Lord Ragnarok Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 You mean "were" ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 All of the Astartes orders are meant to be, at their core, monastic orders. This is where you're getting confused, I feel. Originally there was nothing monastic about them. They were twenty legions organized by the Emprah (in an entirely secular society) designed to prosecute his war of reclamation. They didn't begin acting 'monastic' until after the interment of the Emprah on the Golden Throne, and even then, it only applied to a few of the chapters. c-wrex, I'm going to have to side with Rhammidarigaaz (damned, that is a long name) on this one. If you go back and read (or reread) the original Rogue Trader rulebook, and even the other early accessory books, all of the Space Marine Chapters were presented as essentially monastic orders, including the Space Wolves. It wasn't until much later as the game and its background was developed that this changed. I think the difference in your persepectives is that you are looking at the "in-game" timeline, using "current" background material/fluff, whereas he is looking at actual "real-time" information on the background material that was true between 1987-1992, or thereabouts. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 The original fluff of the Space MArines had them as little more than gene-enhanced human thugs. There's even artwork of them sitting in a bar in the RT Rulebook. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 All of the Astartes orders are meant to be, at their core, monastic orders. This is where you're getting confused, I feel. Originally there was nothing monastic about them. They were twenty legions organized by the Emprah (in an entirely secular society) designed to prosecute his war of reclamation. They didn't begin acting 'monastic' until after the interment of the Emprah on the Golden Throne, and even then, it only applied to a few of the chapters. c-wrex, I'm going to have to side with Rhammidarigaaz (damned, that is a long name) on this one. If you go back and read (or reread) the original Rogue Trader rulebook, and even the other early accessory books, all of the Space Marine Chapters were presented as essentially monastic orders, including the Space Wolves. It wasn't until much later as the game and its background was developed that this changed. I think the difference in your persepectives is that you are looking at the "in-game" timeline, using "current" background material/fluff, whereas he is looking at actual "real-time" information on the background material that was true between 1987-1992, or thereabouts. Valerian Could be. I never read any of the fluff from before 3rd edition material. I'd assumed what was standard around the IA time was always the case, but I didn't even know that the Ultras were a 3rd founding (!!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhammidarigaaz Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 I really do hear what you all are saying. Maybe I got off on the wrong foot... let's start over. Hey, I'm new to the fold. I played 40K back in the day, when I was much younger (around the 2nd/3rd edition interface), and I am just now returning to the hobby. I've decided to go all in on the Wolves of Fenris, which is what brings me here. I'm a grad student in philosophy (!), the name is that of a dragon from old M:tG books, and I like long walks on the beach (but not really, I hate the beach). Back in the day, I was a slow modeler and a terrible painter (I don't think I ever had a full painted squad); I suspect that little has changed. One thing that has changed is my set of standards; I can't bring myself to put unpainted models on the field (though I don't mind that others do). To that end, my first target is a 750 point force. I've looked through the codex, drawn up a little list, and put cash into the models. I don't know how long it will take to get my first batrep on here, but trust that I'll do so regularly once I actually start playing (sometime in the far future... the grim darkness thereof). For Russ and the Allfather Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfGuardVortek Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 There are no wolves on Fenris Really? I could have sworn there are wolf pelts on my Grey Hunters. :mellow: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So what's this big hulking brute? A hair squig?! *holds up a snarling mass of teeth, claws, and fur* The Wolves of Fenris are distantly related to the wolves of ancient Terra, most likely brought there during the early colonization of the galaxy before the Dark Age of Technology. Unless of course BL put something out that says different. Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 The only thing I find silly about the SW is the fluff for Canis Wolfborn. That might be some of the worst writing ever. Other than that I have no problem with the SW as written. I thought so as well until I heard about the possible origins of the wolves on Fenris as proposed by the events in the "The Thousand Sons" book (yes copies are out and information is out there.). So...what is this origin? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era. And Commander Storm was Lord Lucan at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So what's this big hulking brute? A hair squig?! *holds up a snarling mass of teeth, claws, and fur* The Wolves of Fenris are distantly related to the wolves of ancient Terra, most likely brought there during the early colonization of the galaxy before the Dark Age of Technology. Unless of course BL put something out that says different. Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era. Actually I believe it stated in older fluff that they were native to the planet, and part of the reason tyranids couldnt take it over eons ago. Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era. And Commander Storm was Lord Lucan at the time. Yes, and Leman Russ was an IG commander with a single SM organ implanted in him after a horrifyingly powerful gas attack. And Tigurius was half-eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era. And Commander Storm was Lord Lucan at the time. Yes, and Leman Russ was an IG commander with a single SM organ implanted in him after a horrifyingly powerful gas attack. GM, where did you get that from? Leman Russ was never an IG Commander, he was an Imperial Commander, original title of a Chapter "master", and he was also Lord Lucan, well before (10,000 years) Commander Storm. Furthermore, his cyber-osmotic gills, which were necessary following said gas attack which destroyed his lungs, where definitely not one of the standard Marine implants. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannen Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I like a good beer while playing so it fits me hehe The think that got me hooked was reading "battle for the abyss". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 That makes me feel a bit better about my favorite Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era. And Commander Storm was Lord Lucan at the time. Yes, and Leman Russ was an IG commander with a single SM organ implanted in him after a horrifyingly powerful gas attack. GM, where did you get that from? Leman Russ was never an IG Commander, he was an Imperial Commander, original title of a Chapter "master", and he was also Lord Lucan, well before (10,000 years) Commander Storm. Furthermore, his cyber-osmotic gills, which were necessary following said gas attack which destroyed his lungs, where definitely not one of the standard Marine implants. V Sorry, mixed IG-SM commander, and Im pretty sure that the third lung all marines get implanted with is an osmotic gill... he was not origionally a primarch... as there were no primarchs in RT, wich really was my point- its all kind of changed since then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 There are no wolves on Fenris Really? I could have sworn there are wolf pelts on my Grey Hunters. ^_^ All will become clear as the strands of fate and time arrange themselves before you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madsakre Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 http://dearcalliope.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wolfman.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhorse47 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 "HAIR SQUIG?" Bran, I nearly sprayed coffee all over. Don't do that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2267907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Problems with the Space Wolves: My biggest problem with Space Wolves is the excess of Slapstick humor present in the Chapter's Fluff. Lukas being the prime example. Where other Chapters have masters of stealth, technology, or reconnaissance, the Space Wolves have a master prankster. The drunken brawling is an extension of this silliness. Would a real fight over honor end in hugs and handshakes, or would it end in the death of a combatant? Why is their no ritual combat in a chapter based on warrior honor? It is always alluded to, but never demonstrated. If a slight was severe enough to cause a brawl, why would it no be severe enough to force a duel? The example of the Space Wolves receiving dignitaries and burping at them or fighting the Eldar over translation errors cannot be taken seriously? If the Wolf Lord disliked the dignitary why would he not kill him for wasting his time, and why did the Wolf Lord receiving the Eldar not plan an ambush and kill them for being Xenos? Why is the main theme for the Chapter based on a fictional creature? It breaks the suspension of disbelief. The Viking theme in the Space Wolves is underplayed, compared to the 'Wulfen'. The Vikings have a lastign legacy of toughness, ruthlessness, and warrior skill unmatched by most barbarian civilizations. They were excellent sailors and explorers, and very little of this is explored in the Space Wolves background. The people of Fenris are far more dark and gritty than the Space Wolves themselves. Why have the authors thought it best not to incorporate other barbarian elements into the Space Wolves? The German tribes are a gold mine of warrior history, unexplored and untapped. The Space Wolves have completely done away with the Codex. Really? Not so much. They have identical analogues with Codex Chapters, the difference being the personnel who fill the ranks. They still fight like every other Chapter, which to me, is a waste. They could be so much more. They could focus on raider tactics and naval expertise, becoming a unique fighting force, as opposed to hairy Ultramarines with Wolf Cavalry. Dan Abnett made a good point when he theorized the only reason the Emperor let someone as ruthless as Crusade-era Space Wolves exist was to police other Space Marine Chapters. His ace-in-the-hole to deal with a rebellion. Why are the Space Wolves not seen as bogeymen to other Astartes Chapters? Would that not be a whole new level of awesome and depth? Whenever the Badab War happened, why were the Space Wolves not there, rocking A Perfect Circle's Count Bodies like Sheep, and tearing through the Astral Claws defenses? I dont get why Logan Grimnar is loved by other marines and Imperial Citizens, why is his leadership praised? He should be an amazing commander in the vein of Leman Russ. Leman Russ didn't make friends, if you didn't notice, he got the job done. He was a loyal renegade before being a loyal renegade was cool. If Grimnar was voted unanimously in charge of all Astartes during the 13th Black Crusade, it should have been because of his ability to get results, no matter the cost, not because he was a people person. Personally, I see the Space Wolves differently. I see all Chapters differently. In my 40K, Space Wolves are the reavers, the nightmares, the bogeymen. Citizens fear them and Astartes avoid them. When Space Wolves go to war the Imperium trembles in fear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I disagree wholeheartedly with your entire post. But I respect your opinion and views, and your entitlement to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 What do you disagree with? The sentiment that slapstick humor detracts from the Chapter? Or that the Space Wolves should be ruthless warriors feared by all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 And Tigurius was half-eldar. Ewww...horrible revelation for me. I remember reading the name Tigurius in middle school and thinking it was a cool name and character. At that time he was the ultimate psyker (and I usually gravitated towards mages etc. in my games). I have been using some form of that name for 15+ years now. To hear the original was half eldar!!?? I feel so...dirty haha ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I disagree with the image you perceive is portrayed in the fluff of the chapter, and that the characteristics you feel should be shown aren't. I get the idea that Space Wolves are feared by all. Everyone is wary around them. They are not quick to make friends, but bonds earned through honour are kept forever. I also get the idea they are a reaving force. What are hundreds of warriors crashing down in drop pods to ransack an enemy if not the 40k equivalent of longships making shore and taking strongholds? I think they are portrayed perfectly and I don't get the idea at all that they are slapstick. Vikings used to brawl and fight each other. They used to laugh and live. The Wolves are the same. In fact they are closer to the true ethos' of the old Legions than any other. They do not venerate the Emperor as a God, it seems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumdin Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't see the space wolves as having slaptick humor. Slapstick humor kinda reminds me of three stooges and fumbling over each other. I picture the wolves as hardened veterans that from birth are taught the art of war. They fight other tribes and live and die by the sword. This constant life of war is balanced by the camardrie of feasting and drinking with their comrades after battle. The feasting is rejoicing the fact that they can live and fight another day. It also remembers the members of the pack that have been lost in battle. The 13th warrior like someone said before is a prime example of space wolves. They joke to show that they can laugh into the face of fear. I don't think duels are fought that often because it would mean raising a weapon against a battle brother. It would have to be most dire of insults and when the insulter turned down a chance to take back the insult once he has been made aware of what is would mean. Also the company commaders are not idiots and would not casually kill emmissaries coming to meet them. They would weight consequences of their actions. The interaction between pack members in some companies may be joking but remember the space wolves books have mainly concentrated on Berek's / Ragnar's company interactions. You dont really see what occurs in other companies. But you do see the rivalries between the company commanders. Ragnar's actually suffers and gets sent to become a wolfblade because of political infighting about the loss of the spear of russ. I think that no one Chapter would show fear of another. Its like giving up before the war is started. I think chapters respect each other's abilities but don't necessarily agree on their tactics or styles of war used. Astartes are angels of death. They enforce the emperor's will and protect mankind from all the evils that are pitted against it. They sometimes have to kill or hurt innocent people to accomplish their goals. Orbtal bombardments are not so precise that they can't guarantee innocent lives are not lost. I also think that preheresy short story is a prime example of space wolves. They do what is right for the empire and tried to free that planet from the dark eldar and sacrificed themselves to do it. But in the end they still had to carry out their great crusade and I know that the space wolf commander had hoped that they would join the empire peacefully. Logan is more loved because he is willing to stand up for what is right even though it can go against what the current power structure has ruled. He is stood up againt the inquisition where others may not have. But it doesn't mean he will throw away chaper brothers lives for frivilous reason. He holds to the fact that the Astartes are outside the laws and power structures of man. They report to the emperor only. I think all astartes are feared by the imperium and most citizens have never seen one. My 2 cents on the subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I wholeheartedly agree with Brother Lumdin Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 When Space Wolves go to war the Imperium trembles in fear My personal opinion has all space marines fitting that role. All astartes invoke quite the gnashing of the teeth and releasing of bowels. I see SW as having more of there personality. More of their levity, along with their serioius blood spilling side. Being able to perform the blood eagle one moment and laugh it up with a stein of ale the next. They feel more "human" than regular stiff back SM's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191065-are-the-wolves-of-fenris-too-silly/page/2/#findComment-2268185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.