Alpha Legion

[Hellios]

Sorry for the off topic, but I have seen the "10,000 year old Salamander" argument being raised before, and now I had the chance to browse through that book and see what that is all about.

 

Well if salamander is anything to go by astartes can live 10,000 years

Disregarding for a moment that it is a Black Library novel and the reply would therefor by default be "it isn't", it turns out there may have been warp storms involved. And as everyone knows warp storms mess with time and space consistency. I think it was not so much the ship of the Salamander in question that got stuck in the warp as that there were warp storms all around the world his ship crash landed on 10,000 years ago. He himself mentions that "there was a storm" when the other Marines ask him how he ended up there.

The others seem to be perplexed that there is a Marine that might have liverd that long, and when he is approached by one of the Apothecaries in the end, the following phrase is uttered: "By the laws of nature, the ancient Salamander should not still be alive."

 

In conclusion, I would not consider that a challenge to the repeatedly in the background refered to limited lifespan of Space Marines of a few hundred years.

 

Maybe but when your lifespan is limited by when you get shot in the head, hacked apart or eaten... that is hardly conclusive either.

[Legatus]

If one of their physical traits over normal humans is described as living for hundreds of years then that is pretty conclusive in and off itself. Then you add the Blood Angels background which states that Blood Angels have an increased lifespan over regular Marines due to their gene curse and that it is not uncommon that they get a thousand years old. There are further references such as the mentioning of several exceptionally "old" Space Marines, who do not just have more years under their than the others but also start to exhibit signs of extreme aging (the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines explained that Marines gnerally don't start showing such signs untill they are about 300 years old) on the one hand and on the life increasing effetcs of the warp (as in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion) on the other.

[Plague Angel]

I thought it was pretty cut and dry that Alpharius chose to side with Horus in order to actually fight for the Emperor.

That is what I got out of it.

I didn't think it was at all that cut and dry. It's been a little bit since I read Legion so I don't remember the exact quotes, but I do remember the intense mind-screw I felt when I finished the book. So here's what I remember confidently.

 

*The Cabal tells Alpharius, if you stay loyal to the Emperor, then situation A will happen.

*But if you fight for Horus, then situation B will happen instead.

 

I remember reading the prophecy several times, trying to figure it out, because neither situation matched what the galaxy is like in the 41st millennium. "The Alpha Legion has always fought for the Emperor" is pretty ambiguous because the prophecy is such a Catch-22. The two possibilities I saw where that, if the Alpha Legion fought for Horus to save the Emperor, then they're still "loyal" to the Emperor which means they aren't really fighting "for" Horus and the universe looped around and the prophecy basically got broken. Or, the Alpha Legion considered that possibility and so consciously chose to "break" the prophecy and purposefully create Situation C, the 41st millennium we all know and love. Either way, the end of Situation C looks bleaker than either A or B, not just for humanity, but the entire galaxy.

 

Even at the end of Legion, the Alpha Legion's loyalties to anyone but each other were, I thought, incredibly ambiguous. I was very impressed that a 40k novel could leave me that intrigued about metaphysics, and it's what's made me a fan of Abnett.

[Candleshoes]

My 2 cents on the Alpha Legion being composed of mainly 10,000 year old pre-heresy Marines:

 

This is directly out of Index Astartes II pg 37

 

"At the time when the First Founding Chapters were created, the Emperor himself oversaw the process of transfering gene-seed from Primarch to Space Marine."

 

This does not happen anymore obviously. The point simply is, biologically, a 30k marine is not the same as a 40k marine, far from it. Too much knowledge was lost in the power struggle.

 

At the peak of genetic manipulation, where the creation of legionaries were overseen directly by the Emperor, there is no reason to not believe that 10,000 years of ageing would not affect the marines of the 20th Legion. Long life, or "Immortality" would not have been an issue then, as the Legions themselves lived to die (in combat).

 

There is also no accounting for the factor of "Warp Time" which exists as an external factor concerning millenia of travel time from operation to operation, as well as time spent in warp concealed locations. They live existence moving from one fight/campaign/uprising/operation to the next ... with years of traveling (which in ship time would be seen as a handful of days), so saying they are alive for 100 centuries may be correct on a calendar, but the reality would be much... much ... much shorter of a span to the Alpha Legionairies.

 

This is how guardsmen may take part in 30+ years of campaigning, and only physically age 4 or 5 years, the total amount of time they retain in reality while fighting, not while in transit or in warp fields. Ex - I'm 24 when joining the "X" campaign as an imperial guardsman, which lasts 40 calendar years (I serve 5 years in combat during it, and spent 1 year of "ship" time in transit). Reality says I am now 64, when in fact, my body is only 30 years old.

 

Of course, we also have record of them recruiting directly from Imperial planets and we know that they would have retained most of their gene replicating potential via the survivors of the final battles of the Heresy (due to secrecy and self containment).

 

My take sees them having many (30-60%) of the original 10,000 year old veterans, with replacements created when the need for them arises in the operational areas, much like the Night Lords operate.

[Legatus]

At the peak of genetic manipulation, where the creation of legionaries were overseen directly by the Emperor, there is no reason to not believe that 10,000 years of ageing would not affect the marines of the 20th Legion.

Other than perhaps the Index Astartes Ultramarines, according to which their geneseed is as pure and perfect today as it was at the times of Guilliman. They may have lost the Technology to change a grown man into a Space Marine, and the organs now have to grow into the developing aspirant, but there is no indication that the 30K Space Marines had special traits that the 40K Marines have lost.

 

There may be 10,000 year old Alpha Legionnaires. It will probably be mainly those that have made stronger pacts with the dark powers than the rest of the Legion.

[Brother Aristeo]

I was more curious about the NOW aspect of Alpha Legion. 10,000 years later, are we still good or bad? I am willing to bet it is fractured at this point.

I've heard this a lot, that the Alpha Legion must be broken into Loyalist and Traitor factions. Thing is, there's nothing in the background to suggest this is the case. While Alpha Legion forces working hidden in Imperial space have broken up into small splinter groups, the Legion's hallmark coordination is said to still be strongly at work. The Alpha Legion, even broken up and scattered across the galaxy, is as unified as ever.

 

As far as Alphas living in the Eye of Terror and those in real space... Some of the Alpha Legion retreated to the Eye while many stayed behind in Imperial space to strike from the myriad hidden bases they had across the galaxy. Arkos is indeed among those who reside in the Eye, and the Alpha Legion in real space do actively recruit new members.

[Rain]

I think the main issue isn't even being in the Eye or not, as remember that although in Soul Hunter the crew has only been around for a couple hundred years of "their time" there are other CSM out there that even in the warp have lived 10,000 years or even far longer.

 

The reason for this is either A.) Heresy era marines were created with better techniques and therefore made ageless or the more likely B.) Chaos imbues all of its champions (and even a rank and file marine is a champion compared to the teeming cultists and beasts) with agelessness as the "down payment" on the total immortality that daemonhood would provide. This would also make more sense as far as the whole call of chaos thing goes, all you have to do is sell your soul and you will be protected from death, at least that which comes from old age.

[Lay]

There are further references such as the mentioning of several exceptionally "old" Space Marines, who do not just have more years under their than the others but also start to exhibit signs of extreme aging (the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines explained that Marines gnerally don't start showing such signs untill they are about 300 years old)

And since the Great Crusade lasted about 200 years, it's no surprise that there were theories that Astartes might be immortal.

 

The reason for this is either A.) Heresy era marines were created with better techniques and therefore made ageless or the more likely B.) Chaos imbues all of its champions (and even a rank and file marine is a champion compared to the teeming cultists and beasts) with agelessness as the "down payment" on the total immortality that daemonhood would provide.

The latter is definitely the case, since many official descriptions of CSM say something along the line that "they have sworn themselves to the Dark Gods for power and immortality".

If Astartes were created as immortals, this gift would be redundant.

[LordGates]

I actually do recall reading that the older astartes were "better made", and were essentially immortal. I cannot tell you where though, it has been awhile since I have delved into said fluff.