Rhammidarigaaz Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 A little introduction... I played 40K for a couple of years back in late middle school/early high school (around the tail end of 2nd edition, beginning of 3rd). Since then, I've been away from the hobby, but now I'm ready to come back in a serious way. Back in the day I played Eldar, but now I think I'm going to take up a Space Marine Chapter (I can't believe I'm saying that). Two chapters interest me: Blood Angels and Space Wolves. I've had a Hell of a time deciding which to collect (I'm a poor grad student... I can't afford both for the foreseeable future, and I won't do a successor chapter/play both deal... First Founding or Bust). I'm 99% there with Space Wolves... there are just a few things holding me back. One is their crazy hair... both some of the silly haircuts, and especially the balding ones (give me old, grizzled vets... but balding space marines just don't jive for me). I know that I can clip hair, but I don't need more bald wolves :D In any case, this isn't what I'm here to discuss. Another thing holding me back from the Wolves is their sense of silliness. I get the partying, drinking, viking theme they have going. What I don't get from the Space Wolf fluff is the sort of seriousness that would seem to be an essential part of being a Space Marine. Many times, it seems as if the Wolves are often the comic relief of the Astartes... not always (the HH story with Bulveye was, I think, great) but often. All of the Astartes orders are meant to be, at their core, monastic orders. In my own 40K universe, this monastic bent is present in the Wolves, although in their own very particular form. However, if I'm going to be honest, the fluff doesn't seem to support this at all. I see my drinking than prayer or meditation. I guess what I'm asking is this: how serious do you picture the Wolves of Fenris to be? I ask because background is a HUGE part of the hobby for me, and when I pick an army to collect, I want to be fully committed... that's how I roll. Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontline989 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 The only thing I find silly about the SW is the fluff for Canis Wolfborn. That might be some of the worst writing ever. Other than that I have no problem with the SW as written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfen101 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I deffinitly get what your saying, they do seem to have that let loose, not so serious side to them, but for me at least they seem to still have that kind of "time to be serious now" when it comes to war, just not in the same way as other marine chapters. for me other marines seem to have this complete lack of personality, both on and off the battlefield, whereas the wolves seem more human(oddly enough) and outwardly with their own personal characteristics. they are still a very serious chapter, they just dont get their panties in a twist over a bit of fun is all =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaWolf Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I think if you really want to get a feel for this army and the personalities and how they think and act......watch the movie The 13th Warrior......you see the party side, the war side, you also see the religous side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmange Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Lakota I couldn't agree with you more!!!! Everytime I see 13th Warrior I get the itch to paint my Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 If you dont get the serious side of SWs, then I dont know what to tell you... your missing alot. Taking a Frostblade against the face of a hive tyrant is serious buisness. Silentlly infiltrating an enemy held world to disable the controls on their orbital defense grid is serious. Having to inform an Inquisitor that he will not be purging the entire continent for the failings of their imperial master is serious. Killing 40 times your number in orks in an afternoon is serious. That you go and have an ale afterwords and sing with your friends is just stress relief. Every second of everyday spent in combat is serious, the rest of it is keeping a 300 year old adrenaline filled werewolf sane. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Hallbjorn Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I've personally never found the fluff to portray them as 'silly'. Everyone has their different outlooks, but I just don't see the silly side. There are a few major differences between the Sons of Russ and the codex chapters that one should keep in mind when making comparisons. The Space Wolves are a chapter that still holds their primarch in very high regard, perhaps even on par with or at a higher level than the Emperor. That would all depend on which marine you ask and when. Not many chapters, even among the loyalists, hold their primarchs in such high regard anymore. It could be argued that the Blood Angels revere Sanguinis, but I would hardly compare that to the deeply-rooted respect that the Wolves have for Leman Russ. This is probably also due to the fact that in the limited accounts we have documented about Leman interacting with his men, he is seen more as a loving big brother than a hard-hearted general. The alpha of a pack is still a member, and treats his pack as his family (Because they usually are his literal family). And as far as the drinking and feasting and storytelling, the wolves have always had a very tribal tradition. Not even the Emperor finding Russ and fully forming the legion could sway Russ and his wolves from being who they have always been at heart. Many other chapters seem to have become more like their terran counterparts were during the time that the primarchs were being found. The primarch would usually be found as a planetary lord or leader with a standing army of natives. Big Papa E would come along, make his introductions, hand over the legion that he had made on terra, and let the recruitment go from the homeworld of the primarch from that point foreward. The codex chapters seem to have just strayed away from homeworld tradition and more toward a terran flavor. The Space Wolves will always be the men of Fenris that they were born as, no matter how many extra organs you stick in them. That's just my two cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosedragon Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I'm with you, all the way. I love my wolves though - I choose to ignore the shameless drunkard, farting in front of inquisitors, etc. Side of the wolves. All that overwriting in the codex was for the people who want to feel vindicated for buying their army, to give them a sense of pride that their army was the best. If the story read 'wolf lord so and so farted in front of an Inquisitor and was never heard from again' the wolves would seem much less heroic, and would leave a bad feeling in a newer player. There are two loosely intertwined sets of fluff in 40k. In one, every army is the greatest: the tau have unmatched technology, the wolves are surly drunken barbarians who can defeat any other race singlehandedly, inquisitors are all powerful, chaos is all powerful, orks are all powerful, marines are all powerful etc. The other sets each into perspective in the galaxy. Choose to follow the second one, where wolves have their own particular traditions, which involve drinking and feasting at appropriate times (which isn't every day that ends in y), but above all else they are space marines, with all that entails. Space wolves are great. Their color is distinctive, they offer great modeling opportunities, their codex is the bomb, and when put into an appropriate perspective are a really cool chapter. At the same time, it sounds like the blood angels fluff is about to get rewritten/advanced - you may want to hold off making your choice till their new codex comes out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 well the less serious part's mostly a theme spread by the players instead of the fluff because we just love joking around and don't need the seriousneess a space wolf would need. do i have evidence to back this up? yes and no no; well for example in wolf's honour one can cleary see how the wolf brothers who are equals (rags,haegr,....) joke around,yet are serious when needed(unless we're talking about haegr, but he's an exception to all=p ). However when we look at the bloodclaw packs featured in the same novel it shows quite cleary how the packs work(each has it's own alfa male so to speak, and dare one to step out of line). another great example of us not being the comical guys: erik morkai. just read his description on page 16. just read it, erik's deffinetly not a guy you want to joke with. a thing about the feasting too, it normaly doesn't really happen all the time. mostly it happens after a succesfull campaign to release themselves from stress etc. or we just have an occasional drink instead of the water (or whatever normal astartes drink). these things happen because they help us to keep our bond with the lives we had back on fenris and make us thereby, a great part more human than any other astartes. because this is what the space wolves really are, deadly hunters who work in packs, but most of all, human-like hunters, each with his own flaws and strenghts so if you want me to describe a wolf i'd say pick a guy who cares a lot about honour, friendship and loyalty. turn him into the deadly weapon an astartes is but have him keep his old habbits and traditions he had in the life before. the feasting, beltching etc is just barely the surface of what a space wolf is Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Another thing to consider too is squad selection/organization. I would reckon a Space Marine is assigned to whichever squad his skills would best suit. Given the high level of uniform training and the consistent standards for communication, tactics/strategies, as a whole, makes the Space Marines in a Chapter like brothers, but only on a militaristic level. As they campaign yes bonds will be formed, but there is still a distance, because individual Marines may be re-assigned situation dictating. The Wolves take the opposite extreme with their pack organization. From the very moment they become aspirants, a Pack is bonded. Very rarely is a brother taken out of the pack, and whenever they return, they are almost always returned to that same pack's fold. To that end, as they spend their lives together, these are not just the bonds of battle brothers. These are the bonds of family. Of siblings. Those of you who have siblings can probably readily attest that the bond you share with your brother, or your sister, will be far closer than the bonds you share with other people in your lives. And because of that bond, you can take your communication to the next level, being able to see a joke, or a comment, or a shift in body language, and instantly read the mentality of that person because you know them so well. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 All of the Astartes orders are meant to be, at their core, monastic orders. This is where you're getting confused, I feel. Originally there was nothing monastic about them. They were twenty legions organized by the Emprah (in an entirely secular society) designed to prosecute his war of reclamation. They didn't begin acting 'monastic' until after the interment of the Emprah on the Golden Throne, and even then, it only applied to a few of the chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LorgarXVII17 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I dont see the Space Wolves as "silly" per se. They may act rather foolish when they're not slaughtering the xenos scum that plagues our galaxy. They just have very different traditions. If you want the Wolves, go with them. By Russ, I promise you wont regret it <_< . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 All of the Astartes orders are meant to be, at their core, monastic orders. This is where you're getting confused, I feel. Originally there was nothing monastic about them. They were twenty legions organized by the Emprah (in an entirely secular society) designed to prosecute his war of reclamation. They didn't begin acting 'monastic' until after the interment of the Emprah on the Golden Throne, and even then, it only applied to a few of the chapters. QFT, which is why when reading the Horus Heresy novels, all of the Legions (Even between each other) exhibit behaviour more reminiscent of current day Space Wolves than they do of say the Ultramarines (the pretty boys). It is in fact probably due to the Space Wolves not being broken up into smaller Chapters that allowed it to retain this sort of "behaviour" DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhammidarigaaz Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Thank you all for your quick replies... except for this: If you dont get the serious side of SWs, then I dont know what to tell you... your missing alot. While I'm not sure that I would agree with all of your interpretations (of Space Marines generally, etc), I very much appreciate the thoughts. I'm not going to argue any points, as I'm quite non-confrontational; especially so on the internet, especially when I'm new to a forum. (Singling out that asinine comment is even unusual for for me... for some reason, the demeaning and dismissive tone just grates on me :drool: ) I should say, to address some of the points raised in the thread, that I really do recognize the dichotomy embodied in the Wolves' character; it is a classic warrior-barbarian culture trope as applied to a science fiction setting. In fact, I am very much a fan of the theme generally, and I'm generally a fan of the way that it interacts with the Wolves. I only meant to suggest that some fluff seems to put too great an emphasis on the one aspect of the Wolves' character for my taste. In any case, I've decided to pull the trigger on the Wolves. It's been about a decade since I last tried to do any modeling, so I assume my progress will be slow (my first target is a 750 point force). If it's not too unwelcome after this thread, expect to see me around the forum in the future. Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 its simple , if they didnt focuse on that "silly" side of us wolves , then our SW codex might jsut as well be another "ultramarine codex" , it pays to be badass mate XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Thank you all for your quick replies... except for this: If you dont get the serious side of SWs, then I dont know what to tell you... your missing alot. I would suggest that Grey Mage, when he said "If you don't get it .... you're missing a lot" is not saying that you are mentally feeble and it is so obvious that if you are missing it, in a psychic scan you could be mistaken for a spade, But rather You are missing out on a great deal of joy that the SW offer those who follow them, and perhaps have mistaken the un-Ultramarines down time that SW enjoy and taken it that they are not mighty and accomplished (serious) Warriors. He then goes on to site the mighty and accomplished (serious) acts of war the perform, in there own idiosyncratic style. To show that there down time hasn't impinged on their warfare. I think that was the gist of what he meant, and I don't think it was intended as a barb. I'd put any confusion down to the black and white nature of text AND that you haven't yet spent much time with him, he has always been a good bloke in my interactions with and around him. But, just to be on the safe side, I think he is a man-witch, and you always need to keep a zealous eye on their kind *spits* :D ..... :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 ...the rest of it is keeping a 300 year old adrenaline filled werewolf sane. A relative term for our blue-grey armored bretheren. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Space Wolves put a lot of effort into accomplishing great feats, whilst a Tactical Marine might realize trying to shish-kebab that Hive Tyrant a Blood Claw would relish the chance to stick the poor sucker. I don't see the Wolves as drunks, they enjoy drinking and feasting, but they prefer to kick some enemy butt, however you cannot do that 24/7 and their down-time is different, at the end of the day so long as they can still defeat the enemies of mankind, then awesome, if they can have fun whilst doing so, even better. Now, to the Great Hall! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I love the not so serious have a drink attitude of the wolves, and thats why stuff is always a bit more rowdy on this part of B&C. They just dont meditate all day when on a ship, they train or the have a drink, sure they pray, but only in combat so Russ and the emperor watches them do great deeds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Yeah, I don't see them as silly at all. Someone mentioned Canis' background fluff as silly. My response to that is this: read the stories in the book as if they were being told around the longtable after a good fight and a good feast. Elements of it are most certainly true, but there is probably some exaggeration in there. That being said, the only "silly" thing we have in our book (and also some of my favorite fluff, but *almost* certainly exaggerated) is Lukas. But he's not as much "silly" as he is "hilariously mischevious." He's definitely the Anansi, the Jackel, the Monkey King and the Loki of the Sky Gods. I love my pups. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b in need Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 i personally don't find the Space Wolves "silly" but more free spirited. I switched from the Salamander's to the Space Wolves after reading the first Space Wolves omnibus because i thought they were more "Human" in they way the act and think. It seems that the Wolves are just as likely to get in a food fight with their pack mates as they are to recklessly charge a mob of orks. The wolves are also considered silly cause they are seen as being to easy-going and don't seem to take much seriously, the quote on pg 20 of the Codex might mislead people its a typical exchange between Ragnar Blackmane's Wolfguard: "Look after yourself today - you still owe me two flagons from our last arm wrestling match. It would be just like you to get yourself killed to avoid paying your debts." I don't think this should be interpreted as them being "silly" but as a way to relieve tension, many movies portray the elite soldier's as haveing this same kind of attitude and is some what what we expect from such elite beings who really don't feel fear. i don't know, maybe i'm just rambling but i can see how the Wolves would come off as being one of the least serious chapters. But remember, there's not a whole lot of stuff that is as scary as a 8 or 9 foot tall fully armoured, hairy as hell, and howling Space Wolf charging down your throat, just ask anyone who's been charged. of course you'd have to commune with the dead to do it ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2266979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 The Wolves are deadly serious to anyone outside of the Chapter as described in every single bit of fiction or fluff ever written about them. They just laugh joke drink and feast more than other chapters who also joke and laugh. Admittedly if you look at some of these current head sculpts in the Pack box you'd think they look stupid too, that's why you shouldn't use any of them without copious greenstuff! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2267033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I don't think the wolves are silly I think that they blow steam off more the way soldiers do today. Soldiers, especially those returning from a war are known for getting into trouble and doing really stupid things, believe me I can attest to this from personal experience. The other side is that even most modern military units hold a tradition know as dinning in and out. These are times of feasting, getting drunk, especially for the senior leaders, and generally allow everyone to relieve stress free from the work environment/battlefield. So some of their silliness I see as them just blowing off steam and if they do it in front of a really important and serious imperial person, who cares because when was the last time that desk jockey stared down the barrel of a bolter at an oncoming horde of xeno scum. As for some of the farfetched stories, as I tell people I tell my war stories to I reserve the right to embellish and modify my story as I see fit after all I was the one who lived through it not you. basically I reserve the right to lie through my teeth and know that I am because that is the right of any valiant veteran. After all by body is scarred from shrapnel along with missing half of my lung on my left side and I have no feeling on that side of my torso either, so heck yeah I have the right to tell made up stories. Some guy with a RPG couldn't kill me, you want to give it a try. With those thoughts in mind I can only imagine how a Space marine must feel. As to playing wolves we are the best, we don't worship a corpse, we don't have hidden secrets, we have personalities, and most importantly of all we kick butt and if a few of us die in combat well that's what happens when you fight and you always know your brothers have your back. For the Wolfen time and for RUSS! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2267050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 The only thing I find silly about the SW is the fluff for Canis Wolfborn. That might be some of the worst writing ever. Other than that I have no problem with the SW as written. I thought so as well until I heard about the possible origins of the wolves on Fenris as proposed by the events in the "The Thousand Sons" book (yes copies are out and information is out there.). I personally feel we just are not as stiff and boring as other chapters. Most of the others seem "stiff". While we can enjoy a good brawl, ale and food versus meditating and talking about dry stuff. As mentioned the Horus Heresy short story with the 13th Company certainly paints a grim picture of us. The only thing I think is shown as "silly" in 40k are orks. And that is in a very grim type of way which suits them very well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2267101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 There are no wolves on Fenris Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/#findComment-2267108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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