JOTWW question - Yea I know UGH

[Lumdin]

Okay JOTWW wording says the line is drawn from priest along the board 24 inches out.

 

Now my question is this, if your target is on the second floor of a building then -

 

1) you can't target him because he is not on the board? or he is not effected because he is not on the ground?

 

2) you can target him and the line is straight along the board and the line is more like a vertical plane as thick (roughly) as a tape measures edge?

(meaning that all models no matter what elevation that can be effected by jotww have to take the intiative test?)

 

Maybe this has been answered. I thought of the line as a vertical plane going up from the rulers edge.

 

I would like to hear opinions

[Karack Blackstone]

We may need a ruling on this, although the major question is whether the force of the ground opening up is enough to shred up the height of the building in question.

 

Interesting idea, no clue yet. Would prefer a GW ruling, or else for sanity's sake I'd say no, simply because of the above thought being hard to rule on and may bog down the game by making it no longer fun due to a "skewed" ruling in your favor.

 

Maybe if the foundation is along the ground that the line is going through, but even then it's like taking a hit to a vehicle, I'd say. Roll for pen strength and the like...

[JamesI]

logically, it should be unable to affect models on floors higher than the ground. By RAW, its unclear.

[VorpalDoom]

It's actually very clear by RAW. You draw a line from the rune priest 24 inches in any direction. WarHammer 40,000 is not a 2D game. It's 3D.

 

If you've ever graphed in 3D, this might make sense. If not... I'll try to explain it:

 

 

On a 2D graph, to create a line, you need two coordinates. For the sake of 40k, let's assume X & Y are the long and short edges of the table.

Similarly, let's assume your Rune Priest is at (14 , 7). Whilst his target is at (14, 18), and there's another guy behind him at (14 , 20).

 

However, since this is a 3D game, you need depth. In this case, adding depth would mean adding a third axis.... "Z".

Z determines how close or far away someone is, scale in some senses of the manner. But in this case... let's assume the Rune Priest is now on (14 , 7 , 0). Ground level.

 

His target(s) are on: (14 , 18 , 4) & (14 , 20 , 0).

 

Draw a line from the rune priest to your first target (the one with the Z axis of "4").

 

 

this might be a bit hard to visualize, but lines are NOT stuck on being placed on a 2D area. Draw the line from the rune priest, up. It's RAW, and it works.

 

 

Does that mean going up a floor or two makes you less vulnerable to JotWW? Yes.

Just like it protects against: Blast templates, Beasts, and Cavalry.

It also obtains better LoS, and sometimess avoids your target's cover.

 

Remember, LoS is determined regardless of the target's level, if he's on a 2nd foor, behind a wall, but above a doorway, you can't shoot him just because you see the doorway. Same logic applies here.

 

 

RAI? Likely shouldn't be affected... Fluff-wise? When it tells me a crack in the earth, large enough to suck a Trygon up appears... I can't see how a tank or a building doesn't get affected... sounds like RAW is a good balance between RAI and Fluff.

[DV8]

It's actually very clear by RAW. You draw a line from the rune priest 24 inches in any direction. WarHammer 40,000 is not a 2D game. It's 3D.

 

You're not quoting the entire rule. You draw a line from the Rune Priest 24 inches in any direction along the table.

 

That would seem to indicate that the line runs along the table, and not diagonally through space. Again RAI. RAW is in typical GW fashion, "more than less then unhelpful".

 

 

DV8

[stinkenheim]

as said, the line runs along table and so doesnt get angled up of down depending on where your model is positioned. it simply opens a crack in the floor, not in mid air.

[Oldenhaller]

Heh....air-crack

[/childish]

 

sorry, but yeah, along the table stops things being off of it as it's described in the FAQ as being "a hairline with no specific thickness" which is 2d and thus must be along the table elsewise making it 3d

 

~O

[stinkenheim]

the only time i would agree with it affecting models on scenery is if said scenery were a hill.

[VorpalDoom]

I don't do this often but... use a dictionary for the word "Along" you will see it doesn't mean "on"... It means everything but. If they meant it to be "on the table" then they would have put "on" ... but it says along, and along does not mean on.

[stinkenheim]

so if i were driving along the road does that mean im actually flying?

 

the fact that the description talks about a crack opening beneath the feet of the enemy, and the rule states the line runs along the table leads me to conclude that the line only travels on the board and does not run up the side of buildings etc.

[VorpalDoom]

Not at all, you happen to be on the road. The use of "along" in that statement would simply be incorrect usage of the word; nor is it common usage to say "drive along the road"

 

 

Secondly...

According to that, if any model is on any terrain, they are immune to JotWW. If the RAI is "on" and not "along" then placement on any terrain would negate the effects of JotWW.... so, keep it simple. Draw a line in any direction from the rune priest towards a model in line of sight.

[stinkenheim]

its prfectly possible to be in scenery but still on the table (as in ground level), and the idea that terrain would therefore negate JOWW is silly as it specifically states in the rules that it passes through terrain. The thing i am trying to say is that the line represents a chasm opening in the griound and as such shouldnt be angled towards units high in building liek normal shooting but instead follows the rules of the power and targets just those units on 'ground level'.

 

oh btw i did look it up in a dictionary and one of the meanings of 'along' is refering to direction.

 

Definition

along preposition (DIRECTION)

/əˈlɒŋ//-ˈlɑːŋ/ prep

from one part of a road, river, etc. to another

example- a romantic walk along the beach/river

 

so if what you are saying is correct and 'along' doesn't mean 'on' then surely the example in the dictionary is wrong and these people are walking in the air, they may in fact have lost their underwear aah ooh....

[Marshal Wilhelm]

along |əˈlô ng; əˈlä ng |

preposition

1 moving in a constant direction on (a path or any more or less horizontal surface) : soon we were driving along a narrow road | he saw Gary run along the top of the wall | [as adv. ] she sailed along | we continued to plod along.

• used metaphorically to refer to the passage of time or the making of progress : they can be helped along the road to modernity | we passed along snatches of information | you'll pick up some valuable tips along the way [as adv. ] : they asked how the construction was coming along.

2 extending in a more or less horizontal line on : cars were parked along the grass border | the path along the cliff | hotels are springing up all along the coast.

 

I am with Stinkenheim for RAW and RAI.

[Lumdin]

So the consesus is that the power can only be used at table top level?

 

So anyome in an elevated location like a building or scenary would not be affected.

 

Kinda makes the power a lot less useful. I am not trying to start problems but I saw it one way and used it the way I thought it should work.

 

I kinda feel sorry for GW because I am sure when they play test they don't always figure out how people come up with ways to use rules or powers.

 

I was trying to think outside the box. Had a pesky path finder group I couldn't get out of cover and figured I would try.

 

Thanks so far.

[VorpalDoom]

Different dictionary's have different meanings, and multiple meanings of the same word. You chose the meaning that most backed up your position.

 

The river snakes like an S, but you take and straight path from point a to point b, but you still move along the river.

 

Considering "along" refers to a horizontal plane is foolish. you can move along non straight lines, and move along things that are vertical.

 

Hotels springing up along the coast, surely. the coast isn't straight, nor flat... not any coast i've seen at least.

 

 

 

In game terms... if being on a second floor of a building isn't being on the table makes you immune to the "ground level" attack that is JotWW... then I'm unsure how being up on top of a large hill would make you less invulnerable. But, if it only affects models on ground level (being on a hill is not ground level), then indeed, being on any terrain makes you immune to the effects of JotWW... I don't think that's the case.

 

Simply draw an infinitely thin line from point a to point b, regardless of where point b is in 3d space.

 

Even fluff wise, if a chasm opens up in the earth, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that buildings can be damaged by this chasm, things fall in, including poor Bob the Marine on the 3rd floor? Then again, applying reason to the fantastic world that is WarHammer 40,000, or even the rules is illogical. RAW, it says draw a line along the table, if it arcs up, it is still following the table, just not in the most efficent path. You're completing the requirements in the rules. even so, models have to be placed on the table, and terrain is considered part of the table, if I'm not mistaken, thus there's no reason it can't affect models up.

 

Using the idea that the line must be ON the table, the rune priest would not be able to use the power if he was on a 2nd floor. The line must start from the rune priest.... can't be on the table in that case, so we draw a line "along" the table instead, as the rules say. So yes, along doesn't mean you have to be "on" something.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I didn't look for meanings in the dictionary that suited the 'nays'. I typed along and that was the entry.

 

I don't think we said along must be a straight line. We said horizontal (no change in z axis). JoTWW says straight line.

You can't move along something vertically ~ it moves up, up the wall.

You can move along a mountain ridge, though. I will agree with you there. I will give you the why it can't be used on a similar trajectory to being fired 'up/along' the mountain ridge. It needs the 'earth/dirt'

 

Foolish or not, that is the dictionary definition. I have recently found out that curling is a sport. I could do it sitting in an armchair. I can't see how it is in the same field as basketball or football. But it is a sport. That is the definition.

 

Think of it this way, the hill continues from the table top. Thus, anything in that line of the Power, in that same '0' z axis, even to the top of the hill, is fair game.

A building has multiple floors. Only the floor touching the table top will be affected. The second floor doesn't continue from the table top but is sespended by the walls. In effect it is inert and not able to be affected by the power running along the table top.

The Power only travels along the medium of 'earth' (whatever your gaming table is representing) Once it cannot continue travelling by 'earth' it will stop working.

 

It is not a spell such as a fireball or a laser beam. You cannot alter it's z axis.

 

That is why, after running along the table top, it doesn't keep going up floor levels.

 

I am not saying what you are saying isn't sound or reasonable. I am saying, it is not like that.

 

Saying you can't apply logic to a fantasy game doesn't hold water. It IS fantasy, based on reality. All the fantastical stuff interacts with the reality we know.

 

*Fluff. It opens a line in the ground and stuff falls into the ground. The ground then closes up behind them. They don't fall into the warp. That is why the power runs along the table top.

It isn't simply ripping the material between real and warp space, which happens to kill men. It is opening the ground.

 

** I would suggest they didn't think of what would happen when the RP fired off JOTWW on the 1st floor of a building. So this means that you'll either have to play it as running along whatever level the RP is on or that regardless of what level the RP is on, the JOTWW drops straight to the table top and then goes from there.

 

***Here is my logic test for why it isn't a line that goes up to the Heavens (I know that was not your real contention). Take something to a level of ridiculousness and see if it still seems right.

You go to a mates house and he surprises you with a massive model building. It has a hundred floors. You start playing and he happens to have squads on every level. It is your go and the RP fires off JOTWW. You happen to cross 10 guys on each level. He needs to take 1000 i tests. It just doesn't hold up.

[SamaNagol]

The tabletop counts as the lowest level of all terrain pieces. So no, it does not effect any models on first or second floors, just ground floor.

[Wildfire]

My answer: since templates and blast markers generally only work on one level, I'd say Jaws works only on the ground level.

 

Real answer: until a FAQ answer comes out, we won't know for sure. Work it out with your gaming group.

[whitewolfmxc]

so all you guys havent thought of , like a template you Chose a level to work ? even on a building you Are still standing on a "Ground" which is still "On the table" , then i dont see why you cant crack the floor of a single level of a buidling if you can crack open the crust of a Much thicker ground (fluff / common sense wise) , and the wording didnt say you how Tall is that LINE when you measure it , like the FAQ said , the line has no thickness (in terms of width . thickness ) its simply a Straight line , so i dont see a problem with raising the line to a different level to start measuring it

 

so to be failr , if i encounter such issue with the power , i will chose a level to target (and of course discuss this with my opponent)

[Lumdin]

Doh duplicate post was stuck in my blackberry.

[stinkenheim]

saying that if they are on the ground floor of scenery some how makes them not on the table is foolish, its like arguing that models are unaffected because they are on bases and as such are not on the table. whether the scenery i based or not it is always assumed that the footings of the piece are the same level as the table.

also every gaming group ive been part of has classed the hill as part of the table surface which is why i said that imo the power would work on hills, i realise not everyones group would play the same but to me it makes sense.

 

am i right in saying that the power opens a crakc in the ground, people fall in and the ground coses up again? if so i fail to see how a crack in the floor of a building is going to kill someone ouright as i'm fairly sure if the floor in my room were to collapse and i landed in the living room i'd still be alive.

 

Its really not that difficult a power to get your head around, the crack is at ground level and runs 24" from the rune priest, simple as. it shouldnt be fired up buildings and such like, it justs opens a crack in the ground...

 

If the people are saying it can fire through midair then are you measuirng the distance the crack is moving up the side of the building, because at least that seems like your not trying to eek out an adantage that the rules don't allow. It really does seem a bit like the no LOS arguement, people are trying to make the power seem better than it is by saying it can do things which the rules say it can't.

[Wolfeslad]

The line drawn along the table represents the opening of the ground, the rule states whatever the line touchs takes the test, if your up a building your fine, unless we are saying that the building gets swallowed too? :)

[Wildfire]

rules /= fluff. We're discussing rules here, trying to apply logic to psychic powers from 38000 into a fictional future is pointless.

[whitewolfmxc]

The line drawn along the table represents the opening of the ground, the rule states whatever the line touchs takes the test, if your up a building your fine, unless we are saying that the building gets swallowed too? ;)

 

 

Thats the problem , The line is virtual , in reality it doesnt "Touch anything" , your line dont magically appear and go through models, you have to put the line (tape) on top of the models , and the rules doesn't say how tall is that tape to measure , so why wouldnt Anything under it be affected as written ?

 

Thats the point of argument for me , of course its not the case for multi level buildings as my previous post suggested , i still think its still one target level , one line , one straight pile of dead bodies XD

[Godhead]

Jaws opens a gaping chasm in the ground and people fall in. It passes through terrain because it is basically like trees falling into the chasm as well. Realistically, if you are on the second floor of a building and the foundation splits and opens up, then you could very well fall in as well. From what i've read ground floor is the best place to be in the event of an earthquake. Which is basically what happens with jaws. Jaws doesn't affect stuff that passes over terrain, so anything on the ground even if it is on the second floor could realistically be affected imo.