Assasins

[Sparhawk]

So I bought an army off ebay awhile back and I got a vindicaire assasin and a calidus assasin. I run an ultramarines army and I know that in order to bring one of the assasins I need to bring along an Inquisitor Lord, so my question is really more about how to make an effective marines list incorporating one of these models.

 

I'm not looking for a tourney list or anything but I just hate the thought of having these units and never working them into an army :) .

[The Normish]

I'm afraid that ev er since I read the B&C's guide to the fifth edition, Assassins are quite useless, or so I understand. They still look cool, especially the Vindicare. Other than that, I'm not sure I can help

[Chengar Qordath]

Assassins aren't useless, but they aren't as good as they were in 4th edition. Used right they can still be quite dangerous.

 

The Vindicaire's big strength is his ability to pick which model his attacks hit; use him for things like sniping a hidden powerfist out of a unit before sending in a dreadnought, or to kill heavy weapons.

 

Callidus is still probably the best of the assassins. A Word in Your Ear is a very nice special ability when used right, and their ability to pop up anywhere on the battlefield with perfect accuracy makes them very useful. While you might be tempted to throw the Callidus at the enemy HQ, in my experience they're best used against softer units that stay in the rear of the battlefied. I've had very good results throwing them at heavy weapon squads; the neural shredder is much more effective aganst low leadership models, and such units often lack the cc punch to finish off the Callidus.

[The Normish]

Sorry for the misinformation. I might have misunderstood the role Assassins play.

[Chengar Qordath]

Sorry for the misinformation. I might have misunderstood the role Assassins play.

Your information wasn't completely wrong; assassins did take a big hit when 5th edition came out.

[Sparhawk]

If you don't mind my asking what exactly hurt them. 5th ed is my first edition (I didn't start playing until I was a year out of college ;) ) so I have a tendancy to get a bit lost when the discussion turns to "x was better in 4th ed". I looked over their rules and they seem pretty neat so I'm just having a hard time seeing how they were better.

 

Thanks for taking the time to clue me in

[Magua]

You don't need an Inquisitor Lord -- you can use a regular ol' Inquisitor.

 

It's a big hit to your FOC, though -- either 1 HQ (Inquisitor Lord) or 1 Elite (Inquisitor) slot, plus the Elite slot for the assassin.

 

Vindicaire: Let's get this out of the way. This guy will *never* make his points back. Ever. That said, he's not completely useless. If you're facing an army that relies on sgt/veteran upgrades in a horde, he can be really useful -- kill the Power Klaw in a group of 30 orks, kill the Commissar in a group of 30 guardsmen, or the like. That's what he's good for. But he's simply never going to kill an IC, even with his special ammunition. He doesn't ignore armor saves, only wounds half the time, doesn't cause instant death, etc.

 

Callidus: The Callidus is an HQ/Elites killer. It's what she does. She may do it suicidally, but she *will* make her points back. Ignore the neural shredder, as anyone you're going to send her against is going to have a high Ld anyway, and concentrate on the fact that her C'than blade allows no saves. Opponent fields TH/SS assault terminators? She'll kill some. Tau got you down with their Crisis suit HQ? Dead.

 

Now, she's not perfect. If her target is in a transport, she's useless. No frag grenades means you have to be wary of assaulting into cover. She will be killed by numbers (she may possibly take out a 5-man TH/SS squad, but she will definitely die to a 10-man one -- still, even if she only kills three terminators, she's recouped her points). And even if she wipes out her target, chances are she's still dead. Consider anything beyond the first target a bonus.

 

A Word In Your Ear is another completely different kind of awesome, too.

 

Is it worth it for losing two Elite slots? I personally wouldn't think of using them unless it was a corner case that I knew appealed to their specialty. I wouldn't put either one in an all-comers list, but if I was going against Orks I might consider putting the Vindicaire in, or the Callidus vs Tau.

[Magua]

(As to how they were better: In 4th edition, the rules for removing casualties in assault was different. An assault assassin like the Callidus or the Eversor could charge a mob of units, and if they could kill all the models that were in base to base, they would receive no counterattacks. In 5th, the casualties would be removed from the back, so they would still get counterattacked at full strength.

 

This is what changed Death Cult Assassins from being scalpels that could take on a large unit and win, to 40 pt sinks that will kill a model or two and then be pummeled to death.

 

It also used to be that you'd have to test Ld to shoot at any unit except for the one that was closest. That also helped assassins, obviously.)

[Sparhawk]

Thanks for the insight. As to the regular ol Inquisitor I was under the impression that the allies FOC for DH allowed for 0-1 HQ and 0-1 Elites (I forget about Troops and Fast Attack but that really isn't germane to this discussion anyway), I could always be mistaken (there's a first time for anything I guess ;) ).

 

As for inclusion in an all-comers list that really wasn't the case this was just going to be to take them for a test run, kinda like the car that the lil' old lady only drove to church on Sundays. The main reason for the Inquisitor Lord, other than my possible rules mistake, was that I generally don't carry a secondary HQ with me but I frequently fill get pretty full on elites plus the psychic hood and some of his henchmen abilities seemed to make him a valid and potentially fun choice in a game for S and Gs.

[wizard12]

You don't need an Inquisitor Lord -- you can use a regular ol' Inquisitor.

 

It's a big hit to your FOC, though -- either 1 HQ (Inquisitor Lord) or 1 Elite (Inquisitor) slot, plus the Elite slot for the assassin.

 

Vindicaire: Let's get this out of the way. This guy will *never* make his points back. Ever. That said, he's not completely useless. If you're facing an army that relies on sgt/veteran upgrades in a horde, he can be really useful -- kill the Power Klaw in a group of 30 orks, kill the Commissar in a group of 30 guardsmen, or the like. That's what he's good for. But he's simply never going to kill an IC, even with his special ammunition. He doesn't ignore armor saves, only wounds half the time, doesn't cause instant death, etc.

 

what? since when did AP2 not ignore armour saves?

[Justicar Valius]

You don't need an Inquisitor Lord -- you can use a regular ol' Inquisitor.

 

It's a big hit to your FOC, though -- either 1 HQ (Inquisitor Lord) or 1 Elite (Inquisitor) slot, plus the Elite slot for the assassin.

 

Vindicaire: Let's get this out of the way. This guy will *never* make his points back. Ever. That said, he's not completely useless. If you're facing an army that relies on sgt/veteran upgrades in a horde, he can be really useful -- kill the Power Klaw in a group of 30 orks, kill the Commissar in a group of 30 guardsmen, or the like. That's what he's good for. But he's simply never going to kill an IC, even with his special ammunition. He doesn't ignore armor saves, only wounds half the time, doesn't cause instant death, etc.

 

what? since when did AP2 not ignore armour saves?

T'was exactly what I was thinking. Maybe he hasn't read the DH codex through properly but they do have AP2 and therefore ignore armour saves.

[FlamingDeth]

You don't need an Inquisitor Lord -- you can use a regular ol' Inquisitor.

 

It's a big hit to your FOC, though -- either 1 HQ (Inquisitor Lord) or 1 Elite (Inquisitor) slot, plus the Elite slot for the assassin.

If you're allying Inquisitorial forces you do need an Inquisitor Lord, as you only get one Elite slot to use, which is taken by the assassin.

 

He'll never take out an independent character on his own, but if you're also using Telion in the list, then that's a heap of wounds that you get to allocate, and with three (or four!) allocated wounds you might just be able to do it. He probably won't "make his points back" directly, but taking out that apothecary, or all of the special/heavy weapons in a squad, or what have you gives an awful lot of utility. You can't just measure his usefulness in how many points of models he takes out, rather by how the models he takes out affect the enemy's army. I still don't normally take him in competitive lists as the assassin himself combined with the inquisitor lord and retinue is an awful point sink, but if I could take just the assassin I'd probably do so.

[Magua]

what? since when did AP2 not ignore armour saves?

 

Mea culpa. I meant invulnerable saves. Should've been obvious from the context about ICs. He'll kill a powerfist Space Marine sergeant just fine, but he could spend all game shooting at a Space Marine Captain and still not kill him (6 turns, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 unsaved; factoring in his "do 2 wounds" and "wound on 2+" ammo, and I believe the math works out to ~1.6 unsaved wounds).

 

Also mea culpa on the Inquisitor / Inquisitor Lord thing. Too used to facing GKs.

[Chengar Qordath]

He'll never take out an independent character on his own, but if you're also using Telion in the list, then that's a heap of wounds that you get to allocate, and with three (or four!) allocated wounds you might just be able to do it. He probably won't "make his points back" directly, but taking out that apothecary, or all of the special/heavy weapons in a squad, or what have you gives an awful lot of utility. You can't just measure his usefulness in how many points of models he takes out, rather by how the models he takes out affect the enemy's army. I still don't normally take him in competitive lists as the assassin himself combined with the inquisitor lord and retinue is an awful point sink, but if I could take just the assassin I'd probably do so.

That's where the Vindicair's real strength is; he will almost never earn back his points directly, but used in a good combination with other units he can be deadly. Kill the powerklaw in a giant mob of Orks, and then tie the entire squad up with a dreadnought they have no chance of killing. Honestly, I think too much focus on having a unit earn back its points is detrimental; the game is not about fighting with a dozen different units, but with a single unified army. I've had games where my Seraphim jump troops earned back a fraction of their points, but still played a key role in allowing me to win the battle by altering the tactical situation.