People using "bad" rules at stores.

[Tevelyn]

I'm not posting to ask a question about a rule. I'm posting to ask how you guys handle it when you're playing somewhere and people are misinterpreting the rules and you are outnumbered in understanding/wanting to handle things correctly.

 

Just so you understand my position, I was playing against a guard player earlier today, he put 3 guardsmen in front of a leman russ, normal lasgun carrying cadian models, and when it came to my shooting phase claimed that the 3 tiny cadians blocked 50% of the hull to the tank because they were half as tall as the tank. I tried to explain to him that it was true line of sight and that I could see more then 75% of the tank because the infantry didn't take up the volume of air above their base, simple the space that the models actually took up, He called over another guy who claims that they called gw and argued with them about it and "how else do you expect imperial guard to screen their vehicles". I respond simply that the rules make it very difficult to screen your vehicles, bordering to impossible to do it with troops, which they scoffed at. I wound up rolling it off and he won the roll-off so I let him take the cover save on his vehicles for the entire game.

 

Now the problem here is that I KNOW the rules, i know the interpretation and it very nearly cost me the game. It's not a small or ambiguous word problem or even raw/rai. It's a clear instance of them reading the rules wrong. How do you guys handle instances like this? Where other people playing the game's rules misinterpretations are going to cost you the game and you want to straighten them out without sounding like a dick?

 

Thanks for the attention

 

Tev

[KhorneHunter57x]

Fortunately for me, I almost never have this problem because I have a reputation as a "walking BRB" at the two places I play.

 

How I would have handled this situation (assuming that I did not have that reputation) is that I would have shown them the applicable page in the BRB and if that didn't work, I would offer them the "reasonable doubt" 5+ save and argue about the rule after the game.

 

I think that they might be mis-remembering the rules from Warhammer Fantasy, in which IIRC the models take up the whole base for line-of-sight purposes.

 

how else do you expect imperial guard to screen their vehicles

If they use this argument this again, respond with one word: Ogryns. :mellow:

[Hfran Morkai]

Well it clearly says 50% of the vehicle, not 50% of the vehicle at or below the height of the army's standard infantry model.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If it is a one off game, then I'd be loose with it at the time, then post game call a GW staff member over (if you were at the store) or other wise grab an experienced player.

 

The GW staff or the experienced player 'should' be fair and give the accurate ruling.

 

If it is someone you are playing on an ongoing issue, 1st choice - don't play them, 2nd choice - reason with them in the hope they will play the rules correctly, 3rd choice - play them even with there 'special' rules and let it be AND whatever way they play the rules then you play the rules that way too.

Don't let them say 'well your playing it our way so you know we are right' be honest and say 'I played it your way because I want a fun game free of arguing, I never said you were right'

 

After all rules are only something made up by GW. If both sides play by the new 'special' rules then in theory no one misses out.

 

*They could be jerks and are manipulating the rules. Don't get yourself flustered by it. If you can't convince them, play it their way. Just try to make sure that you don't play them if at all possible.

 

**They could be naive. They could be misunderstanding the rules. We humans are wonderfully arrogant creatures and even if we know that we are wrong, because we thought it was played that way it can take us a time to back down and admit we are wrong.

 

It is just a game. Don't worry about being right. You are right, they are just not in a position to see that (whether that is deliberate or accidental). Enjoy the game.

 

I hope I have helped. :mellow:

[Tevelyn]

well they're not jerks. i play at two stores prominantly, I play at and books too in lafyette, louisiana and they're great guys and most of htem know the rules better than me, and i play at galactic games in new orleans, la. Where their understanding of hte rules is spotty kind of a lot of the time. It's not malice it's just frustrating going from one store where everyone is just dead on and fun to play then going to another store where I have to fight through weird rules interpretations. I had to abancon a conversation with someone the other day because they thought 4th ed style bikes counted as a ccw and thus you couldn't get the bonus attack for extra hand weapon on a bike.

 

I may try to talk to the guys next time I"M in and explain. I play templar and have a hard enough time dealing with guard without them getting magic cover saves =P

 

Tev

[Commander Sasha]

In regards to your actual rule problem here, I'd suggest that they are also confusing the 4ed rules regarding height of models, where size 1, size2, & size 3 models were treated as blocking each other. As suggested, get clarification from a GW employee, or forward a link from a discussion such as this one.

 

To your original question, I think you handled the situation EXACTLY as we all should in these situations, as you left the table without upsetting anyone, and the 'Roll for it' rule allowed you to finish the game. You, I, and everyone who has read this thread, know that you won the argument, even if you lost the battle!

 

If only more players could accept a bit of unfair luck as well as you did! Treat yourself to a cookie!

[Vanor]

I'm curious, are they claiming that the size of the base has some sort of invisible cone that extends to the height of the model and you are supposed to factor that into LoS and the rest?

 

Cuse if that's the case they really don't have a leg to stand on, there is no such rule. Page 62 makes it quite clear that more then 50% of the target must be covered by terrain or models to be considered obscured. There's even a picture to make it very clear what is being said.

 

Then on page 16 it explains how true LoS works and the height and all of the models are taken at face value from the PoV of the firing model.

 

So I don't see how it can be even argued as a mater of interpenetration. The rules are extremely clear and a simple reading of those two pages should prove that putting 3 infantry in front of a tank is not going to provide 50% cover.

[Bobman]

Being as I play in a few different places with no real 'home' I get this alot. My problem is I never want to hold up precedings while I search out rule pages. to be honest I usually let it go and look it up again afterwards.

 

In your case where the rules are quite straight forwards I would try and get them to see differently next time, if no luck then pick another opponent.

 

When 5th came out I went to a store and had the same problem with DOW set up trying to explain that units and transports count seperatly.

[Hymirl]

Its a bit difficult really, if you feel cocky enough you could simply take the "Ok, if you want to cheat thats fine, I'll cheat too!" and do something really blatently illegal like move your models 24" to assault his or something. When he naturally complains use his argument "I phoned GW and they said it was ok, besides how do you expect me assault marines to assault the guardsmen if they get shot to bits from far away."

 

This generally works if you can hold it, but you to be fairly spontainous and you do end up having to be a dick about it to get your way - you won't have much moral high ground dispite being right. At the end of the day it might just be easier not to play the guy again and if he asks you for a game to explain that you don't want to play him because he cheats and the game would be no fun.

[Roachboy]

you think thats bad you should have heard my opponent trying to claim he was obscured because a tau gun drone was in front of his chaos land raider (team game)

[Isiah]

you think thats bad you should have heard my opponent trying to claim he was obscured because a tau gun drone was in front of his chaos land raider (team game)

 

Must have been either a big drone or a small 'Raider :D.

 

 

 

Seriously these things crop up. Try to point out the relevent rule during the game (not always easy I admit) or roll for it as you did Tevelyn. In some cases this might seriously disadvantage you though – so a lot depends on whether you think it's worth carrying on or not. Such things can ruin the atmosphere I know.

 

One trick is to use the new err, 'rule' to your benefit too. Why not as it's already been interpreted that way? What's good for the goose is good for the gander as we say here in the UK. Although it always pays to say as your doing so that "this isn't really how it's done but..." or something similar.

 

The worst thing you can do is bend a different rule in another situation to suit yourself. That just smacks of immaturity.

 

TLOS and wound allocation cause the most 'issues' I've found simply because they function totally dissimilarly to 4th Ed and people have long gaming memories I guess and get easily muddled :).

 

You handled it well so ^_^.

[Demoulius]

everyone at my local store does this too and it just pisses me off....ive told so many people how it works and it sticks in their minds for 5 seconds...on avarage ;)

[gdeathlegion]

Nothing pisses me off like this does. These kind of [edited] REALLY piss me off.

Show him the rules, Vanor stated it correctly. It is blatant and brutally obvious what the rule implies.

If they dont agree, then just pack up your models and never play that dude again.

Seriously those dudes can go play with each other. :cuss

 

 

Mind the language pleasae!!

[Hymirl]

The worst thing you can do is bend a different rule in another situation to suit yourself. That just smacks of immaturity.

 

Its not to suit yourself; its to illustrate the point, ideally you pick something completely absurd like the next time he fires a weapon you explain that he can't hurt your models because they're toughness 10 and have a 1+ invunerable save.

At which point they'll immediately complain that you're not following the rules and you can say "Well you're cheating, so I thought its ok if I do it too...whats the difference?"

 

Or you could never play with the fool again, depends if you think they'll see sense or throw a massive tantrum I guess.

[Isiah]

Hmmm still not a good idea, just means you're lowering yourself to their (low) standards.

 

Cheers

I

[IronWinds]

I called GW and they said...

 

"Oh well I wasn't there for that phone call, maybe there was a misunderstanding. Do you mind if we call them back on speakerphone?"

 

Or call GW about it yourself, or better yet email them and bring the reply with you. Problem solved.

[Todosi]

Sorry Ironwinds, that's not gonna help. GW answers on the phone mean absolutely nothing. Those guys are just till monkeys like any other redshirt in a store and their answers hold no weight. The only semi official rulings from GW are contained in the FAQs.

[Grey Mage]

One trick is to use the new err, 'rule' to your benefit too. Why not as it's already been interpreted that way? What's good for the goose is good for the gander as we say here in the UK. Although it always pays to say as your doing so that "this isn't really how it's done but..." or something similar.

This is how I do it during tournament situations if a rules quote *with lookup* doesnt solve the problem.

 

Its amazing how often they say "but wait, it doesnt work like that!!??!" and I say, well thats how you said it does, so lets decide right now- from just after this moment on how is it gonna be?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I'm more or less a new player so havent really had this issue yet, mostly play with guys that could recite the rule book. but if this did happen to me i'd give him the 5+ cover save to avoid an argument and not game with him again. they're obviously too ignorant to learn the err' in their heathen ways!

[Grey Mage]

Remember- Ignorance can be taught, stupidity is forever :rolleyes:.

[Bobman]

I'm more or less a new player so havent really had this issue yet, mostly play with guys that could recite the rule book. but if this did happen to me i'd give him the 5+ cover save to avoid an argument and not game with him again. they're obviously too ignorant to learn the err' in their heathen ways!

 

Remember, people who recite the rule book are just reciting it, from memory. Ask them to point it out, any decent person wont mind looking in the book. People taking another persons word after reciting the rules is how whole gaming groups get the wrong end of the stick.

[Lord Mongol]

When there's a rules conflict and I'm certain they're wrong or I'm right... I go to the rulebook to confirm, most folks are pretty reasonable when the text is in front of them, and if there is a time issue I ask to move on to the next instance, if possible, while looking up the rule in question. "Okay, I'll shoot something else while you look it up..."

 

Some of the guys I play with get pretty heated sometimes. I've seen rulebooks and dice thrown around and the odd rage quit following some serious trash talking. This sort of behaviour, to me, kills the fun. So when it happens, I try to redirect those who are still having fun, back towards the game... Where the fun is...

 

The middle ground here, which is more on point with the question, is dealing with people who are being unreasonable within the framework of the rules. If it's something ambigious, like a bonus that may or may not stack (with no errata or FAQ), then I'm usually inclined to go with it. "I don't think that's how it works, but let's get on with this game and have a good time!" Certainly, I've been wrong before, and I'm sure we've all realized after a game that you or your opponent were 'doing it wrong'!

 

If it's something ridiculous, something you can't let come to pass, like a lone guardsman giving a Baneblade a cover save, then call them out. Politely. Firm, fair, and friendly! "Okay, walk me through your chain of thought where you're getting a cover save from that lone guardsman." They might stumble upon your point of view through the course of saying their own out loud. The important thing is to not get upset. If they haven't talked their way into your line of thinking then explain your position. Politely. "Dude, here's the thing, the rules state you need to have half your model obscured and that guardsman barely covers a trackwheel, I can plainly see the majority of your vehicle." Now that both sides are presented, if nobody is giving ground, offer a roll off. Resolve to sort the issue out once the game is over.

 

Even taking the last approach, some people will get super defensive and not be open to dialogue. They may not even want to be friends afterwards. At the end of the day, it's a game, have fun! The more your opponent uses 'bad' rules the more heroic you are in victory.

[Demoulius]

well luckily it doesent really get heated in our FLGS. whenever a debate arises we either grab the rulebooks/codexi or ask a member of the staff. sometime staff members dont know either and we revert back to the former, grabbing the rulebooks/codexi. ive had lots of people saying they are sure, and in alot of cases ive said: id rather just check. cause its not that i dont believe you; but i thought the rules/worked in a different manner (or when i havent encountered something before i say that)

 

doesent seem to result in any arguments and quikly solves any problems that arise, if we cant find it in the rules we roll a d6 for it. 1-3 they are right 4-6 i am for example.