Chaplain or Librarian

[Br.Pat]

I have frequently fielded a Chaplain with my assault terminators and have naturally found the combination to be rather deadly. However, I have yet to try using a librarian in a tournament setting.

 

A librarian, while removing the close combat effectivness of a chaplain, does bring a number of benefits. This includes counterracting enemy psychic powers such as Lash and Fortune which are quite common in competitive army lists. Space Marines also have a number of psychic powers that compliment this unit including Null Zone, Smite and Avenger (forgot its name.. the flamer like power).

 

However, I am a bit concerned about the librarian's durability.

 

Also, just to clarify, I normally field my chaplian in a unit of 5 assault terminators in a Land Raider Crusader.

 

Can you please give me some advice?

[Jackelope King]

You need psychic defenses more than you need rerolls with an already dead-killy unit. I'd take a librarian (almost) every time. Plus, Null Zone is incredibly nice for taking on another rock-hard unit with invuln saves.

[Br.Pat]

Yeah... however if you are unlucky with rolls your 200 point unit could prove rather wasteful. The inclusion of a chaplian for rerolls alleviates that. However a librarian would probably be able to soften them up before the assault.

 

How would you suggest kitting the librarian out? I'm debating giving him terminator armour and a storm shield for defence... but that's expensive.

[Jackelope King]

I'd have no problem just leaving him naked. At 100 points, a librarian with a psychic hood and the Null Zone power is already pretty sweet. You get two excellent abilities to cover your bases against two huge threats: psykers (Space Wolves have some devastating powers, as do the new Nids and the old Eldar, and even IG Battle Psyker squads are nothing to sneeze at), and other rock-hard "killer" units (giving you an edge over another group of TH/SS terminators, or Nob Bikers, or a Seer Council). He's not a combat killing machine like some other HQs, but he covers your bases really well for a fairly low price tag.

 

If you have points to spare, a storm shield would be nice, so your whole squad is covered by 3++ saves, and to be fair, Terminator Librarians offer some really nice modeling opportunities. Sticking him in Terminator Armor and giving him a Storm Shield also lets you take Vortex of Doom for his other power, and then drop a S10AP1 pie plate before you charge in with the Terminators. Going Epistolary is another option, but also very pricey.

 

In the end, fewer upgrades are usually better if it lets you put more bodies and vehicles on the table. A Terminator Librarian lobbing out Vortecies of Doom is a neat little gimmick, but tends to get pricey really fast, and when you're already sending him in along a 200-point squad of Terminators inside a 250-point tank, that's starting to chew up a lot of your army list. If it were me, I'd want the points to spend on getting more Marines on the table, getting more of them transports. For instance, for the price of Epistolary, I could also have a Multimelta on my Land Raider (hello duality), a Rhino for another Tactical Squad (hello mech), and five points to... uh... well five points :)

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I like this topic. Helps me decide on what 2nd HQ to get rather than another Chaplain.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I say Libby for the same reasons as Jackalope, the Psy hood can be invaluable, and the powers don't have to be WSYWIG, so a libby can be a dynamically different HQ each game.

[Giga]

Librarians are invaluable in all-comers lists.

[River Black]

I a Kahn White Scars list so I already have a pricey HQ and command squad (mounted). Do you think that in an 1850 point game a libby on a bike would be to much of a point sink for a second hq?

[Jackelope King]

I a Kahn White Scars list so I already have a pricey HQ and command squad (mounted). Do you think that in an 1850 point game a libby on a bike would be to much of a point sink for a second hq?

I've debated something similar myself with my own Marine Bikers army. On one hand, a Librarian with Null Zone would be great insurance against other rock-hard enemy units relying on Invuln Saves, and the psychic hood might as well have been made from gold. On the other, he's not exactly a combat god... just a guy with WS5 and a power weapon when you get down to it, and he gets pricey if you need him to use more than one power a turn.

 

On the other hand, it only costs me 120 more points to spam another pair of MM/HF Landspeeders.

 

I'm personally leaning just a little bit more towards the additional firepower that I know will help me against just about any list I face vs the Librarian who will only shine in a few match-ups. A Librarian is not a bad HQ for an all-comers list, but in this case, he might not be good enough. I'll have to playtest with both and make a choice.

[ShinyRhino]

That's a tough choice of a support HQ for a Hammernator squad.

 

The Chaplain in TDA gives those rerolls to hit, which is great with all those S8 weapons. However, his stanrdard stormbolter will likely go unused (or largely ineffective) against most things you'll be throwing a 5-man squad at.

 

The Librarian in TDA doesn't boost the squad directly, but carries a lot of support powers. Null Zone was already mentioned. He also won't need to buy an additional shooting weapon (stormbolter), because he can choose one of two much better shooting powers in Smite and Avenger. The risk, however, is that they're psychic powers and have to roll for effect before they work. It's not a huge issue, since the Librarian has a pir of wounds, and you're unlikely to lose him in a single round of shooting to Perils of the Warp.

 

The thing that really defines the difference between the TDA Chappy and TDA Libby is their status as Independent Characters. Both can be singled out in close combat, which is where your Hammernaotr squad BELONGS. Your opponent is going to have to decide whether to attack your Hammernator squad, your IC, or split the attacks. Both the Libby and Chappy are about equally skilled in close combat. Same saves, wounds, statline, etc.

The difference is what the opponent GETS from killing one of these ICs. If you kill the chaplain, you take away the squad's bonuses on the charge, and Fearless status. If you have the potential to win the close combat against the Hammernators (due to invulnerable saves, sheer mass of attacks, etc), you actually don't want the Chaplain to die. Why? Because every wound you won by causes an armor save due to Fearless and the No Retreat! rule. While a 2+ save isn't hard to pass, we all know how annoying those failures are for a 400+ point squad. Also, the chaplain's abilities (besides Fearless) only boost the squad whenit charges. If you're stuck in for a while, he's not helping you out muchbeyond being an extra couple of power weapon attacks, which might be pointless for a Hammernator squad since you tend to throw them against high-Toughness targets, or targets with an AV.

Now, if the opponent kills the Librarian, they remove some solid shooting (should you get out of close combat), an annoying Invulnerable Save nullifier (Null Zone), AND your psychic hood. You'd also lose the power weapon attacks from the force weapon, but as stated for the Chaplain, they're not that valuable.

 

All in all, I'd say they're both useful, but the Librarian will keep the squad alive longer by soaking up retaliatory strikes, as well as boosting killpower by causing rerolled Invulnerable saves, and using his shooting (though not both in the same turn unless you upgraded to Epistolary, which is a LOT of points).

 

If I were going against a horde army, I'd take the chaplain for the rerolls and Fearless. Hordes don't tend to have Invulnerables. If going up against MEQ or TEQ, I'd take the Librarian.

[Jackelope King]

Maybe, ShinyRhino, but at this point, the only Horde army out there that doesn't also have a serious psyker threat are the Orks, and Horde Orks aren't enough to worry about that I'd recommend planning for them in an All-Comers list (you get plenty of coverage for them out of all-purpose cleaners like a Dakka Predator or a Rifleman Dread).

[Ming]

I'll agree with Shiny on this one.

 

My list builds tend to include a Librarian, sometimes hanging with the terminators and deep striking in. Null creates a large bubble in the board where opponent invulnerables would have to be rerolled and increase the chances of them failing. A librarian with null and might is awesome if you are HTH alot with enemy elite units. The null bubble can be taken advantage of by all of your weaponry - so the null-barian is best heading into the action where invulnerable saves are thickest. Might means a libby can take down the big bugs and ork kans, at I4. If a librarian is not taken in TDA, he needs force dome as a spell (he has no organic invulnerable save), which is what I usually apply if the libby is going to be attended by sternguard rather than terminators. As a tactic, the libby travels behind the accompanied squad, so if I am charged I can try to control who the libby will be in BTB with, if at all.

 

Where a chaplain shines better IMHO is when accompanying large (10 man) squads, to take advantage of the charge re-roll - and is best with assault marines, not terminators, as a countercharge unit. He is a great value, since the chaplain attacks at I4 and already has a invulnerable save. To bad you cannot get a relic blade! Digital weapons are a way to go here...

[minigun762]

Librarians are invaluable in all-comers lists.

 

As a Chaos player I wish we had some kind of anti-Psyker gear.

 

For my 2 cents, I say if you're not going to run with Pedro/Sternguard or Biker Captain/Bikes, the 2 best choices are probably a Librarian and Chaplain each supporting a squad. I'm still a sucker for the good ol' Assault Squad + Jump Pack Chaplain and its cheap @ 115 points.

[Br.Pat]

Would it be a good idea to give the Librarian Terminator Armour and a Storm Shield. Or is this not worth the points?

 

The Chaplian has a juicy 4+ save to soak up wounds, but all it takes is a couple of power sword hits to kill the librarian.

[ShinyRhino]

Would it be a good idea to give the Librarian Terminator Armour and a Storm Shield. Or is this not worth the points?

 

The Chaplian has a juicy 4+ save to soak up wounds, but all it takes is a couple of power sword hits to kill the librarian.

 

The TDA is worth the points. The addition of the stormshield is not. It's a lot of points to boost your invulnerable save from the TDA by one.

[Tech Brother Torgo]

Wouldn't the SS be a 2 point boost for the librarian (maybe you're thinking about the chaplain)?

[ShinyRhino]

Wouldn't the SS be a 2 point boost for the librarian (maybe you're thinking about the chaplain)?

 

You are correct. I was forgetting that TDA is 2+/5++ and not 2+/4++ like it is for a Captain or Chaplain. Whoopsie!

[LardO'Blood]

If I were going against a horde army, I'd take the chaplain for the rerolls and Fearless. Hordes don't tend to have Invulnerables. If going up against MEQ or TEQ, I'd take the Librarian.

What does TEQ stand for? Tyranid EQuivalent? Or Tau EQuivalent?

I would personally take the chaplain because of fearless, re-rolls and the extra attacks. With the terminators I personally wouldn't give a pricey character, the single unit is worth 200 points and if you attach a 100 point librarian you have a 300 point unit that can get taken out by high initiative (5 or more) CC oriented units.

[Tech Brother Torgo]

Terminator Equivalent

[Br.Pat]

If I were going against a horde army, I'd take the chaplain for the rerolls and Fearless. Hordes don't tend to have Invulnerables. If going up against MEQ or TEQ, I'd take the Librarian.

What does TEQ stand for? Tyranid EQuivalent? Or Tau EQuivalent?

I would personally take the chaplain because of fearless, re-rolls and the extra attacks. With the terminators I personally wouldn't give a pricey character, the single unit is worth 200 points and if you attach a 100 point librarian you have a 300 point unit that can get taken out by high initiative (5 or more) CC oriented units.

 

I disagree. I think that the added price of the Librarian is for extra versatility and protection that would help your whole army. Plus if you give him Terminator Armour and a force shield you effectively have another decent fighter. This set up if especially useful if you give him Null Zone and Might of the Ancients. The latter is basically like giving him a relic blade.

 

Oh and a 3+ invulnearable save make this unit very hard to kill.

[Koremu]

If you are taking a Chaplain, you might as well take Cassius

[Xeonic]

I have a terminator libbie with a storm shield that I run as an epistolary in fun games, who clocks in at 190 pts cold. I'm not going to say that he's a supar awesome buy but look at it this way, if you're giving him termie armor already the SS costs the same as it does for a captain, and gives him a proportionally greater bonus, it's the termie armor that's stupidly expensive. Epistolary makes him an IC/MC murderer as you can cast quickening or might and still use your force weapon.

 

I'm hoping for an SS option for libbie in PA in 6th edition C:SM, personally. ;)

I find it silly that librarians of all SM ICs, and Tigerious in particular don't come stock with an invuln save, and I feel they should have an option to buy one that doesn't cost 40 pts. :unsure:

[minigun762]

If you are taking a Chaplain, you might as well take Cassius

 

For Terminators yeah, thats not bad advice at all.

[Hemphill777]

If you are taking a Chaplain, you might as well take Cassius

 

For Terminators yeah, thats not bad advice at all.

 

I'd say it's good advice in any event. That toughness 6 is baller and you can't get any better for your points. You still get the 4+ invul and while you can't give him TDA for the 2+ armor, you'll probably end up ahead in the long run because due to receiving fewer wounds due to the Toughness 6. Also, because of the Toughness six, he's (almost) immune to instant death, which is always a plus. And as if that wasn't enough to make him points worthy, you get the master-crafted combi-flamer (re-roll hits on the bolter, re-roll wounds on the flamer) whose bolter shots wound on 2+, and you still have the bolt pistol, which lets you take the extra attack for having two ccw. (Deep breath) So yeah, basically as far as Chaplains go, he's the best. The only situation in which I wouldn't take Cassius is if you wanted to include him in an assault squad, for obvious reasons.

[Br.Pat]

Just played against my friend's Tyranids with a Termnator Libby accompanying my Assault Terminators. I found him incredibly effective. Imo the Chaplain made an already hard-hitting unit slightly OP. The Termies are already incredible in Assault so I don't really see the point of an HQ making their attacks even better. A librarian, on the other hand has many other useful benefits.