Are the Wolves of Fenris too Silly?

[Marshal Rohr]

I disagree with the image you perceive is portrayed in the fluff of the chapter, and that the characteristics you feel should be shown aren't.

 

I get the idea that Space Wolves are feared by all. Everyone is wary around them. They are not quick to make friends, but bonds earned through honour are kept forever.

 

See, that care-bear bonds of honor stuff is the fluffy, good-feelings that should not be present for the Space Wolves.

 

I also get the idea they are a reaving force. What are hundreds of warriors crashing down in drop pods to ransack an enemy if not the 40k equivalent of longships making shore and taking strongholds?

 

Except, all Space Marines do this, and some do it better than Space Wolves.

 

I think they are portrayed perfectly and I don't get the idea at all that they are slapstick. Vikings used to brawl and fight each other. They used to laugh and live.

 

Vikings did use to fight. A lot. And kill each other. A lot. What the problem is, is the writers are writing it like its a modern 21st century fight. Transport yourself back then and it would be way more apparent that fights dont end in 'good jobs' and 'well dones' between the combatants. They would indeed laugh and live, but not by our morals and ethics. 13th Warrior is a fine example of Viking culture, but again, Space Wolves should be darker. Everything in 40K should be darker.

 

The Wolves are the same. In fact they are closer to the true ethos' of the old Legions than any other. They do not venerate the Emperor as a God, it seems.

 

Thats an incredibly relative statement. The Space wOlves are indeed close tot he ethos of the old Space Wolves Legion. But the Space Wolves Legion was never really a 'true' Legion like the others. It was always independent, and I would say a fair bit more ruthless.

 

I don't see the space wolves as having slaptick humor. Slapstick humor kinda reminds me of three stooges and fumbling over each other. I picture the wolves as hardened veterans that from birth are taught the art of war. They fight other tribes and live and die by the sword. This constant life of war is balanced by the camardrie of feasting and drinking with their comrades after battle. The feasting is rejoicing the fact that they can live and fight another day. It also remembers the members of the pack that have been lost in battle.

 

So what part about Lukas doesnt come across as slapstick then. I can almost hear the Benny Hill theme everytime he is mentioned. The people of Fenris are right on the money. The feasting and drinking isnt the problem, its the way its portrayed.

 

I don't think duels are fought that often because it would mean raising a weapon against a battle brother. It would have to be most dire of insults and when the insulter turned down a chance to take back the insult once he has been made aware of what is would mean.

 

In a honor focused warrior society, the chance to avenge ones honor through combat is a classic trope. The Space Wolves shouldnt care about raising a hand against a brother, unless he was one of his own pack or similar circumstance. The coolest bit of SW fluff I ever read was Logan Grimnar telling Ragnar if he wanted his job he'd have to fight him first. It was both lordly and ferocious. And cool.

 

Also the company commaders are not idiots and would not casually kill emmissaries coming to meet them. They would weight consequences of their actions.

 

The Space Wolves fired on an incoming Ecclesiarchy Fleet, Im sure killing a dignitary isnt a big deal to them. The showdown with the Ecclesiarchy was another situation that was poorly executed. It comes down to a 'get off mah lawn' instead of a 'we fear no man'.

 

The interaction between pack members in some companies may be joking but remember the space wolves books have mainly concentrated on Berek's / Ragnar's company interactions. You dont really see what occurs in other companies. But you do see the rivalries between the company commanders. Ragnar's actually suffers and gets sent to become a wolfblade because of political infighting about the loss of the spear of russ.

 

Erik Morkai is the Wolf Lord I picked. You know why? Because he gets it. The ends justify the means, and results are more important than morals. (Too him of course, I dont ever suggest a person lives life like a Space Marine)

 

I think that no one Chapter would show fear of another. Its like giving up before the war is started. I think chapters respect each other's abilities but don't necessarily agree on their tactics or styles of war used. Astartes are angels of death. They enforce the emperor's will and protect mankind from all the evils that are pitted against it. They sometimes have to kill or hurt innocent people to accomplish their goals. Orbtal bombardments are not so precise that they can't guarantee innocent lives are not lost.

 

Space Wolves have the potential to be the bump in the night. It is a waste to have them not be that.

 

 

Logan is more loved because he is willing to stand up for what is right even though it can go against what the current power structure has ruled. He is stood up againt the inquisition where others may not have. But it doesn't mean he will throw away chaper brothers lives for frivilous reason. He holds to the fact that the Astartes are outside the laws and power structures of man. They report to the emperor only.

 

Again, carebear, Marysueness. Why could he have done those things because he answers to no one but Russ and the Allfather?

[MaveriK]

A little introduction... I played 40K for a couple of years back in late middle school/early high school (around the tail end of 2nd edition, beginning of 3rd). Since then, I've been away from the hobby, but now I'm ready to come back in a serious way. Back in the day I played Eldar, but now I think I'm going to take up a Space Marine Chapter (I can't believe I'm saying that). Two chapters interest me: Blood Angels and Space Wolves. I've had a Hell of a time deciding which to collect (I'm a poor grad student... I can't afford both for the foreseeable future, and I won't do a successor chapter/play both deal... First Founding or Bust).

 

I'm 99% there with Space Wolves... there are just a few things holding me back. One is their crazy hair... both some of the silly haircuts, and especially the balding ones (give me old, grizzled vets... but balding space marines just don't jive for me). I know that I can clip hair, but I don't need more bald wolves :) In any case, this isn't what I'm here to discuss.

 

Another thing holding me back from the Wolves is their sense of silliness. I get the partying, drinking, viking theme they have going. What I don't get from the Space Wolf fluff is the sort of seriousness that would seem to be an essential part of being a Space Marine. Many times, it seems as if the Wolves are often the comic relief of the Astartes... not always (the HH story with Bulveye was, I think, great) but often.

 

All of the Astartes orders are meant to be, at their core, monastic orders. In my own 40K universe, this monastic bent is present in the Wolves, although in their own very particular form. However, if I'm going to be honest, the fluff doesn't seem to support this at all. I see my drinking than prayer or meditation.

 

I guess what I'm asking is this: how serious do you picture the Wolves of Fenris to be? I ask because background is a HUGE part of the hobby for me, and when I pick an army to collect, I want to be fully committed... that's how I roll.

 

Thanks

 

First of all, I'd like to say WELCOME to the Fang! I know the transition from xeno/eldar ideology to an astartes/space wolves mentality can be difficult to some people, but no matter what my wolf brothers say or tell you just know that your welcome amongst the sons of Russ and may your saga be great! whatever you think or how you view the wolves is entirely up to you, what matters is having fun with it.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

it may have been stated but im lacking in time to read the whole thing. many of the other chapters have taken on a monastic appearance to be more closely related to the knights in space theme. despite what many think the religion of Christianity during the middle ages was viewed by pagans as a belief system that denied life, fun, and enjoyment. It called for the worship of a corpse god and all the rituals of a very harsh church that went along with it. The fact that many of the northmen were forced by sword point to give up their gods helps me believe this.

 

on the other side the old gods allowed their followers to live full lives as they saw fit and a better ending then they viewed the christian ending one filled with mead, a good fight, food, and the company of those they killed and dead friends.

 

I think (i may be thinking too much into this) that this is why the space wolves are allowed to have all their fun in drinking carousing and brawls.

 

as they are based off of the pagans of the north lands who lived albiet harsher yet better lives of men whos faith in gods allowed them to live their life to the fullest instead of the harsh back breaking life given to the church that many middle age Christians had to live with.

 

 

just a few cents.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I agree with how SamaNagol & Lumdin

have seen it. There is plenty of mood and sternness in SW and indeed the whole 40K universe. You just have to pay attention to it, especially if that is how you like it :D .

 

Marshal2 Crusaders, I understand that you want more grit in your 40 K. That is fine.

I don't. It seems you want 40 K to be the equivalent of having Death Metal as it's elevator music. Yuck :blush: .

I'm not being critical of Death Music or those who like it. I am saying it is not the right music to be stuck in a metal box with.

 

As I shared the last time you raised the issue of SW being drunkards, it is just something that has been brought to light this time. It was always there but Phil Kelly gave it an emphasis. Next Codex I am sure something else will be emphasised, just like each Codex of every army has in previous editions. It is just one slice of the pie.

 

You might like extra grim dark on your serve of 40 K but that is why the salt, pepper and hot-sauce are on the table, for those who need more zing with it. For others who like it how it is served, if they had to deal with the extra grim dark you want added straight from the Codex, they'd probably gag.

You can't really wash marinade from a steak, if you catch my drift.

 

*In real life, even Satanists are not doing 'those things' all the time. They eat food, go grocery shopping, put fuel in their car, laugh, cry and sleep.

 

All PK has done is shown the SW doing the 'eat food, go grocery shopping, put fuel in their car, laugh, cry and sleep' ~ stuff.

 

It seems you want SW to be doing 'those things' all the time and don't want to countenance them being human (albeit post-human, to use the BL turn of phrase) at all.

 

I don't think that is realistic on your behalf.

 

That is my take on it. ;)

[nurglespuss]

For me there is a simple comparison (that highlights your example):

 

Space Wolves - 'more' serious in the original fluff (oddly practically terrifying in the new Horus Heresy stories - more mental than world eaters). In the new/current 'game' fluff and new codex, space wolves have a more drunken-viking-smelly look.

 

Lord of the Rings Gimli the dwarf - in the book serious, often dower, honorable, unafraid, a feirce warrior, the equal of Legolas.

 

In the film - comedy extra, a characature of the real idea.

 

I think thats whats happened here. Space Wolves have become a bit of a characature of themselves.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The only thing I find silly about the SW is the fluff for Canis Wolfborn. That might be some of the worst writing ever. Other than that I have no problem with the SW as written.

 

 

I thought so as well until I heard about the possible origins of the wolves on Fenris as proposed by the events in the "The Thousand Sons" book (yes copies are out and information is out there.).

 

okay Lord Rags, can you please either explain this in better detail or pm me about this? i lack the patience to wait till the 23rd and would like to have this explained.

 

WLK

[Prophecy]

Ditto, Kieran. Also, I'd like to throw my lot in with Ludlim. That man has hit the Space Wolf "feel" squarely in the snout. I actually copied your post into a text file in my 40k folder for future reference, should it be necessary (mainly for my own perusal. Don't worry, you'll be credited on the off-chance I feel the need to repost it).

[SamaNagol]

I don't get 'carebear' from Space Wolves. Logan not wanting the thousands of remaining men and women who fought alongside the millions and millions who died on Armageddon to be shipped off to workhouses and sterilised so they die out isn't skipping through the meadows smelling flowers. It is acknowledging the debt of honour those brave people earned dying against unimaginable evils.

 

The impression I get from the Space Wolves from the background is that until you earn their respect they are VERY abrasive, very dour and serious and very lethal. And their respect is earnt seldomly.

 

If you want to complain about how chapters are portrayed in the fluff you should try reading some of the adventures of the Gullible Blood Angels or Uriel Ventris and his mob.

[Beef]

I think we should not even be having this discusion. SW being comic relief. ^_^?

 

Since when. By even entertaining such heresies on this board we open the flood gates to all manner of propaganda from our detracters.

SW are one of the hardest, most ferocious and deadly marines in existance. Reports of them being comic relief are greatly exagerrated by

non SW players (and false SW players alike).

 

Yes Sw drink and Brawl but its not party all the time. Read up on the old FLuff and you will see most of the time between battles is spent training. they dont become the killing machines they are by sitting around the fire getting drunk and telling stories.

 

Now lock this thread and flamer it before some of the younger pups start believing the lies about SW.

[Marshal Rohr]

The comic relief attitude is perpetuated by the players themselves. It's almost like they take pride in it.

[SamaNagol]

:s

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The comic relief attitude is perpetuated by the players themselves. It's almost like they take pride in it.

 

Are you trolling Marshal2 Crusaders? :huh:

 

It seems you have an ideal where players of 40 K go around with scowls on there faces, because 40 K is serious man ;) *forms bull-horns with hands and prepares to scream into mike*

 

You seem to have some Utopian ideal and expect/want players to conform to it.

It's a hobby, for fun. Kids play it. Big kids play it. Some people get into. Some people get into it too much.

 

What you want is akin to fluff players wanting power gamers 'reformed' and any other minority expecting others to conform to their world view of the hobby. Your world view is fine, but so is their's.

 

What you are sharing doesn't seem to be helpful at all. :wacko:

[Lord Ragnarok]

The comic relief attitude is perpetuated by the players themselves. It's almost like they take pride in it.

 

This must be your local area. But as stated. This is all for fun. If we want to be serious stay focused on real life. 40k is an escape. It's perfectly fine for you to have some ideal of how an army should look and feel, however, that is your opinion amongst thousands. No less, no better.

 

Again, I've never seen it. I'd replace comic relief, with "character" hard living/hard loving. I'd see no problem with a SW grabbing some ladies for some fun after eviscerating all traitors in sight. I just don't see that with the stiff back codex chapters.

 

I don't think that is comic relief, I think it makes them more real.

[hendrik]

The comic relief attitude is perpetuated by the players themselves. It's almost like they take pride in it.

 

This must be your local area. But as stated. This is all for fun. If we want to be serious stay focused on real life. 40k is an escape. It's perfectly fine for you to have some ideal of how an army should look and feel, however, that is your opinion amongst thousands. No less, no better.

 

Again, I've never seen it. I'd replace comic relief, with "character" hard living/hard loving. I'd see no problem with a SW grabbing some ladies for some fun after eviscerating all traitors in sight. I just don't see that with the stiff back codex chapters.

 

I don't think that is comic relief, I think it makes them more real.

oh come on now rags! everybody knows the darkangels meet way more often with the ladies then we do! ofcourse they do it to see if their new robes look good on them ;)

[MaveriK]

The only thing I find silly about the SW is the fluff for Canis Wolfborn. That might be some of the worst writing ever. Other than that I have no problem with the SW as written.

 

 

I thought so as well until I heard about the possible origins of the wolves on Fenris as proposed by the events in the "The Thousand Sons" book (yes copies are out and information is out there.).

 

okay Lord Rags, can you please either explain this in better detail or pm me about this? i lack the patience to wait till the 23rd and would like to have this explained.

 

WLK

 

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234063

it's in the spoilers, but I'd rather read the book first to find out for myself ;)

[Valerian]

Also, just to throw it out there, the Space Wolves originally lived on Lukan, not Fenris. This was changed after RT era.

 

And Commander Storm was Lord Lucan at the time.

Yes, and Leman Russ was an IG commander with a single SM organ implanted in him after a horrifyingly powerful gas attack.

 

GM, where did you get that from? Leman Russ was never an IG Commander, he was an Imperial Commander, original title of a Chapter "master", and he was also Lord Lucan, well before (10,000 years) Commander Storm. Furthermore, his cyber-osmotic gills, which were necessary following said gas attack which destroyed his lungs, where definitely not one of the standard Marine implants.

 

V

Sorry, mixed IG-SM commander, and Im pretty sure that the third lung all marines get implanted with is an osmotic gill... he was not origionally a primarch... as there were no primarchs in RT, wich really was my point- its all kind of changed since then.

 

GM,

 

The third lung implant in all Space Marines is called, simply, the "Multi-lung." The cyber-osmotic gill was a form of bionics, essentially, that was necessary for that original Imperial Commander Leman Russ, who required it after the gas warfare. Presumably, it was because all three of his lungs had been severly damaged.

 

You are correct that the Primarch concept wasn't there in the actual Rogue Trader rulebook, released in 1987, but I am pretty sure that they did exist in the "Rogue Trader era", i.e. before the release of 2nd Edition in, oh, 1993 or so. However, that brings up a good question, which is when the retcon that introduced the Primarchs, including the new version of Leman Russ occured. I thought that it might be in one of the Realms of Chaos Books (The Lost and The Damned or Slaves to Darkness) which were released in 1988 and 1990, but I didn't see anything in those when I skimmed them prior to coming to work. I'm guessing that the Primarchs started in a White Dwarf article, and might have been included in the White Dwarf Compilation book, but I don't have that one and cannot confirm. If anyone out there has any insight on when/where we first saw Primarchs in the fluff, please step in.

 

Samo,

 

You are also quite correct that the monastic-warrior theme wasn't really present in the RT rulebook, but it appeared in the RT era soon after. From very early after 40k appeared on the scene, lots of SM background evolved, which included Marines that operated out of Fortress-Monasteries, had a daily regime that included prayer and meditation, use prayers and rights of incantation in the operation of their machinary and technology, and travel in space-craft whose architecture is very reminiscent of gothic cathedrals. Additionally, Chapter leadership include Chaplains, who tend to the morale, faith, and purity of their brethren. The warrior-monk theme was quite prevelant in the early years of the game for Space Marines. In later years, it seems, that this theme has not been emphasized nearly as much, except perhaps for the Dark Angels chapter, and also perhaps for the Black Templars; it certainly doesn't seem to mesh with the contemporary theme for the Space Wolves.

 

Best regards,

 

V

[Grey Mage]

What do you disagree with? The sentiment that slapstick humor detracts from the Chapter? Or that the Space Wolves should be ruthless warriors feared by all?

Well I think your argument is full of internal contradiction- you state that the viking parts of the fluff are undershown, but then discount a number of things that are very viking about them:

 

1) Brethren/comrades having non-lethal duels/brawls to settle disagreements.

2) Killing foreigners over translation errors- this happened historically.

3) Being both jovial *Skjol!* and deadly serious within the same breath- scandinavians were known for their odd sense of humor.

4) Over representation of the Wulfen- while I admit, the current codex has increased the amount of wulfen fluff it doesnt change the fact that the curse is still just that- the CURSE of the wulfen, dreaded, feared, and faught against by every brother.

 

5) Codex Analogues.. Im not seeing them. There are squads that serve a similar purpose- GHs vs Tacticals being obvious, and LFs vs Devastators... and vehicles. But the Codex Astartes is alot more than that- Scouts dont form assault squads, nor do they get PA *All 3 types of BCs do though, and our scouts are well trained elite warriors* and we have no 1rst company. More men, different training methods.... the proof is there. The CA is far more than a couple of units, and the SWs dont match up with it at all.

 

You do make a point in that their fighting style- in general- is similar to other chapters, but thats because they have similar capabilities and resources- SWs have more than most chapters, but an individual GC is not significantly larger than a well reinforced Battle Company *say a full BC, 10-15 Veterans, 10-15 scouts, and 20-40 from the reserve companies*. The difference between US special forces, Israeli special forces, and British special forces in general tactics and abilities is slim, but their styles, structures, and equipment vary wildly.

 

I also have to ask if you think the BA silly, for their ties to Vampires?

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't have my pc so I can't do a full reply, so

forgive me.

 

No, I am not trolling. I do think the BAs will be silly if the vampirism is overplayed, which I fear it will be. Yes, my Former local Space Wolf player was overbearing and refused to acknowledge even the most basic grimdark of the Chapter. He would insist the only reason space wolves fight is for glory and to get drunk.

 

I do believe on a forum fluff shoul be taken in a more serious light, since it is the Internet and we can get away with it. We can talk here in a way that would make most people say ;) in real life, but here we can without fear of nasty looks :P.

 

I do significant research on all the historical sources for the chapters I play, and I can tell you on the deepest levels it's skims over it for the space wolves. I am not against the feasting and honor duels, I am against the frequency and motivations begin the fights.

 

I promise I am not trolling, I just

dislike they way it's presented an wish it wouldn't be continued. If anything I share beef's views on the wolves with a darker slant.

 

Again, I apologize for the spelling but I cannot see my entire posts ^_^

[Marshal Rohr]

That wasn't supposed to be a cuss and now I can't edit my posts...

[Grey Mage]

That wasn't supposed to be a cuss and now I can't edit my posts...

Its ok, I dont see a cuss anywhere.

 

We just disagree on a few things, and thats cool- I agree with you on the bogeymen kinda thing, and Im suprised in one part- I thought we had a GC in the Astral Claws situation after it had developed a bit.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think they did after the initial response.

 

I think we can all agree the Space Wolves make ideal bogeymen. Follow the Codex or die a seriously painful death.

[SamaNagol]

Space Wolves have never, in any iteration of the fluff, been described to adhere to any sort of monastic doctrines.

 

Their first White Dwarf article featuring Ragnar, Njal and Ulrik showed them pretty much exactly the same as they are today.

 

Seems like people are just conjuring these issues out of thin air.

[SamaNagol]

And Primarchs were retconned into the 40k Compendium from 1989

[TiguriusX]

There are no wolves on Fenris

Really? I could have sworn there are wolf pelts on my Grey Hunters. :blush:

 

All will become clear as the strands of fate and time arrange themselves before you.

 

 

Don't be cruel to your brother Space Wolf.

 

"Alleged" Spoiler:

 

 

 

The latest HH novel allegedly contains a portion where Magnus discusses the settling of Fenris. It was too harsh for the original settlers so they were "altered" in a manner similar to Space Marines. The origin of the Canis Helix I think. The original Fenrisian Wolves as they are known were the failed alterations that went too far.

 

 

[Grey Mage]

According to one guy, who says its "suggested" that doesnt make that spoiler real.