Cliches

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Well, seeing as there is a bunch of guides popping up all of a sudden, I think I will take the time and list a few cliches and awesomeness adders and generally things you should avoid.

 

Cliches

 

1. As previously mentioned by Octavulg, red and black color schemes. Everybody else has red and black color schemes. I have a red and black color scheme. Don't get a red and black color scheme.

 

2. One of those 'lost second founding/space wolf successor/legion". You aren't.

 

You can be Third or Fourth Founding with absolutely zero loss of history, and much more respect (as you didn't do a Ben Counter ;) ).

 

The Space Wolves had only one successor, and they were removed...somehow. I don't specifics, but that isn't important, they only had one successor.

 

As previously mentioned, you don't need to be a legion to be venerated and noble... and as also previously mentioned, you will probably gain more respect from your fellow Liberites if you don't.

 

3. Being a loyalist break off of a traitor legion. I must confess, I haven't seen this happen too often... yet. But I have heard it mentioned more than once as a major annoyance, so I will put it up here with the rest.

 

4. Being cut off in the Warp. Basically, this has already been stolen by the Fire Hawks. Again, I haven't seen it too often myself, but again, nost veteran Liberites look upon such chapters with great sorrow in their eyes.

 

5. Having most of the chapter devastated early in their history. This is mainly bad because its so overdone. Even I have seen it many times, and it gets old.

 

6. Having no early history. This is more of because you can't be bothered to make yours, and it comes across very poorly.

 

These things aren't bad if they are done corrrectly. I look forward to seeing the Space Howlers, a Space Wolf successor that got lost in the Warp briefly. I believe the author has the talent to pull it off without making it a horrible attempt to make his chapter unique. I myself have a chapter with traitor geneseed, but the only reason why it worked is because I didn't make it to make my chapters character more unique, I did it to make a chapter with their hearts broken over their sin, which has been with them since their birth.

 

However, if this is your first time making a chapter avoid these things, as well as...

 

Make me awesome! Cliches

 

1. Having more veterans than most. This doesn't do anything for your chapter except show people you want it to be more cool. This has the oppisite effect, it makes people want to cry because of your much-used folly.

 

2. Having a gigantic ultra-awesome never before seen STC. Just don't, for reasons mentioned above. It is also important to mention that STCs are very, very rare. Chances of your chapter, which is only 1000 (or so) marines amongst untold octrillions of beings out there makes it even rarer, to the point of it being nigh impossible.

 

3. Making your marines hate UMs. End Ultrahate, and once again it is just a poor attempt at popularity amongst your fellow Liberites.

 

4. Being somehow involved in another exclusive, never before seen thing, but something more like it threatens the entire Imperium. Nothing that could possibly threaten the whole Imperium would be attended only by your chapter. Please don't make me say what I have said already.

 

Miscalleanous things that aren't cliches, but should be avoided anyways

 

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

 

2. Common motifs in your chapter symbol. Chances are, the flaming sword, or eagle wings, or lions head is already taken. Try to have something unique.

[sal of manders]

No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR!

I guess the imperial fist don't count as "sensible" then.

[Murrburger]

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

 

The rest looks great, but this is something I have a little bit of a problem with. I do agree that common schemes such as red and black... etc should be avoided. However, I don't think that there's anything wrong with bright colours on marines. Many of the chapters introduced in Rogue Traitor seem to pull it off without a hitch.

 

In a way, gritty, dark marines are a cliche of their own. You can have garish and loud colours and still be badass.

 

Take my opinions with a grain of salt... I did grow up with 2nd edition. ;)

[Donkey Kong]

As previously mentioned by Octavulg, red and black color schemes. Everybody else has red and black color schemes. I have a red and black color scheme. Don't get a red and black color scheme.

 

Hypocrisy is for fools. There is nothing wrong with a color scheme.

 

The Space Wolves had only one successor, and they were removed...somehow. I don't specifics, but that isn't important, they only had one successor.

 

The Wolf Brothers were disbanded due to genetic instability.

 

4. Being cut off in the Warp. Basically, this has already been stolen by the Fire Hawks. Again, I haven't seen it too often myself, but again, nost veteran Liberites look upon such chapters with great sorrow in their eyes.

 

The Legion of the Damned is becoming more mysterious. The reason the Warp isn't accepted isn't because it's been used in official fluff, it's because it's usually used to do some crazy concept like a Chapter or Company of a traitorous legion getting sent forward in time.

 

Having most of the chapter devastated early in their history. This is mainly bad because its so overdone. Even I have seen it many times, and it gets old

 

What? If done correctly, this idea is brilliant. The Dark Angels did it. The Crimson Fists had a recent experience. A Chapter almost being destroyed shows that the Space Marines can be defeated and may give some idea as to why the Chapter may use divergent tactics. They could even pull a Corax.

 

These things aren't bad if they are done corrrectly. I look forward to seeing the Space Howlers, a Space Wolf successor that got lost in the Warp briefly. I believe the author has the talent to pull it off without making it a horrible attempt to make his chapter unique.

 

Moderately, anyone who is true to the lore will absolutely hate: Space Wolf Successors (that aren't lost companies), Female Space Marines (even Dr. Thunder's admittedly alright fluff didn't inspire anything in me), and Deus Ex Maxima (getting lost in the warp, magical inquisitor, loyalist traitor primarch successors) never inspired anything.

 

Having more veterans than most. This doesn't do anything for your chapter except show people you want it to be more cool. This has the oppisite effect, it makes people want to cry because of your much-used folly.

 

Then clearly the Crimson Fists are trying to be cool? Following any sort of disaster it makes sense for a Chapter to have more veterans (whether veterans from the disaster or veterans so hard they survived the disaster). Albeit it needs an explanation, there is nothing wrong with this.

 

Making your marines hate UMs. End Ultrahate, and once again it is just a poor attempt at popularity amongst your fellow Liberites.

 

I've never seen this.

 

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

 

You are wrong in so many different ways, I cannot begin to explain . . .

 

1. The Imperial Fists are still around despite walking around in Bright Proud Golden Yellow

 

2. The Space Marines are more like knights than actual marines, you never hear about that knight in "not so shining armor".

 

3. It takes nothing away from the Chapter, in fact it adds a lot. Who can remember the Red Scorpions quote: "Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die."

 

4. Angels of Death are meant to be seen. You can fear two things, the things you see and the things you don't. You fear the things you don't see because of what they "could" be and what they "could" do. You fear things you see because you see what they have done and what they can do.

 

5. Bright Violet and Bright Yellow are no more outlandish than Bright Blue, Bright Green and Bright Red.

 

Common motifs in your chapter symbol. Chances are, the flaming sword, or eagle wings, or lions head is already taken. Try to have something unique.

 

And yet you fail to mention skulls.

- Exorcists

- Skull Bearers

- Legion of the Damned

- Chaplains

 

Regardless, all of these symbols can be original. The Lion Head can be taken from a variety of views, from the side (like the Celestial Lions), or from the front (like the Arctic Lions by Ferrus Manus). Flaming swords, or swords in general, can be held in a variety of ways (downward like the Dark Angels, crossed like the Jolly Rodger). Wings are original if they're combined with something, they're more of a modifier, I feel, than a stand alone symbol. The Dark Angels have a winged sword, etc.)

 

Please don't bandwagon unless you have something substantial to wave.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR!

I guess the imperial fist don't count as "sensible" then.

 

Of course not. They're too awesome to be sensible. :)

 

2. One of those 'lost second founding/space wolf successor/legion". You aren't.

The Space Wolves had only one successor, and they were removed...somehow. I don't specifics, but that isn't important, they only had one successor.

3. Being a loyalist break off of a traitor legion. I must confess, I haven't seen this happen too often... yet. But I have heard it mentioned more than once as a major annoyance, so I will put it up here with the rest.

 

All of these are covered here.

 

3. Making your marines hate UMs. End Ultrahate, and once again it is just a poor attempt at popularity amongst your fellow Liberites.

 

You should add in that this is for Loyalist DIYers only. Hating Ultramarines works just fine for Index Traitoris articles, as long as it's done well.

 

4. Being cut off in the Warp. Basically, this has already been stolen by the Fire Hawks. Again, I haven't seen it too often myself, but again, nost veteran Liberites look upon such chapters with great sorrow in their eyes.

 

This is covered here.

 

2. Common motifs in your chapter symbol. Chances are, the flaming sword, or eagle wings, or lions head is already taken. Try to have something unique

 

The Imperial Aquila is very common, but that doesn't stop people using it. ;)

 

IMO, this should only advise against cut-n-pastes of existing Chapter symbols.

[NightrawenII]

As previously mentioned by Octavulg, red and black color schemes. Everybody else has red and black color schemes. I have a red and black color scheme. Don't get a red and black color scheme.

 

Hypocrisy is for fools. There is nothing wrong with a color scheme.

 

Having most of the chapter devastated early in their history. This is mainly bad because its so overdone. Even I have seen it many times, and it gets old

 

What? If done correctly, this idea is brilliant. The Dark Angels did it. The Crimson Fists had a recent experience. A Chapter almost being destroyed shows that the Space Marines can be defeated and may give some idea as to why the Chapter may use divergent tactics. They could even pull a Corax.

Sorry, mate. but IM with Dark Apostle Thirst on this. These are the most used CLICHES in DIYing. So avoid them is always better.

 

BTW. (from head) Crimson Fists, the second founding chapter, were nearly destroyed 100 years before the end of timeline. ie. 13th Black Crusade.

 

Having more veterans than most. This doesn't do anything for your chapter except show people you want it to be more cool. This has the oppisite effect, it makes people want to cry because of your much-used folly.

 

Then clearly the Crimson Fists are trying to be cool? Following any sort of disaster it makes sense for a Chapter to have more veterans (whether veterans from the disaster or veterans so hard they survived the disaster). Albeit it needs an explanation, there is nothing wrong with this.

Half-full or half-empty cup. The Crimson Fists have less "normal" marines than veterans. :)

[Solomon de Gravier]

As i've already said in Octavulg's topic:

 

YOU HAVE NO POWER TO SAY WHAT IS WRONG AND WHAT IS RIGHT!!!

 

Sure, some points you have given are true but your stereo-types are massively over the line.

• I've seen plenty of red/black colour schemes that work wonders and really bring across the nature of the chapter in question. You say it's bad to have red/black armies but you said yourself that YOUR chapter is painted like that!?!?
  
• Cut off in the warp works really well if the author thinks about it and puts effort in. Who are you to say that I can't use a brilliant plot hook in my story/chapter?
  
• Devastation early on is, like the one mentioned ^above^, a brilliant plot hook.
  
• I've actually been told by a great veteran of Liber that very early history is pointless and mucks up IA's with horrible treacle that slows them down.
  
• What's wrong with hating Ultrasmurfs. I've seen hatred of other chapters really work for chapter background. It isn't just popularity fishing: it's a good story!
  

Just like Octavulg, you have gone too far with this. This is my opinion of course and I will happily eat my words if i am proved wrong.

[Ferrata]

I think my Questionnaire might have sparked something, although it is getting a little out of hand.

 

If you agree with all these points after the length discussion, you need to expand upon them.

 

1. As previously mentioned by Octavulg, red and black color schemes. Everybody else has red and black color schemes. I have a red and black color scheme. Don't get a red and black color scheme.

I disagree with this as much as I did when Octavulg wrote it. If you only take it that there are 16 colours in the world, we just scrape under 800 schemes (all one colour, two colour Ultramarine-style, halved and quartered). Red and Black are good colours, the colour of blood and the colour of The Emperor, if 40k were real, a lot of chapters would use those colours for that reason. They bring death to the enemies of The Emperor, so what better colours than those of blood and The Emperor. Mixing the shades up a little bit might get a better result, but schemes are of so little important in an IA there is no point in mentioning this.

 

5. Having most of the chapter devastated early in their history. This is mainly bad because its so overdone. Even I have seen it many times, and it gets old.

I disagree that it is bad because it is overdone. All the other examples are bad because they are done to do bad things (Warp to have loyalist-traitors). It really can work and makes a good chapter, it can be used to add character and reasoning behind everything. Read IA: Grief Bringers and tell me that it is a bad idea.

 

1. Having more veterans than most. This doesn't do anything for your chapter except show people you want it to be more cool. This has the oppisite effect, it makes people want to cry because of your much-used folly.

Having more veterans without a reason is a bad idea, not having more veterans. The Black Guard have a higher number of veterans, but this is due to how they fight and they take forever screening new recruits. These two things combined increase the veteran percentage. You seem to be confusing bad ideas with poorly done ideas,

 

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

I think bright colour schemes are just as good as dark ones.

2. Common motifs in your chapter symbol. Chances are, the flaming sword, or eagle wings, or lions head is already taken. Try to have something unique.

Like I said with the schemes, there are going to be recurring ideas in symbols - skulls, swords, eagles. Why? Because they are Angels of Death of the Imperium. Just because someone else uses a sword and skull, doesn't mean you can't.

[Sigismund Himself]

As i've already said in Octavulg's topic:

 

YOU HAVE NO POWER TO SAY WHAT IS WRONG AND WHAT IS RIGHT!!!

 

Sure, some points you have given are true but your stereo-types are massively over the line.

• I've seen plenty of red/black colour schemes that work wonders and really bring across the nature of the chapter in question. You say it's bad to have red/black armies but you said yourself that YOUR chapter is painted like that!?!?
  
• Cut off in the warp works really well if the author thinks about it and puts effort in. Who are you to say that I can't use a brilliant plot hook in my story/chapter?
  
• Devastation early on is, like the one mentioned ^above^, a brilliant plot hook.
  
• I've actually been told by a great veteran of Liber that very early history is pointless and mucks up IA's with horrible treacle that slows them down.
  
• What's wrong with hating Ultrasmurfs. I've seen hatred of other chapters really work for chapter background. It isn't just popularity fishing: it's a good story!
  

Just like Octavulg, you have gone too far with this. This is my opinion of course and I will happily eat my words if i am proved wrong.

You have to remember that these aren't rules or laws. They are guidelines for newcomers ^_^ They can be broken easily but not everyone knows what the cliches are in DIY making at first (if you want a prime example of this, search "Gryphon Guard" for a horrendous first chapter ;) ). At the end of the day, it's your IA and you can do what you want with it. Perhaps this needs to be stressed a bit more in the preface to this article.

[Walter Payton]

To be honest, there is no reason why you can't do any of the things that DAT has mention, you just have to try your dammnedest to make them plausible, and I have tried to. Click the link in my sig for lost STC goodness! Or at least, my fail of an attempt at plausibility. C&C welcome

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Woah, this did spark something indeed...

 

I think Sgismund says it the best : This is a guideline for newcomers. They should avoid these things until they have enough experience to pull it off correctly.

 

Gotta go though, I will expand later.

[Ace Debonair]

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

 

OK, so we've got one guy who doesn't like black or red, and another who thinks bright colours detract from seriousness. Anyone else offended by any colours? Anyone?

I'll assume that you haven't called the honour of my Beige Templars into question, by the way. They might be a bit laid back, but there are limits. :devil:

 

Without wishing to sound hostile, your opinion is not fact. Nor is mine, nor can anyone on this board categorically state their opinion dictates fact.

 

I personally do not give a rat's hindquarters what colour someone else chooses to make their chapter. I dislike certain things in a colour scheme, but since I am not one to discourage people from playing or writing an army they think looks cool, there is no need for me to discuss those things.

 

It's my opinion that the sudden urge to rant and rave about the problems with DIY-ing needs to be quelled, ASAP, and we should just get on with things and help people go in different directions from the cliches when they suggest them.

 

But then that's my opinion. It's not fact, and any further discussions along the lines of what's cliche and rubbish (or which colours are against the law) can continue freely.

[Marshal Rohr]

As i've already said in Octavulg's topic:

 

YOU HAVE NO POWER TO SAY WHAT IS WRONG AND WHAT IS RIGHT!!!

 

Sure, some points you have given are true but your stereo-types are massively over the line.

• I've seen plenty of red/black colour schemes that work wonders and really bring across the nature of the chapter in question. You say it's bad to have red/black armies but you said yourself that YOUR chapter is painted like that!?!?
  
• Cut off in the warp works really well if the author thinks about it and puts effort in. Who are you to say that I can't use a brilliant plot hook in my story/chapter?
  
• Devastation early on is, like the one mentioned ^above^, a brilliant plot hook.
  
• I've actually been told by a great veteran of Liber that very early history is pointless and mucks up IA's with horrible treacle that slows them down.
  
• What's wrong with hating Ultrasmurfs. I've seen hatred of other chapters really work for chapter background. It isn't just popularity fishing: it's a good story!
  

Just like Octavulg, you have gone too far with this. This is my opinion of course and I will happily eat my words if i am proved wrong.

 

 

 

True, since this is the internet our power stops with our keyboards. But lets not forget some of us have been doing this for a while (poor Ferrata) and have seen EVERY POSSIBLE IDEA. After a while you can spot the stuff that the writer can pull off and the stuff he can't. Newer liberites (unless they are amazing) tend to get stuck in some of these cliches.

 

I had a list a while back of the DIY progression. It was like Official Chapter with Background, Specialist Chapter, Loyalist Traitor Legion splinter, Official Chapter with no background shoehorned into a Legion like Chapter, cliche DIY, Improved DIY, final DIY. I watched my dad go through the process, until he finally quit and picked Guard, where he currently resides happily.

[War Angel]

i aggree with alot of what Dark Apostle said, but i feel he didnt go in depth on it, and thats why alot of people are hating on what he said.

 

See the thing is, if you do most of the things he mentioned, and you dont write it good, Its going to be garbage. However, you can do most of what he said not to, wirte it good, and have something truely awesome.

 

quick example, I think when he said having more veterans than anything eles, I looked at that and understood it as saying

 

"[insert poorly writen chapter name] has such good combat instructers, and there understanding of war is at a much higher level then that of other chapters. As such it is often said that if a recruit of [Poorly writen chapter name] could stand next to a veteran of [established chapter name] in the trench's of war, and the Emperor himself would not be able to tell who was the more seasoned veteran"

 

see... that is bad writing... and you can do the same thing for anything eles he said.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Again, someone has explained what I meant before me getting over there and doing it myself.

 

In this case its War Angel, he hit right on the head when he said

 

"See the thing is, if you do most of the things he mentioned, and you dont write it good, Its going to be garbage. However, you can do most of what he said not to, wirte it good, and have something truely awesome.

 

quick example, I think when he said having more veterans than anything eles, I looked at that and understood it as saying

 

"[insert poorly writen chapter name] has such good combat instructers, and there understanding of war is at a much higher level then that of other chapters. As such it is often said that if a recruit of [Poorly writen chapter name] could stand next to a veteran of [established chapter name] in the trench's of war, and the Emperor himself would not be able to tell who was the more seasoned veteran"

 

see... that is bad writing... and you can do the same thing for anything eles he said."

 

Again, this is a guide for noobs and beginners. They generally don't know what they are doing and don't have the experience to pull it off well, and their chapter will sound like

 

"[insert poorly writen chapter name] has such good combat instructers, and there understanding of war is at a much higher level then that of other chapters. As such it is often said that if a recruit of [Poorly writen chapter name] could stand next to a veteran of [established chapter name] in the trench's of war, and the Emperor himself would not be able to tell who was the more seasoned veteran"

 

whcih is what I want to avoid. Thats why I built this list, is to tell the noobs and beginners out there not to do these things. If the don't, the above will happen and exasperate people like Ferrata.

 

I know some people can do these things and do them well, but these people tend to have a lot of experience. I must shamelessly use myself as an example, as my Lords of Shadow have traitor geneseed. Yes, it's a cliche, and the people who are new to the Liber should avoid it. However, since I had enough experience I pulled it off reasonably well.

 

It all depends on how good you are at building IAs.

[Octavulg]

Everyone:

To every person explaining how these can be just fine if done right? Yes. They can. That's not the point. The hallmark of the new DIYer is an embracement of cliche and an inability to develop it worth a damn. If pointing these out prompts people in a more original direction or makes them work hard at the more cliched areas of their DIY, that is a good thing.

 

Also, he already said that in the post. Right below #6.

 

Also, everyone is remarkably willing to dictate to others what those others are allowed to dictate. Now, while I appreciate irony (a lot), I appreciate it most when people are aware they're doing it. Just want to be sure.

 

* * *

Dark Apostle Thirst:

1. As previously mentioned by Octavulg, red and black color schemes. Everybody else has red and black color schemes. I have a red and black color scheme. Don't get a red and black color scheme.

 

While you're dead right it's a cliche, everyone else is dead right when they tell you you're being hypocritical here.

 

Since this is just a list of cliches (and thus, I might add, eminently suitable for inclusion in the existing section in the DIY Guide), I'd recommend taking out any particular further admonishment beyond "this is a cliche. Don't do it".

 

2. One of those 'lost second founding/space wolf successor/legion". You aren't.

 

You can be Third or Fourth Founding with absolutely zero loss of history, and much more respect (as you didn't do a Ben Counter biggrin.gif ).

 

The Space Wolves had only one successor, and they were removed...somehow. I don't specifics, but that isn't important, they only had one successor.

 

As previously mentioned, you don't need to be a legion to be venerated and noble... and as also previously mentioned, you will probably gain more respect from your fellow Liberites if you don't.

 

3. Being a loyalist break off of a traitor legion. I must confess, I haven't seen this happen too often... yet. But I have heard it mentioned more than once as a major annoyance, so I will put it up here with the rest.

 

4. Being cut off in the Warp. Basically, this has already been stolen by the Fire Hawks. Again, I haven't seen it too often myself, but again, nost veteran Liberites look upon such chapters with great sorrow in their eyes.

 

These are all already in the DIY Guide. Not that they're wrong. :devil: Though the Cursed Founding is an obvious and appropriate exception to #3. However, that's not quite the same, and the genetic origins of a Cursed Founding chapter should never be made clear.

 

5. Having most of the chapter devastated early in their history. This is mainly bad because its so overdone. Even I have seen it many times, and it gets old.

 

You are right. And most of the time, it's used as justification for either a massive shift in combat doctrine or a massive shift in beliefs. If it's not that, it's the one charismatic leader whose character shapes the chapter and their views foreeeeeeeeeeever. But...

 

The problem is that's pretty much the sum totality of how chapters change. It is important to note that, and make it clear that it is a cliche that almost must be used, but that when it is used it will need a lot of attention to be done well, and you are most definitely not the first person to do it.

 

6. Having no early history. This is more of because you can't be bothered to make yours, and it comes across very poorly.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this one. It is a bit of a cliche (as a kind man once said to me, "If any more chapters are shrouded in mystery we won't be able to see around the ruddy forum". However, it saves me reading something less relevant to the Chapter, and that's not a bad thing. It is important to keep the focus of an IA on what is, well, important - and if the chapter's founding was not critical to their modern character, leave it out.

 

1. Having more veterans than most. This doesn't do anything for your chapter except show people you want it to be more cool. This has the oppisite effect, it makes people want to cry because of your much-used folly.

 

As has been said, this needs clarification.

 

2. Having a gigantic ultra-awesome never before seen STC. Just don't, for reasons mentioned above. It is also important to mention that STCs are very, very rare. Chances of your chapter, which is only 1000 (or so) marines amongst untold octrillions of beings out there makes it even rarer, to the point of it being nigh impossible.

 

Also, the Mechanicus has the rights to all STCs by default, IIRC. You wouldn't get to keep it.

 

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

 

As others have mentioned, bright heraldry need not make your chapter less serious. Turn up the shadowing if it seems too bright. ;) \

 

Also, a large chunk of the most interesting GW chapters are quite bright. Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Howling Griffons...that's off the top of my head.

 

2. Common motifs in your chapter symbol. Chances are, the flaming sword, or eagle wings, or lions head is already taken. Try to have something unique.

 

Eh. I find the choice of this is often made because it lets people use GW (or some other company's) decals. Which is fine with me. This will often be decided on before other parts of the chapter are conceived, so it will also likely be decided on based on modelling concerns.

 

* * *

Ferrata:

I disagree with this as much as I did when Octavulg wrote it. If you only take it that there are 16 colours in the world, we just scrape under 800 schemes (all one colour, two colour Ultramarine-style, halved and quartered). Red and Black are good colours, the colour of blood and the colour of The Emperor, if 40k were real, a lot of chapters would use those colours for that reason. They bring death to the enemies of The Emperor, so what better colours than those of blood and The Emperor. Mixing the shades up a little bit might get a better result, but schemes are of so little important in an IA there is no point in mentioning this.

 

I think, Ferrata, that the fact you spend so much time in Liber may be misleading you. Every chapter I have started as a color scheme first, and was then coupled to an idea. The Stone Hearts' color scheme predates even their identity as the Stone Hearts by years. The Ice Lords are at least two years younger than their scheme. And so on. The colors of a chapter are their most visible identifying feature, and will often be what was first decided upon. It will likely be painted anything from ten to a hundred times. Sometimes more. It is very, very important.

 

* * *

Ace:

OK, so we've got one guy who doesn't like black or red, and another who thinks bright colours detract from seriousness. Anyone else offended by any colours? Anyone?

I'll assume that you haven't called the honour of my Beige Templars into question, by the way. They might be a bit laid back, but there are limits. laugh.gif

 

I'm fine with black and red. I'm very sick of seeing chapters that are all black, black with red, or black with red and some other color. It is the flagrant overuse that irks me. Especially of black. Reds as overused by DIYers so much as it is by GW.

 

I personally do not give a rat's hindquarters what colour someone else chooses to make their chapter. I dislike certain things in a colour scheme, but since I am not one to discourage people from playing or writing an army they think looks cool, there is no need for me to discuss those things.

 

Ace, don't go all "beautiful flower" on me now...

 

Personally, if people don't like the color scheme my chapter is using, I'll likely change it (within the boundaries of what I want for that chapter's scheme). This goes for a lot of things about an IA. Indeed, that's a large part of why people come here (I assume). They want help making their IA better in their own eyes, and in the eyes of others. Certainly, the frequently expressed desire to get into the Librarium suggests that what other people think matters a lot.

 

It's my opinion that the sudden urge to rant and rave about the problems with DIY-ing needs to be quelled, ASAP, and we should just get on with things and help people go in different directions from the cliches when they suggest them.

 

Sudden? I sent Ferrata a PM complaining about half this stuff back when I rewrote that section in the DIY Guide!

 

Also, to a certain extent, the point of this forum is to (politely) rant and rave to individuals about the problems with their DIYing. Trying to compile frequent ravings into a more organized form so that they are both more useful and possibly better understood is hardly out of keeping with business as usual here.

 

Hell, if we all had a little manifesto about how we think DIYing should be done, it'd actually be kind of interesting and would probably make some of our biases more clear.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Everyone:

To every person explaining how these can be just fine if done right? Yes. They can. That's not the point. The hallmark of the new DIYer is an embracement of cliche and an inability to develop it worth a damn. If pointing these out prompts people in a more original direction or makes them work hard at the more cliched areas of their DIY, that is a good thing.

 

Also, he already said that in the post. Right below #6.

 

For being the first person to see that, you win a prize... Not sure what that prize should be, but you win the auro of winning a prize anyways!

 

Seriously, it's about time someone pointed that out. I'm wondering why I didn't.

 

Dark Apostle Thirst:

1. As previously mentioned by Octavulg, red and black color schemes. Everybody else has red and black color schemes. I have a red and black color scheme. Don't get a red and black color scheme.

 

While you're dead right it's a cliche, everyone else is dead right when they tell you you're being hypocritical here.

 

Since this is just a list of cliches (and thus, I might add, eminently suitable for inclusion in the existing section in the DIY Guide), I'd recommend taking out any particular further admonishment beyond "this is a cliche. Don't do it".

 

I'm being a hypocrite? Never!

 

Probably wouldn't of had that scheme had I read what you wrote up though.

 

2. One of those 'lost second founding/space wolf successor/legion". You aren't.

 

You can be Third or Fourth Founding with absolutely zero loss of history, and much more respect (as you didn't do a Ben Counter biggrin.gif ).

 

The Space Wolves had only one successor, and they were removed...somehow. I don't specifics, but that isn't important, they only had one successor.

 

As previously mentioned, you don't need to be a legion to be venerated and noble... and as also previously mentioned, you will probably gain more respect from your fellow Liberites if you don't.

 

3. Being a loyalist break off of a traitor legion. I must confess, I haven't seen this happen too often... yet. But I have heard it mentioned more than once as a major annoyance, so I will put it up here with the rest.

 

4. Being cut off in the Warp. Basically, this has already been stolen by the Fire Hawks. Again, I haven't seen it too often myself, but again, nost veteran Liberites look upon such chapters with great sorrow in their eyes.

 

These are all already in the DIY Guide. Not that they're wrong. <_< Though the Cursed Founding is an obvious and appropriate exception to #3. However, that's not quite the same, and the genetic origins of a Cursed Founding chapter should never be made clear.

 

Note taken.

 

5. Having most of the chapter devastated early in their history. This is mainly bad because its so overdone. Even I have seen it many times, and it gets old.

 

You are right. And most of the time, it's used as justification for either a massive shift in combat doctrine or a massive shift in beliefs. If it's not that, it's the one charismatic leader whose character shapes the chapter and their views foreeeeeeeeeeever. But...

 

The problem is that's pretty much the sum totality of how chapters change. It is important to note that, and make it clear that it is a cliche that almost must be used, but that when it is used it will need a lot of attention to be done well, and you are most definitely not the first person to do it.

 

Yeah. I know. I'm thinking about removing this one.

 

Why can't a chapter be a nice, normal, codex adherent chapter, with no need for a radical change?

 

6. Having no early history. This is more of because you can't be bothered to make yours, and it comes across very poorly.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this one. It is a bit of a cliche (as a kind man once said to me, "If any more chapters are shrouded in mystery we won't be able to see around the ruddy forum". However, it saves me reading something less relevant to the Chapter, and that's not a bad thing. It is important to keep the focus of an IA on what is, well, important - and if the chapter's founding was not critical to their modern character, leave it out.

 

Noted, will probably edit.

 

1. Having more veterans than most. This doesn't do anything for your chapter except show people you want it to be more cool. This has the oppisite effect, it makes people want to cry because of your much-used folly.

 

As has been said, this needs clarification.

 

What is there to clarify? Don't grab more veterans than usual. I'm not sure what else there is to say.

 

2. Having a gigantic ultra-awesome never before seen STC. Just don't, for reasons mentioned above. It is also important to mention that STCs are very, very rare. Chances of your chapter, which is only 1000 (or so) marines amongst untold octrillions of beings out there makes it even rarer, to the point of it being nigh impossible.

 

Also, the Mechanicus has the rights to all STCs by default, IIRC. You wouldn't get to keep it.

 

Will add as soon as I finish posting this.

 

1 Pink or violet in your color scheme. Or any really bright color. No sensible Angel of Death is going across the battlefield in BRIGHT YELLOW ARMOUR! Seriously, that is just ridiculus. Avoid common color schemes, but avoid bright colors like the plague. It takes away all seriousness of your chapter.

 

As others have mentioned, bright heraldry need not make your chapter less serious. Turn up the shadowing if it seems too bright. ;) \

 

Also, a large chunk of the most interesting GW chapters are quite bright. Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Howling Griffons...that's off the top of my head.

 

Still... I don't know, I just don't like bright colors. This is grimdarkness, people, not pretty marines!

 

Ironicly, Angry Marines have bright armour as well.

 

2. Common motifs in your chapter symbol. Chances are, the flaming sword, or eagle wings, or lions head is already taken. Try to have something unique.

 

Eh. I find the choice of this is often made because it lets people use GW (or some other company's) decals. Which is fine with me. This will often be decided on before other parts of the chapter are conceived, so it will also likely be decided on based on modelling concerns.

 

Point taken.

 

Hell, if we all had a little manifesto about how we think DIYing should be done, it'd actually be kind of interesting and would probably make some of our biases more clear.

 

This is something I would like to see as well.

[Octavulg]

For being the first person to see that, you win a prize... Not sure what that prize should be, but you win the auro of winning a prize anyways!

 

You could tell me what an auro is...:wacko:

 

Seriously, it's about time someone pointed that out. I'm wondering why I didn't.

 

Because then you would have had to keep the prize.

 

Yeah. I know. I'm thinking about removing this one.

 

Don't. It's dead right. To paraphrase TVTropes: Cliches are not necessarily bad. They just require more development than other, less common, ideas will. You should probably make that clearer at the start.

 

Good writing, coherent planning and a small twist can easily make a cliche interesting and exciting. It's just that you need to do it, whereas with more original ideas it can be less necessary (at least initially).

 

Why can't a chapter be a nice, normal, codex adherent chapter, with no need for a radical change?

 

They can. Sometimes they are, even. The Steel Dogs will be, when I get around to it, and the Stone Hearts more or less are. Hell, so are the Ice Lords (more or less). Even the Bronze Prophets aren't too far out.

 

However, explaining how a Chapter stopped being the Chapter they were originally part of and started being something unique often requires an explanation for that change. And the two easiest, most versatile, and thus most common methods of doing that are single charismatic figure and disaster that greatly damages the Chapter. Just because it's a good method doesn't mean it's not a cliche, and vice versa. People need to try a little harder with it, IMO.

 

What is there to clarify? Don't grab more veterans than usual. I'm not sure what else there is to say.

 

As in what? Don't claim your chapter's more elite than everyone else? Don't claim you have a larger veteran company?

 

Still... I don't know, I just don't like bright colors. This is grimdarkness, people, not pretty marines!

 

Colors have only the inherent meanings we give them, and yellow's plenty scary on an eight foot monster with a chainsaw sword.

[Ferrata]

I think, Ferrata, that the fact you spend so much time in Liber may be misleading you. Every chapter I have started as a color scheme first, and was then coupled to an idea. The Stone Hearts' color scheme predates even their identity as the Stone Hearts by years. The Ice Lords are at least two years younger than their scheme. And so on. The colors of a chapter are their most visible identifying feature, and will often be what was first decided upon. It will likely be painted anything from ten to a hundred times. Sometimes more. It is very, very important.

I think, Octavulg, you are incorrect - I have not become mislead because I have read so many chapters. All I said was that a scheme was not important to the quality of the chapter, which it is not. I did not say anything about the creation of a chapter and whether the scheme is an early part or a later addition. The Wings of Death had their scheme maybe a year before I had the name, but in the same way, the Disciples of Man had a fullout background before they recieved a scheme. All I originally stated for reasons that, in the background, chapters might choose red and black more often than other colours. And then, I went on to say that I do not agree that it should be in any article about cliches as I think it is insignificant to a chapter.

[Ferrata]

Moderator Post

I've seperated this from my user-post above, as I wanted this to be towards everyone and not just those who I was discussing issues with. There are a number of these Guides popping up of late, and I am not going to say they are bad ideas and bad things to be happening, I want more people to write Guides to help people. That being said, they need to be written in a manner that not only offers the advice in a welcoming way, but the information needs to be well thought out and non-confrontational. There are a large number of posters who dislike the ideas of Guides as they believe they either stifle the creativity of writers, and/or we, the writer of the Guide and Liber as a whole, have no right to tell others what they can or cannot do. We've had this discussion many times, especially when creating the original Guide (when it was penned by Rogue Trader and Aurelius Rex), and overtime I have shifted the language to suit how I feel the information should be portrayed. If you read the Guide now, like it always has, there are only two rules, the rest are guidelines. I hope that none of the points come across as rude or uninformative (maybe a couple could do with a new wording).

 

To be honest, I am tempted to close this thread because I can't see where it is going bar an endless cycle of arguments about things, that in the end, don't really matter. Octavulg and Dark Apostle Thirst may believe that red and black colour schemes are cliches and should be avoided like the plague. Others will not. Neither party is right, and neither party is wrong. I'm not going to, as I hope this could evolve into a useful and productive discussion but everyone needs to keep their tones nice and pleasent. So, from now on, can we keep replies to friendly discussion that doesn't involve text shouting or condescending "tones".

 

You have been warned.

[Ace Debonair]

I personally do not give a rat's hindquarters what colour someone else chooses to make their chapter. I dislike certain things in a colour scheme, but since I am not one to discourage people from playing or writing an army they think looks cool, there is no need for me to discuss those things.

 

Ace, don't go all "beautiful flower" on me now...

 

Personally, if people don't like the color scheme my chapter is using, I'll likely change it (within the boundaries of what I want for that chapter's scheme). This goes for a lot of things about an IA. Indeed, that's a large part of why people come here (I assume). They want help making their IA better in their own eyes, and in the eyes of others. Certainly, the frequently expressed desire to get into the Librarium suggests that what other people think matters a lot.

 

I just find the idea of criticizing people's choice of colour scheme in this way to be silly. A mass of black and red marines is boring to you, and that's fine. Brightly coloured marines look out-of-place to DAT. That's cool. I just find the idea of flat-out telling people not to use colours is redundant. If everyone suddenly starts making purple chapters because of this advice, we are back on square one, which is why on your guide I suggested rewording the section that dealt with the same issue.

 

It's my opinion that the sudden urge to rant and rave about the problems with DIY-ing needs to be quelled, ASAP, and we should just get on with things and help people go in different directions from the cliches when they suggest them.

 

Sudden? I sent Ferrata a PM complaining about half this stuff back when I rewrote that section in the DIY Guide!

 

Also, to a certain extent, the point of this forum is to (politely) rant and rave to individuals about the problems with their DIYing. Trying to compile frequent ravings into a more organized form so that they are both more useful and possibly better understood is hardly out of keeping with business as usual here.

 

Hmm, alright, I might have got my rant on a little there. Sorry about that. :P

But seriously, I've been here since last summer and it's only in latter-half of January when people got the urge to make a big deal of this. At least, in this fashion. I've personally been swearing at my monitor over people's dumb repitition of ideas for quite some time, but at least you can't hear me. (I hope)

 

Hell, if we all had a little manifesto about how we think DIYing should be done, it'd actually be kind of interesting and would probably make some of our biases more clear.

Count me out of this idea, then. :D I suspect I would use equal or greater vehemence to the guides already posted, and just doing so on this one issue has, in retrospect, made me look a tad immature.

Equally validly, I haven't really got anything to add in a guide that hasn't been said already. :P

[Octavulg]

I just find the idea of criticizing people's choice of colour scheme in this way to be silly. A mass of black and red marines is boring to you, and that's fine. Brightly coloured marines look out-of-place to DAT. That's cool. I just find the idea of flat-out telling people not to use colours is redundant. If everyone suddenly starts making purple chapters because of this advice, we are back on square one, which is why on your guide I suggested rewording the section that dealt with the same issue.

 

Indeed, and some rewording is probably best. However, he's right - it is a cliche. And I'm right - a disproportionate number of chapters use those colors, and avoiding them is an easy path to a more unique color scheme.

 

Hmm, alright, I might have got my rant on a little there. Sorry about that. laugh.gif

But seriously, I've been here since last summer and it's only in latter-half of January when people got the urge to make a big deal of this. At least, in this fashion. I've personally been swearing at my monitor over people's dumb repitition of ideas for quite some time, but at least you can't hear me. (I hope)

 

I've been here since 2007, man! And that's just when I put up the Ice Lords after someone got all snippy about how I hadn't written an IA, and yet I was telling people they could do things differently.

 

Still haven't seen one from him. Remind me to PM him later. ;)

 

EDIT: I created the document I typed the guide up in on December 8th. /EDIT

 

Count me out of this idea, then. laugh.gif I suspect I would use equal or greater vehemence to the guides already posted, and just doing so on this one issue has, in retrospect, made me look a tad immature.

Equally validly, I haven't really got anything to add in a guide that hasn't been said already. tongue.gif

 

I don't mean a list of things not to do. I mean an explanation of how we see IAs, what we expect in them, and what methods we, personally, use to ensure a good result in our writing and creation.

[Angelfire]

So much impolite yelling in here. =X

 

To the original post:

 

I don't think red and black color schemes are particularly bad. You can't say that they're overdone, because *every* color has been done before. It's like saying space marine armies are overdone (which they are, relative to any other other army in wargaming history). And yes, you are being hypocritical. A chapter's colors are probably the first thing that would be noticed by another player, and a player has the right to choose colors he enjoys during his/her army design without being bullied upon by people for having the same colors as they do.

 

Most of the things you've described as being cliche are cliche because they are either cool and desirable, or because they are good.

 

I don't see anything wrong with being inspired by someone else's well composed ideas.

 

Finally, the last five or six "guide" posts written on this forum have been needlessly condescending in an environment that's supposed to promote creativity. If you want to whine about someone else's little fictional plastic men, go do it elsewhere. These consistent outbursts (which have nothing new to say from one to another, unsurprisingly) are unpleasant, and sorta makes me want to leave B&C again.

 

When Sigismund Himself says "Be Nice!," he's talking to you.

 

Hmm, alright, I might have got my rant on a little there. Sorry about that.

But seriously, I've been here since last summer and it's only in latter-half of January when people got the urge to make a big deal of this. At least, in this fashion. I've personally been swearing at my monitor over people's dumb repitition of ideas for quite some time, but at least you can't hear me. (I hope)

 

I think almost everybody's noticed this. A lot of people have been encouraged to write IAs by the new Gauntlet Challenge that started in January who would otherwise have not published their IA. More new IA writers means a little more people with less experience with this part of the forums, its expectations, and considered "cliches", and a noticeable decrease in post quality. It's disappointing that this new creativity has to be ranted on by others who write the same "cliches" and legitimize themselves by being "better."

 

-Angelfire

[Octavulg]

Angelfire:

So much impolite yelling in here. =X

 

All of it done by people other than the original poster, I note.

 

You can't say that they're overdone, because *every* color has been done before.

 

...What?

 

The definition of overdone would be done so much more than the other colors that it has become trite and cliched. When almost 40% of official chapter use either red or black, they've officially hit the point where they're overdone. Especially when you add in the DIY community's affection for both.

 

It's like saying space marine armies are overdone (which they are, relative to any other other army in wargaming history).

 

So we can say they're overdone? Pick a side! :P

 

A chapter's colors are probably the first thing that would be noticed by another player, and a player has the right to choose colors he enjoys during his/her army design without being bullied upon by people for having the same colors as they do.

 

Yeah. I'm so bitter about my red and black chapter not being unique. Oh wait... ;)

 

I think we have a right to tell that player that a lot of people do black and/or red chapters, and that if he wants to stand out he would be wise to do it in a unique fashion.

 

Most of the things you've described as being cliche are cliche because they are either cool and desirable, or because they are good.

 

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Being 'cool' is not necessarily a good thing. Cool works fine until everyone does it, at which point it becomes trite and boring. The individuality of cool is one of its greatest attractions.

 

As I (and the OP) have said - it's not that you can't use cliches. It's that everyone does, so doing it in an impressive or good way is a lot harder.

 

Are you going to take Ferrata to task for the section of the DIY Guide that says the same thing?

 

I don't see anything wrong with being inspired by someone else's well composed ideas.

 

There is nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with using those ideas without exerting any particular effort to make them unique or different.

 

Finally, the last five or six "guide" posts written on this forum have been needlessly condescending in an environment that's supposed to promote creativity.

 

Pointing out the trends and cliches of IA writing is hardly working against creativity.

 

I think almost everybody's noticed this. A lot of people have been encouraged to write IAs by the new Gauntlet Challenge that started in January who would otherwise have not published their IA.

 

Alternately, I started writing mine back in December, and coincidence is an amazing thing.

 

* * *

Ferrata:

I think, Octavulg, you are incorrect - I have not become mislead because I have read so many chapters. All I said was that a scheme was not important to the quality of the chapter, which it is not.

 

I disagree. A poor scheme can make an otherwise good chapter seem silly, and a good one often improve a chapter that is otherwise lacking. It will not change a chapter, but it can influence people's perception of that chapter.

 

I did not say anything about the creation of a chapter and whether the scheme is an early part or a later addition. The Wings of Death had their scheme maybe a year before I had the name, but in the same way, the Disciples of Man had a fullout background before they recieved a scheme.

 

Uh, Ferrata? I was explaining why the color scheme was an important part of a chapter by pointing out how it's often the first thing people choose about the chapter, using myself as an example.

 

To many people, schemes are important. They may not be to you, but personally I exert a reasonable amount of effort attempting to ensure that my chapter's name and color scheme are relatively unique and unusual. Part of why I use violet and powder blue. :P

 

All I originally stated for reasons that, in the background, chapters might choose red and black more often than other colours. And then, I went on to say that I do not agree that it should be in any article about cliches as I think it is insignificant to a chapter.

 

They might. But colors are chosen in the real world, and often people want their chapter to stand out in the real world. Painting them red or black hinders this.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

For everything this simple little guide I made (that I thought no-one would notice) generated, WOW.

 

I think I just got kicked by Angelfire then picked back up by Octavulg.

 

And warned by Ferratta. Your post was not ignored, my friend!

 

 

 

Anyways...

 

Well, I think I will have to say this ONE MORE TIME! This is a guide for beginners, and it being a guide you can take it or leave it; it's just advice. If youd don't like it then ignore what I said and continue making IAs as you see fit, I shall not come over to your Ia and tell you your force is cliched. That is simply rude, and I would not be worth listening to in the first place if I did such things. Thus, I do not.

 

To brotherhood, Liberites.