LardO'Blood Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I was wondering if anyone has ever tried using the "fire and maneuver" strategy? Specifically having units back each other up, one moving 6 inches and running, the other providing support without movement (Heavy weapons can fire and rapid fire weapons at full range) and then switch the two back and forth? How effective has it been if you have used it? I am considering running my tactical squads like this, combat squading them so one combat squad may run and move while its backed up by the other part, this way heavy weapons are still helpful and its a mobile force. My plan would be to drop the ML/HB squad at an objective and have the two more "assaulty" squads work together (And eventually have one squad assault, the next turn the other squad assaults, giving a second charging bonus). I thought of this while reading some Necron Tactica on the GW website. Im guessing this more suited to Necrons/Tau/IG but would it work with space marines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 What you're describing is called a Tactical Retreat, and it works ok if you're combating an enemy that only knows how to attack your front and keeps your flanks unmolested. The tactic works best when you have the opportunity to channel your opponent's moves into a small corridor, with no option to disrupt your formations from the sides or behind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2268914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Well another good way to cover it is to have a solid block on your flank to hold it as you retreat that can move with your line- like a Vendread, or a Terminator squad with a CML. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2269172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spjaco Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Use Assault Squads to back up any units that may be close to table edges to make "Infiltrate" a dangerous proposition. Also pull those units closer into the table so the enemy would "appear" and get bogged down so you can counter their move before they get into assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2269522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LardO'Blood Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 I was considering advancing like this with two tactical squads, a venerable dreadnought on one flank, a terminator squad on the other and sternguard backed with LRC in the middle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2269857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 It can work... but Codex Marines simply arent the best- this kind of shield all advance works better for SWs and Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2270042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubatitan88 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I believe the tactic is called bounding overwatch.....or thats what they told me in infantry school, good real world tactic.......not so much gaming wise...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2270247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightguy Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I'm with tubatitan. Great in the real world, bad for most games, 40k particularly. Why you ask? Couple of reasons. In real life the overwatch (stationary) unit has several major advantages over the moving unit. 1. Ease of spotting. The stationary unit be it tank, infantry, whatever will be able to ID and engage targets more easily than the moving unit. Not in 40K where all spotting is automatic. 2. Opportunity fire. This is sort of a spotting offshoot. The overwatch unit, often being concealed, will get a first shot at an enemy unit moving to engage the maneuver unit. Not so in 40k. You can't interrupt an opponent's move to fire at it. 2. Accuracy. A stationary unit fires more accurately than a moving unit. This is sort of true in 40k. Some weapons can't fire at all on the move, but others are not hampered at all. This is a sort of. 3. Suppression. IRL the overwatch unit firing on enemy units will tend to get them to put their heads down allowing the maneuver unit to get to its destination unmolested. There really isn't this sort of morale effect in 40k. You either kill it before it shoots back or you don't. Suppression doesn't really happen. Another reason that 40k can be a lot of fun, but it's a bit rubbish as a realistic tactical simulation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2271089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LardO'Blood Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 It can work... but Codex Marines simply arent the best- this kind of shield all advance works better for SWs and Chaos. May I ask why SW's and Chaos work better? Maybe it is bounding overwatch, just read it was called that (Fire and maneuver) in some book about military history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2271402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 It can work... but Codex Marines simply arent the best- this kind of shield all advance works better for SWs and Chaos. May I ask why SW's and Chaos work better? Maybe it is bounding overwatch, just read it was called that (Fire and maneuver) in some book about military history. Simple- double special weapons. I can take my GHs and march them up the field, one squad shoots its plasmaguns at 24" while the other advances and can rapid fire to full effect. Tacticals on the other hand pay more for their units by a small margin, but that heavy weapon can only be used by one of the two squads- the stationairy one. Thus Codex Marines tend to do better with a static overwatch- such as a devastator squad or a couple tacticals- supporting an advancing spearhead- such as bikers, tacticals, or assault marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2271815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Yeah, unfortunately real-life infantry tactics don't work so well in 40K. Bounding overwatch just isn't effective on the tabletop. The whole point of it in real life is to suppress and eliminate the enemy while your maneuver element draws into kill range. There is no suppression of the enemy in 40K, especially in Fearless Fifth Edition. There are just too many armies with Fearless units now. The only way you could really attempt to replicate a bounding overwatch is by combining a pinning unit as your overwatch, and a fast mover as your bounder. Take a unit fo 10 Scout Snipers, place them in cover with Camo Cloaks, and push an Assault Squad forward onto the enemy. The pinning checks from sniper wounds have the potential to nullify opponent shooting for a turn, allowing the Assault Squad to get to grips unmolested. The problem is pinning enough of the enemy to make a difference. A real-life unit can split fire as much as they want. Not so in 40K. That 10-man sniper squad might pin a whole IG platoon, but the LRBT behind them can wipe the Assault Marines off the table while the Guardsmen cower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2272194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Actually, a few times I've had devastator squads "effectively suppress" a target...the target wants to stay out of the dev squad's firing lane, which can give other units I have a free run of that lane. Honestly if you have one unit sitting still for a "sort-of-overwatch" it may as well be a heavy (one that fires more effectively when it doesn't move anyway) and one that fires better on the move (e.g. tac squad can rapid fire) on the advance. Not a full-proof tactic, but it's worked for me before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2272209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatEscape_13 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Bounding overwatch just isn't effective on the tabletop. The whole point of it in real life is to suppress and eliminate the enemy while your maneuver element draws into kill range. There is no suppression of the enemy in 40K, especially in Fearless Fifth Edition. The critical comment being "especially in fifth edition". I remember the good old days of Overwatch, where units advancing in this way was a definite good strategy. Set up a fire lane, then use that protection to advance another unit for cover. Now not so much... Brings back good memories of editions past, however. Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/191199-fire-and-maneuver/#findComment-2289380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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