occaisionally quite awkward to fit into a list.

 

Comparing that to similar chaos units:

 

10 CSMs- 2x PG, AC w/PF, Rhino- 255pts.

10 CSMs- 2x MG, AC w/PW, Rhino- 235pts.

10 CSMs- 2x Flamer, AC w/PF, Rhino- 235pts.

 

The difference is between 25 and 35pts per squad, wich CSMs being more expensive in each case. CSMs have a higher leadership, an extra SCCW attack, GHs in turn get counter attack, acute senses, and a discount in price.

 

Now, lets bring things a little closer- lets say each of those GH squads had a WG in it instead:

 

9 GHs- PR, Rhino- +WG- PF, C-P- 223pts.

9 GHs- MG, Rhino- +WG- PW- 203pts.

9 GHs- Flamer, Rhino- +WG- PF, C-F- 213pts.

 

Now the difference is: Chaos has a higher Ld, the ability to use their special weapons throughout the battle at full effect, in the MG case an extra SCCW attack, while the GHs have ATSKNF, counter attack and acute senses... and lose out on firepower. The Wolf Gaurd ALSO take up a precious elites choice, limiting the number of scouts and dreads I can field even further- one reason I dont take them alot is Id rather have a pair of dreadnaughts backing up my force.

 

We can do alot of other interesting comparisons- like say MoS vs a Wolf Standard- sure the WS will allow the reroll of all 1s, wich can be very powerful- as is counter attack- but our slaaneshi foe is now getting to pummell as I 5 before we can make those attacks. MoK is also a cheap upgrade that allows the entire unit to be as deadly as a stock WG, for the same price in a 10 man squad... without having to give up special weapons or ultragrit like a WG unit has to- and without having to buy a particularly expensive special character.

 

MotW is considered by many to be a powerful upgrade, but I cant see it. Assuming an average roll you end up with 4 attacks, 2 hits, and one wound- wich will ignore armor 1/3 of the time... wich happens to be the same rate as failed armor saves, and a smaller chance to kill a marine than a PW.

 

On the other hand, we have the CSM rhino, a wonderful vehicle- base price is the same as a SW one, but the options are far more interesting. Combi weapons are a particularly undervalued peice of equipment in my opinion- an extra meltagun shot, or a flamer, is enough to keep this tank threatening even when the squad is disembarked, but small enough that many opponents will dismiss it or forget about it. The havoc launcher is also a rather good antitroop gun, like a miniature WW template.

[Legatus]

Other interresting upgrades for Grey Hunters you might consider: One extra SCCW, one extra plasma pistol (for a possible total of 4 plasma weapons in an 11 man squad, or 3 in a 10 man squad) and of course the drop pod.

 

 

For fun: 10 CSM with IoSlaanesh and Powerfist are charging 9GH with PW + 1 WG with PF.

 

--> CSM strike first with 27 attacks (+ 3 PF), scoring 13.5 hits (+1.5 PF) and 2.25 wounds (+1.25 PF) after saves. Total kills: 3.5 MEQ.

 

--> 5 GH + 1 WG strike back, with counter-attack (the chance is >80%), so 12 attacks (+3 PW, +3 PF), scoring 6 hits (+1.5 PW, +1.5 PF) and 1 wound (+0.75 PW, +1.25 PF). Total MEQ kills: 3.0 MEQ.

 

The slaanesh CSM units just charged a cheaper SW unit (210 vs. 198 with just the gear they used to fight with) and only barely won with 3.5 vs 3.0 kills, so it will often result in a draw, with there even being realistic chances that the Space Wolves will win (if the CSM kill only 3 models, not the rounded up 4, for example).

 

If it were the Space Wolves charging the Chaos Marines on the other hand, they would win the combat by 1-2 kills.

[the jeske]

Combi weapons are a particularly undervalued peice of equipment in my opinion- an extra meltagun shot, or a flamer, is enough to keep this tank threatening even when the squad is disembarked, but small enough that many opponents will dismiss it or forget about it. The havoc launcher is also a rather good antitroop gun, like a miniature WW template.

only havocks cost a lot of points and both them and combis are rather hard to use on rhinos that get stuned and shaken all the time.

as csm go people forget one thing . IF we break in hth and get caught we die , If we break from shoting and there is fewer of us then we wont stop runing[and loyalist sm just auto pass and can go back to working like normal on their next turn] .

Icons are all fine and dandy , but they die [and with them we cost more then GH]. ATSKNF cant die .

 

20 -30 pts more on one unit doesnt seem much till you notice your playing with 3-4 units of troops and those 20-30 pts turn in to half a unit a pred or an IC.

 

 

also mage your forgetting that if you take 9 GH a fist WG and a power weapon for the squad or even a combi for the WG, you still cost less then a 10 man csm unit with an asp champion and fist.

[Grey Mage]

also mage your forgetting that if you take 9 GH a fist WG and a power weapon for the squad or even a combi for the WG, you still cost less then a 10 man csm unit with an asp champion and fist.

Im not forgetting jeske- for my playstyle that unit would be nearly worthless.

[saphius]

Situational. So, No, they aren't better. Just different.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The Grey Hunters are better than the Chaos Space Marines.

 

Why?

 

It's called moral fibre, traitor!

 

For The Emperor!

:D

[minigun762]

Well, in that case heres my three standard competitive loadouts:

 

10 GHs- 2xPR, PF, Rhino 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x MG, PW, Rhino- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Flamer, PF, Rhino- 210pts.

 

10 CSMs- 2x PG, AC w/PF, Rhino- 255pts.

10 CSMs- 2x MG, AC w/PW, Rhino- 235pts.

10 CSMs- 2x Flamer, AC w/PF, Rhino- 235pts.

 

9 GHs- PR, Rhino- +WG- PF, C-P- 223pts.

9 GHs- MG, Rhino- +WG- PW- 203pts.

9 GHs- Flamer, Rhino- +WG- PF, C-F- 213pts.

 

In the end I think the point difference might be the biggest issue. LD vs ATSKNF is probably about the same. Counter-Attack is a nice bonus but I'd say its about the same as having a built in Champion instead of taking an Elite slot up.

 

In this case, I think Jeske hit it on the head.

20 -30 pts more on one unit doesnt seem much till you notice your playing with 3-4 units of troops and those 20-30 pts turn in to half a unit a pred or an IC.