LordGates Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 So, I was looking into possibly putting together an Alpha Legion army, and I was wondering. Do you guys think they are still loyal, like at the end of Legion, or do you believe that they have become true renegades and chaos worshipers? I am leaning towards having succumbed to the whispers of the dark gods after ten thousand years of battle against the imperium, but that is just me. The idea of them still being loyal sound kind of ridiculous to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkana Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 "Of the fabulous hydra it is said, cut off one head and two will grow in its place." It's a well known fact that the Alpha Legion are some of the sneakiest, confusing renegades the forty first millenium has ever, and will ever, see. With the events of Legion, it seems that everything we have been told about the children of Alpharius is a lie. Or, the events on Nurth were just misinformation to make you think the Alphas are still loyal. When the Alpha Legion is mentioned, no one really knows what to believe. On one side, there are those who believe the Alpha Legion are still loyal. After being warned of the events that would come to pass by the Cabal on Eolith, the Alpha Legion made the decision to side with Horus to destroy Chaos. The Emperor would be cast down and Horus would reign for a few generations, before he wiped out the entire human race. The death of the human race would also be the death of Chaos, and the other species in the galaxy would live on without the threats in the warp haunting them. However, something happened during the Heresy that the Cabal didn't see, and Horus was killed, his soul annihilated by the Emperor as his strength left his body. This was the second prediction the Cabal saw. The Emperor would be victorious, and humanity would be doomed to ten, twenty thousand years of misery before Chaos rose to power. The Alpha Legion, still loyal to the Emperor, continued to attack the Imperium in the hopes of bringing about the first prediction, leading to the attack on Eskrador. Guilliman either a. killed Alpharius, b. killed Omegon, or c. killed a random marine, allowing both Primarchs to escape. After this, the Alpha Legion seemed to splinter into various warbands. It is possible that they still serve the Emperor, but it is much more likely that they have fallen to the force they once sought to destroy. On the other side, there are those who believe that the Alpha Legion turned traitor. Their loyalty to Horus and their eagerness to prove themselves to the other legions led them to pledge themselves to Horus' cause. After the Warmaster's death, the Legion continued to attack the Imperium that had made them outcasts. They eventually fought their way to Eskrador, where they clashed with the Ultramarines. Any of the three events above could have happened, but after Eskrador, the Legion separated, each leader pursuing their own goals. Some have risen to become Daemon Princes, while other still disdain the use of warp entities, relying instead on their tactics to achieve victory rather than the use of the warp. So, is the Legion loyal, or are they traitors? People seem to only believe in one side or the other, but is it so hard to believe in both sides? Whatever happened on Eskrador caused the Legion to disband. The Alpha Legion were trained to think independently, so it's entirely possible that, even if they were warned by the Cabal, some would end up using chaos as a tool to destroy chaos(fighting fire with fire) while others stuck to more traditional methods. Of course, some would be corrupted as a result of playing with the warp, but that would be inevitable if the Alpha Legion sided with the Warmaster of Chaos. Others, however, would stay true to the Primarch's original plan. It is my personal belief that after Eskrador, the Alpha Legion's hate for the Imperium either started, or was made stronger. They split into warbands to continue their fight against, well, everyone. They didn't seem to be welcomed by the forces of Chaos, and the Imperium definitely didn't want to take them back. Aliens are...aliens, so they wouldn't ally with them, either. Are the Alpha Legion loyal? No, of course not. The existence of Alpha Legion Daemon Princes and mutated Legionairres, along with their history of wars with the Imperium, makes it obvious that some, if not all, Legionairres no longer serve the Emperor or the Imperium. Are they traitors? No, they aren't. Not all of them, at least. The Alpha Legion rarely, if ever, takes part in Abaddon's schemes, or the campaigns of other Chaos lords. They don't use daemons, and the number of AL Daemon Princes is extremely low compared to other traitor legions. Their cries of 'For the Emperor' could be a sign of their true allegiance, or at least the allegiance of that particular warband. The Alpha Legion are the only truely independent legion. They've proven that they don't need Chaos by staying out of the Eye of Terror and other major Chaos hideouts, and they've proven that they don't need the Imperium just by surviving ten thousand years on their own after the Heresy. They do what they want, when they want, and how they want to, and no god can tell them otherwise. They've done things their own way for longer than any other legion. Even before Horus decided to turn, they fought the way they thought was best, despite what the other Primarchs(Guilliman) thought about their methods. What I'm trying to say is, if you want to make an AL warband that's traitorous/loyal/whatever, don't let people tell you, "The Alpha Legion are loyal/traitor! It says so in Legion/their IA!" The Alpha Legion are whatever you want them to be for your background. tl;dr version: Do what you want. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer216 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's made even more complicated by the fact that it would be extremely surprising if the Alpha Legion actually bought the Cabal's story entirely. After all, they think for themselves and Space Marines are for humanity, not life in general. Also bear in mind that the acuity is alien sorcery and the xenos by their own admission hold humanity in contempt. However, this of course does leave a big chance for Tzeentch to leap in and meddle with things, so it still comes down to your own personal interpretation, unless Dan Abnett decides to write another Alpha Legion novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 DAMN YOU ABNETT!!!!! < shakes fist at sky > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGates Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 I would also think it plausible that Alpharius did not actually tell his marines as to why they sided with Horus, aside from proving themselves, etc etc. So while Alpharius may have been fighting for the Emperor, the remnants of his legion are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's made even more complicated by the fact that it would be extremely surprising if the Alpha Legion actually bought the Cabal's story entirely. After all, they think for themselves and Space Marines are for humanity, not life in general. Also bear in mind that the acuity is alien sorcery and the xenos by their own admission hold humanity in contempt. However, this of course does leave a big chance for Tzeentch to leap in and meddle with things, so it still comes down to your own personal interpretation, unless Dan Abnett decides to write another Alpha Legion novel. He wasn't fighting for life, he was fighting to end Chaos... one of the emperors biggest aims. He didn't care if all the other Xeno got wiped out. Or at least that is how I perceived it when I read the book. However I agree that it's complicated. Was that his true intention, was the cabal telling the truth (as far as it knew), did the chaos gods play them all? With the Alpha legion I would say most certainly that they fight the Imperium. I would also say they work with chaos (other legions for example) and that some of them may worship chaos themselves. On the other hand they were brought up to think for themselves so some might still be loyal... Then again they may not be loyal or worship chaos ;) anything goes with the Alpha legion and that is one of the great things about them... the mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 well it doesnt really matter per se , if AL wants to destroy all humans to calm the warp or enslave humanity under the rule of chaos gods . Both mean a very bad end for the human race , both sooner or later end with every human dead. Just because there is a chance they are not slave to the chaos gods [NL are not too , doesnt change the fact that they are maniac killers] , it doesnt make the loyalist or even on the side of human race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I'll try to make this short. If you don't agree, then just ignore it. There may be some spoilers ahead. At the beginning of Legion, there was a quote by Alpharius: "War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." This is a variation of "survival of the fittest" applied to the galaxy, where the constant state of warfare culls the weak and breeds strong races. Alpharius saw this as an immutable law of the universe, and for this reason he disagreed with the Emperor and his Utopian ideal for the galaxy. Alpharius and his legion were known for their pragmatism and unconventional methods of thinking and warfare, and that defines the Alpha Legion. You have to apply this knowledge when considering what drives Alpharius and his legion, and what choices they would make when the Heresy came to pass. Here's the part I think most will disagree with, but the Cabal was not lying to Alpharius Omegon. The Acuity was not a trick or some kind of device to turn them to Chaos. The Acuity was 100% accurate. What they were shown DOES come to pass. Read it over again carefully if you don't believe me. The Cabal TOLD Alpharius Omegon that if Horus won, Chaos would consume humanity and burn itself out - this was not part of the Acuity. They wanted the Alpha Legion to sacrifice humanity to spare the galaxy. The alternative was a slow stagnation, of Chaos slowly but surely destroying the galaxy in a perpetual war as seen in the Acuity. This is the 41st millennium as we all know it. So Alpharius Omegon had a choice. The twin primarchs looked at each other and said they knew what had to be done. They give the Cabal the idea that they'll go along with the plan to help Horus win because the Emperor would want Chaos defeated, but THEY'RE LYING. How do I know? Well we all know that Horus loses, that's the biggest tell. Also, they don't agree with the Emperor's plan for a galactic Utopia, so why would they care if the Emperor would want chaos destroyed to avoid untold millennia of warfare? Remember, "War is simply the galaxy's hygiene." Why kill off the entire human race so a bunch of aliens can have a free ride? That's not very pragmatic when it comes to the survival of your species. So, to sum this up and get back to the topic at hand, here's what I think the Alpha Legion are up to. Alpharius Omegon knew what had to be done: they had to ensure the survival of the human race. Chaos could not be destroyed without destroying humanity in the process, making it a necessary evil. Chaos needed humanity, and humanity needed Chaos. It's that simple. So the part the Alpha Legion played during the Heresy and ever since is to play each side against the other. Their secret machinations that seem to make no sense are all centered around perpetuating an eternal war where neither Chaos nor the Imperium can win, all to ensure the survival of the human race. Loyal or Traitor? I guess the answer is both. Loyal to humanity and themselves, but embracing Chaos as a necessary component of human survival. Complicated yet simple, and very pragmatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer216 Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Some good points there, Brother Aristeo, One of the more complicated ideas I had regarding the Alpha Legion in the 41st millenium, which might tie in with your idea, is that given the Chaos Gods are essentially "sustainably farming" the galaxy for emotions and belief, the Alpha Legion might be actually interferring with such efforts by winning victories for Chaos that screw up the overall game plan. Another point about the acuity. As I recall, the main issue was that if Horus was defeated, the Emperor would be placed on the Golden Throne and when he eventually tires and dies finally, it means the triumph of Chaos. It might conceivably be the case that the Alpha Legion are looking to do something to prevent this from happening, which raises the question of what would happen if a Primarch were to be placed on the throne... Ironically, I believe that the Alpha Legion are actually the greatest threat to the Imperium, given that they are most capable of pulling off a "9/11" style attack, involving hijacking or destroying every Black Ship in the Imperium at once. If they did this, the Astronomicon would fail and the Emperor would starve to death. If you buy into the Star God theory, such an attack actually might be the best hope of humanity, but of course that conflicts with the acuity and the current "ultra-grim-dark" vibe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpWhisper Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 The whole original question depends on your definition of 'loyal'. Do you think that the Imperium of Man as portrayed in the Warhammer 40K setting is in itself true to the Emperor's vision of humanity's greatest possible role in the galaxy? Personally I don't; in my mind, the Imperium itself has evolved into a dark perversion of what it was intended to be, and as such, loyalty to the institution as it stands in the 41st millenium does not equate to the same as loyalty to the Emperor and his beliefs before he was installed into the Golden Throne. In short the AL might well still be loyal to the Emperor; it's the Imperium itself that has turned traitor to his original ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I agree that the Imperium has definitely moved away from what the Emperor had intended. It's funny the role that Lorgar played in this with writing the Lectitio Divinitatus and creating a religion based around worship of the Emperor. Religion has blinded the people of the Imperium in the 41st millennium, making them ignorant and backwards... but it has also provided a good base for shielding them against Chaos. It also makes them diametrically opposed to Chaos, which plays a huge part in a never-ending war between the Imperium and Chaos. As far as loyalty to the Emperor goes, I don't think Alpharius was ever truly loyal to the Emperor. He clearly wasn't loyal to the Emperor's ideals, viewing Utopia as a fantasy. So if Alpharius wasn't fighting for the Emperor's cause, was he a loyal follower? I don't think it's in his character to follow so blindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpWhisper Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 As far as loyalty to the Emperor goes, I don't think Alpharius was ever truly loyal to the Emperor. He clearly wasn't loyal to the Emperor's ideals, viewing Utopia as a fantasy. So if Alpharius wasn't fighting for the Emperor's cause, was he a loyal follower? I don't think it's in his character to follow so blindly. Nice to see you around again, Aristeo :) But I'm not so sure on this last bit; I thought that Alpharius was conducting his part in the Great Crusade through loyalty to the Emperor, whilst understanding that the ultimate goal was futile; if he was neither following the Emperor's lead nor invested in the creation of the Imperium of Man, then what exactly was he doing pre-heresy? Why lead the Legion at all, and just decline to fight alongside/for the Emperor in the first place; slipping unseen into the shadows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thanks WW, it's nice to be around again. I drift away from time to time, but my interest in the Alpha Legion always keeps me coming back. ;) I've wondered a lot about Alpharius Omegon's motivations while serving the Emperor (big surprise, right?). He was found by Horus only a few decades before the end of the Great Crusade, meaning he had been on his own for somewhere around 150 years. He had already developed his own outlook on life and his own brand of warfare during that time. He spent a lot of time with Horus but next to no time with the Emperor. He wasn't close to any of the other Primarchs and he clearly didn't get along with Guilliman. Finally, he was given a brand new legion of Astartes that some have said being the last Legion, was the pinnacle of the Emperor's design. What was Alpharius going to do with a Legion of deadly warriors made in his very image that followed only his command? Alpharius did what was in his nature and took a pragmatic approach to his new situation. I'm sure by this point, at least one of the two lost Legions had been... deleted. Regardless of the reason or what actually transpired, Alpharius didn't want this to happen to the Alpha Legion. So while he probably had no interest in joining the Great Crusade or following the Emperor, he did so because it allowed him to keep his Legion and provided a testing ground for trying out his own brand of warfare with his new troops. Since they could never hope to achieve the number of victories any of the other Legions had accumulated, Alpharius took a quality over quantity approach and the Alpha Legion's hallmark became their martial prowess. In a broader sense, Alpharius may have seen that at the time, serving the Emperor was in the best interests of the human race. But I really think that what motivated Alpharius was the opportunity to work with his Legion and develop it into what he believed to be the ideal fighting force. I don't think he was in any way motivated by a sense of loyalty to the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpWhisper Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Interesting..... Maybe then, following your line of reasoning, the incident with the Cabal did nothing more than provide a reason or excuse to 'strike out' on his own, away from the 'control' of the Emperor, and begin to follow his own agenda, using the disruption of the Heresy to hide his actual goals? Don't know how true that rings, though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Warp: like me, I know you've taken part in quite a few of these threads over time, and a lot of different theories have been thrown around. I've come up with quite a few theories myself, but none of them really seemed to completely work. It's weird because I had given up on it like a year ago, and then the other day this just happened to occur to me out of nowhere. Now there's a lot of fluff in the 40K universe and I don't claim to know it all, but this theory and the fluff seem to mesh together pretty well. For instance, it's been mentioned that Alpharius had a hand in planning the Drop Site Massacre at Istvaan. Beyond that, there were a number of things that happened during the Heresy that were unexplained yet pivotal moments in deciding the final outcome: the Ultramarines were stuck on the other side of the galaxy unable to help, some Loyalists received help from an unknown ally, and out of nowhere the shields on Horus's ship dropped so that the Emperor could teleport aboard, just to name a few. It seems as though there was a lot of string pulling going on behind the scenes to ensure a certain outcome, and we know that only the Alpha Legion knew anything about the Heresy beforehand. This theory also works really well when applied to the Alpha Legion's actions post-heresy all the way into the 41st millennium. After Horus was defeated, the majority of the Alpha Legion didn't go to the Eye of Terror with the rest of the traitors, but went about its own business inside the Imperium. Everyone wonders what the AL is up to and who's directing them to do all the weird things that they do because from the outside looking in, it doesn't make sense. But if their mission is to perpetuate a constant war, they could lose their Primarch(s) and still be able to carry on this mission in a variety of different ways without needing orders to come from the top down. All the splinter groups hidden around the galaxy need to do is make use of their huge network of cultists and operatives to keep tabs on all the happenings in the Imperium and pull strings when necessary. Meanwhile, those Alpha Legionnaires that reside inside the Eye of Terror can keep tabs on the rest of the Traitor Legions and pull strings there as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpWhisper Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I suspect your avatar has hypnotised me, as I think that your last statement makes complete sense... and I have a strange compulsion to end each sentance with a hisssss. Like that hisssss. See, hisssss? :lol: Although, do you think it's possible for our opinions to be objective, based on our fanboy nature, hisssss? As I was thinking, yeah that sounds like the Alpharius/Alpha Legion I know and love (woah, steady on there WW!), but is that because I want it to be true? Oh, sorry, hisssss ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Yeah, we are biassssssed. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 LordGates: I've been wondering what you think about all this since you started the thread. Any thoughts? I'm also curious as to why you're interested in the Alpha Legion since you're sporting a World Eaters avatar. What piqued your interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 The alpha legion have the scope to be whatever you want. My personal opinion is that they no longer fight for the emperor. How can you be loyal to the emperor when you intend to exterminate your own race to defeat your greatest enemy. That is the best they can be. At worst they fight for selfish desires and/or a dedication to the chaos gods. (what mine fight for) Also I hate that Alpharius has a twin. It just feels tacked on. I really liked the message of the Hydra which was in the IA though. Alpharius dies but his legion isn't even concerned and goes on to win. Yes the IA is vague and I too used to think of it just as misinformation. But there is an elegance to the IA. That much like the Night Haunter Alpharius ethos and tactics are vindicated in death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGates Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 LordGates: I've been wondering what you think about all this since you started the thread. Any thoughts? I'm also curious as to why you're interested in the Alpha Legion since you're sporting a Word Bearers avatar. What piqued your interest? Curiosity I suppose. I believe that after ten thousand years of fighting, any loyalist intentions have long since gone out the window. The reason why I was checking though is because I am writing a story that is more in depth on the Alpha Legion post heresy, and it is going to be a novel based on the infiltration and destruction of the Emperor's Swords and their homeworlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Yogi: The 2nd edition Chaos codex got me hooked on the Alpha Legion, and when the IA came out in White Dwarf I was ecstatic. I take pretty good care of my magazines, but that issue is really worn out. I agree about Omegon, like he existed just to give the book a crazy twist. The whole twin thing really needed to be fleshed out more. Maybe it will be in another book. I think that it could have a lot potential though. It makes me wonder why the AL symbol is a hydra. Did Alpharius get his head cut off and wake up with a twin or something? There's something weird up with that because the Emperor isn't aware of Omegon, so where did he come from? LordGates: Alright, yeah that was a nifty story they had in the new codex. Are you going to post your novel here on the B&C? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGates Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 I do not even plan on addressing the Primarchs in my story, so that aspect is not a big deal. Though I do think the idea of one Primarch split into two is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpWhisper Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 The reason why I was checking though is because I am writing a story that is more in depth on the Alpha Legion post heresy, and it is going to be a novel based on the infiltration and destruction of the Emperor's Swords and their homeworlds. Maybe you should have the Alpha Legion disguised as Necrons! ;) Ha; take that, GW fluff inconsistency! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGates Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 Well I planned on writing the story regardless, because I think that at this point a majority of the Alpha Legion are no longer loyal. Whether they like it or not, they are all pawns of the dark gods, and I intended on writing it as such. I just wanted to see what other people's thoughts were haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aristeo Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Aren't we all just pawns of the Dark Gods? :P I want Alpha Legion disguised as Jokaero, or maybe Hrud... Space Skaven style, not that bendy arm crap they cooked up a few years back. Elaborate on the Primarch split in two thing being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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